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Adding a "finesse" quality to light weapons in order to allow you to use your dex for attack rolls without a feat seems to be a fairly common house rule, and I'll be implementing this in an upcoming game, but I also hate to eliminate feats from a game, especially those that are likely to serve as prerequisites or be included as a class feature. This leaves me with the question of what to do with Weapon Finesse.
Here's what I'm considering right now. Weapon Finesse allows you to use your dex mod in place of your strength mod for damage when wielding a finesse weapon. You still may only apply half your dex mod towards an off-hand weapon, and you do NOT get to add 1.5 of your dex mod when wielding a weapon in two hands. This only works in melee combat, thus, you may not apply your dex bonus to damage when throwing a dagger, for example.
I figure this will give a little bump to rogues, makes monks a little less MAD, and could help out rangers and bards in a more minor sense. Question is, though, it it unbalancing to make this change? Are there any game-shattering implications I'm missing here?
It seems to get people's goat a lot, but experiments in play are fairly inconclusive on the subject. It has a chance to add up if combined with other house rules, especially if 3.5 or other third party material is used, but that's true of anything really. In a vacuum of other rules? "It depends."
It used to really wind me up, but now I've seen it work okay once, it's not quite as bad. I think the reason I used to get so emphatic about never applying dex to damage is that the majority of people who suggested it to me were trying to skew mechanics to increase the bonuses of being a glass cannon while subtly removing the "glassy" aspect of such a build. Glass cannons are just not a good style of character for a long-term game, I'm convinced.
What might help (you might have already considered this and didn't feel the need to voice it) is to specify that Dex mod counts as precision damage and is restricted similarly.
Also, as your game progresses, keep a watch on spells/effects/items that boost Dex- not necessarily because of the damage change, but because it now can have an effect on nearly every stat category on a character that remotely wants it to.
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the problem with this is that it turns strenth into an essentially useless stat.
under normal circumstances
dex effects AC, and hitting at range.
STR effects Melee hitting and Melee damage.
with weapon finess
Dex effects AC, Melee hitting and ranged hitting
STR effects only Melee damage.
with YOUR weapon finess
Dex effects AC, Melee hitting, ranged hitting, AND melee damage.
STR doesnt do much at all.
it makes dex bonuses way too strong.
personally I think that your correct that weapon finesse is a little weak. but I think that the proper way to fix weapon finesse is to have weapon finesse allow you to double your dex bonus to the critical confirmation roll. that way finess fighters tend to get more crit confirmations (which can be very effective) but they are not otherwise overpowered.
I like idea of making dex-modified damage precision based, and even though I am a little concerned that the feat seems to render strength obsolete, it only does so with very specific weapons, and the fact that you aren't allowed to add dex-and-a-half helps to mitigate the damage potential that's attainable. Beyond that, strength is still a prerequisite for a number of staple feats that contribute to damage boosting (in fact, maybe I should rule that you can't use dex for damage when using feats such as power attack?).
In addition, fighter-types are generally wearing heavy armor as well, which severly hampers how useful dexterity is in regards to AC. If it really becomes problematic, maybe it could also be altered so that your armor's max dex bonus applies as a cap to dex-based damage as well?
Even though I really like the idea of weapon finesse helping out crit confirmation, I've never seen that mechanic come into play enough to make it attractive.
I realize that there are a lot of potential problems with this change, I do want agile warriors a bit more viable than they currently are. I'm just hoping to catch as many potential problems as possible before giving it a whirl.
Even though I really like the idea of weapon finesse helping out crit confirmation, I've never seen that mechanic come into play enough to make it attractive.
the mechanic comes into play when the player uses the correct weapon.
what i mean is... when the player is using a weapon with a high crit range and uses keen or a feat to lower the crit range to 15 and up. suddenly they have a 1/4 chance on the die and their weapon finesse makes it even more likey they will get the crit. later in the game they can add all kinds of abilities to those crits.
it allows the finesse fighter to have a different feel than a strength fighter. they have to build differently and consider battle differently than the guy with the big warmaul.
but your the GM. do as you see fit for your game. just keep in mind that savey players will realize that STR is kind of useless if you get all of the same benefits from DEX + AC.
Here's what you do to make sure it works fine and isn't broken:
Don't let them ignore strength completely. Track encumbrance both in and out of combat. In combat, a low strength can mean great difficulty in just finding a light enough suit of armour and a pair of light weapons, if you also include potion, wand and misc gear weight. Out of combat, track backpack weight as it can affect overland speed. Being able to get to the destination in three days instead of two can sometimes make a huge difference if the party needs to hurry.
Alright, how about this as a tentative revision...
Weapon Finesse: When using a weapon with the "finesse" quality, you may, as a free action, use your dexterity modifier in place of your strength modifier to determine your melee damage for one round. This is considered precision-based damage, and is not multiplied on a critical hit. You may not use this feat on any round in which you activate a combat feat with a prerequisite strength score.
Yeah, I suppose you have a point. Well, if the extra damage was capped by your armor's max dex bonus, and it wasn't multiplied on a crit, would it be reasonable?
In my gaming group (across several campaigns) we let Weapon Finesse add half the dex bonus, rounded down, to damage. This does not stack with str bonus to damage, so the weapon wielder must choose which bonus to apply.
Our main reason for being discontent with by-the-book Weapon Finesse, was that it's yet another game mechanic which favors high strength and two handed melee weapons, making all melee'ers go with the same weapon (2h sword) and thus making the game less diverse and fun.
In my gaming group (across several campaigns) we let Weapon Finesse add half the dex bonus, rounded down, to damage. This does not stack with str bonus to damage, so the weapon wielder must choose which bonus to apply.
Our main reason for being discontent with by-the-book Weapon Finesse, was that it's yet another game mechanic which favors high strength and two handed melee weapons, making all melee'ers go with the same weapon (2h sword) and thus making the game less diverse and fun.
I like this. I really like this.
I have developed a second feat in the Weapon Finesse tree that adds a character's dexterity modifier to damage in place of strength. So, the "swashbuckling" swordsman can be totally dex based: AC, attack and damage, skills, initiative. Sounds overpowered, right? Well, tonight in game he took dexterity damage from poison, and with his low constitution (he figured he would never get hit) he kept failing his fortitude save and ended up loosing 9 points of dexterity, making him effectively useless at EVERYTHING he is normally good at.
Long story short: you are the DM, try new abilities (and old ones too), simply find the way to challenge the reward you have already given your player.
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dex to damage, even if it's not precision damage isn't that overpowered.
some of the best combat feats still require a decent strength
with a lower strength, gear is harder to carry, which lowers mobility
and you are effectively putting all your eggs in one basket. making that bonus to dexterity more awesome at the cost of causing that dexterity penalizing poison, spell, or whatever to hinder you even worse than normal.
Yeah, I suppose you have a point. Well, if the extra damage was capped by your armor's max dex bonus, and it wasn't multiplied on a crit, would it be reasonable?Just a note, precision damage IS multiplied on a crit (see Duelist.) What is NOT multiplied on a crit are additional dice of damage.
While the Precise Strike ability implies it deals precision damage, it is never actually called "precision damage." Also, look under the entry for "Standard Action" in the Combat section of the PRD. Under Critical Hit is this excerpt:
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Honestly Duelist looks like an oddball case, but I'll just chalk it up to people not paying attention, like how Dex is used for ranged attack rolls for spells but range increments are not (if you have to aim to the point Dex becomes a factor, isn't it harder the farther away the target is?).
The argument of encumbrance making Strength worthy of being taken only applies as long as the players don't have access to extra-dimensional storage spaces (and the Handy Haversack only being 2000 GP can exacerbate this). So this means that it's most relevant during the low levels, but if someone expects a long-term game, they may try to "tough it out."
I would be in favor of letting both Strength and Dex apply to a given weapon strike, so that someone with a tremendous penalty to Strength but a massive Dex score can't ignore their Strength penalty at will (example: the feared 3.0 kittens).
Simply don't let Dex get away with murder when it comes to athletic skill usage (you need muscles to get good speed), and let Strength damage have a leg up on Dexterity damage by having an advantageous rate of increase on critical hits. Strength won't be totally useless, even if Dex is a "loaded" stat by comparison.
I would be in favor of letting both Strength and Dex apply to a given weapon strike, so that someone with a tremendous penalty to Strength but a massive Dex score can't ignore their Strength penalty at will (example: the feared 3.0 kittens).
I think this might just make the problem worse. A character using the 'dex to damage' rules may still have 13 or 14 strength so that they could wear decent armor and so that they could take the power attack feat. In which case this would increase their effectiveness, not decrease it.
- I give everyone either his/her dex bonus to hit or strength bonus whichever is higher, effectively giving weapon finesse as a bonus feat to everyone.
I do not want to have any midget to be a deadly warrior with massive damage, pixies will own your ass.. and stuff like that, so what I am considering is building on feat chains much like power attack does but with a dex flavour. Dex characters can compensate quite a bit already, escape artist, weapon finesse, piranha strike, deadly aim and a halfling with bonus to dex and a size bonus to hit will be more lethal than a big orc quite quickly.
That said a feat for half dex bonus to damage instead of strength doesnt seem to be a problem to me as long as it doesnt stack with a strength bonus but stacks with a strength penalty normally, I would put piranha strike as a prerequiste so as not to make it easily accesible to every 1 HD pixie. Requiring a two feat investment even with weapon finesse as a bonus feat.
This is a fine modifiaction and does not break balance. There is already Dervish dance, which is scimitar specific that does this, as well as a +1 weapon enhancement. Short Version: using Dex for damage is already viable, this just allows it to be viable from lower levels. I'm completely at peace with this.
This is a fine modifiaction and does not break balance. There is already Dervish dance, which is scimitar specific that does this, as well as a +1 weapon enhancement. Short Version: using Dex for damage is already viable, this just allows it to be viable from lower levels. I'm completely at peace with this.
To be fair dervish dance is rather limited in it's use.
I am not at all a fan of the agility enhancement, a magic patch to fix things is poor design in my mind. It should be possible to make viable without a magical trinket.
The enhancement is considerably more costly than a single feat in most cases since it doesnt work well for a 2handed weapon to keep up with damage, you likely have to get it two times and becomes more costly as you get more powerful weapons.
I went with the following houserule:
Weapon Finesse: Allows adding half the Dexterity modifier, rounded down, instead of Strength bonus to damage rolls with light and finesse weapons. Strength penalty is always subtracted from weapon damage.
It's more or less what I'm doing, too. Weapon Finesse like the rules know it now is automatic, and if you take a feat, you get to use it for damage.
Just try it out. Tell everyone it's provisional and that you might withdraw the change again if you find it unsupportable (and will allow character retooling at that point).
Even though you can now dump strength altogether, strength still wins out if you want the mostest damage, especially since the leading damage strategies rely on big, hunking weapons and stuff that is based off strength. Or, at least, that's my opinion. See for yourself how it plays out. That has the advantage of seeing how that specific rule will work in your specific party. Party dynamics and player preferences can influence stuff like that a lot.
I went with the following houserule:
Weapon Finesse: Allows adding half the Dexterity modifier, rounded down, instead of Strength bonus to damage rolls with light and finesse weapons. Strength penalty is always subtracted from weapon damage.
That is what I think of using as well, with the addition that weapon finesse as it is now is a basic given, people can use either dex or strength for attacks with an appropriate weapon/natural weapon.
Aside from that I think I'll allow a feat to extend weapon finesse to some other weapons like most one handed slashing and piercing weapons, and possibly a few others (like quarterstaves).
That is what I think of using as well, with the addition that weapon finesse as it is now is a basic given, people can use either dex or strength for attacks with an appropriate weapon/natural weapon.
Yes, yes, I forgot to write that anyone can us Dex modifier instead of Str on attack rolls with light or finesse weapons.
My 2cp:
If you're going to (a) make Finesse a "free" option, not costing a feat, and also (b) have it apply to damage as well, then (c) just get rid of Strength altogether. Seriously -- make a "physical prowess" stat that covers everything Str and/or Dex used to, and be done with it. Otherwise, the scale is tipped so far in favor of Dex as an Uber-Stat that there's no point in including pathetic stat wanna-bes like Strength will end up being. (By the same logic, merge Cha into Wisdom and just call it a "willpower" stat.)
Or, if you want to keep six stats, make them equal. Mug Dexterity and steal about a third to half of its myriad uses, and give them to other stats. Shuffle other stuff around so that Charisma has everyday use for people other than bards, paladins, and sorcerers.