Hi, just wondering if I'm on target here.
I have only recently come across the Orc Bloodline (since I only own all the hardcovers. No orcs of Golarion)
I had a TWWarrior Fighter Archetype build I was really happy with. It utilised Combat Expertise, Breakguard, Imp Disarm, Gtr Disarm and the Penetrating Strike, Gtr Penetrating Strike Feats.
I had found it pretty strong in the one offs our group has.
I redid the build, dumping those feats in favor of
Skill focus: Survival, Eldrtich Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, Gtr Eldrtich Heritage, Quicken SLA- Touch of Rage, Quicken SLA- Power of Giants.
6 feats for 6.
I have yet to play the new version yet.
I'm thinking a few things.
Aside from the extra CHA needed for the heritage feats (This build is really only doable with a 25 point buy and relying on a headband of CHA that the Heritage feats are far Better.
1. Optimally a TWF is all about massive amounts of damage to drop a for ASAP. The +6 Inherent to strength, +4 from Power of Giants is spread over a level range and caps at +5 in to hit and damage bonus. That applies to ANY CM you do, not just disarm.
This is vs the +4 to disarm you'd get with the first build. Disarm is a nice thing. But alot of monsters don't use manufactured weapons.
2. I am unsure if Touch of Rage and Power of Giants are legal to work with Quicken SLA. I'm pretty sure they are, but at what level could you take the feat? The description doesn't say what the caster level is rated at.
You don't get Power of Giants till level17, so 19th level is when you could quicken it, but am unsure of what level could legally quicken Touch of Rage.
The bouns is eventually +9 to hit and damage for one round, so being able to quicken it 3/day would be awesome for those times you can full attack.
3. I have always liked the penetrating strike feats. Particularly for TWF's who can't blow through DR as well as a 2 hander but at the levels they are available at, you should probably be able to overcome most DR any way. One weapon Mithral, One Cold Iron. Enchantment levels etc.
All up I'd say the value of the Heritage feats is HEAPS better than the Disarm/Breakguard Chain. In fact ANY fighter that can afford the CHA and wants to be good at CM's is probably better off just taking Lunge (so the CM doesn't provoke) and the orc bloodline and getting the STR/Damage bonus to all attacks and CM's
Thoughts?
with 25 point buy (human) you're stat array should probably be
STR 17 (20)
DEX15 (17)
CON14
INT 10
WIS 9
CHA 15
Now you're relying on your Belt of Physical Perfection to use GTWF (so if it's dispelled you lose your lowest chance attack-no biggie)
and a +2Cha Item for Power of giants (you can't take the feat till 17th level anyway so around then you'll start looking at buying 2wishes if you REALLY don't wanna have your headband dispelled)
As a human with favored bonus going to skills you get 4 per level, which is nice.
The -1 to will saves sucks but there is a trait to get that back and the build does have Improved Iron Will...
So you're saying that with 25 point buy and at level 17 and a lot of gold invested in headbands of Charisma and a dead feat in Skill Focus: Survival that you can be +2 better at combat maneuvers while provoking attacks of opportunity.
I'm confused.
This is like... a wizard wanting to specialize in rays, but deciding not to take any rays until they get energy drain.
No. Not at all.
I'm saying that at levels 11, 15, 19 you get a cumulative +2 STR from strength of the beast.
this is +3 to hit or ANY CM, rather than +4 to one of them.
This strength boosts also add a fair bit to your DPR, both in regular damage and TWRend.
I'm also saying that as soon as you get quicken on touch of Rage you can add huge bonuses to CM's or hit and damage and will saves. This ability scales and caps at +9 for you. Wielding 2 speed weapons that's garunteeing all your 9attacks land (Barring natural 1's)
The +2 Headband is not needed for ANY of this.
You only need to buy a +2Headband AT level 17 IF you want the Power of Giants ability. A +2Headband is cheap at this level and the ability this feat grants is awesome. 15minutes of LARGE size, used in 1minute increments. +6 Bonus to STR, 40more HP from the CON bonus, -1AC, +4Natural Armor and large weapons, reach. Makes you an absolute wreaking machine.
Seems a better deal to me is all.
On a point buy, for an orc bloodline fighter, you might as well start with Cha at 12, and only bump it up if it makes the point buy more efficient (since the higher stats are more expensive)
There isn't any benefit to having the score until the powers are available and worth using -
level 4 fighter
weapon focus, weapon spec, ...
always on +1/+2
level 4 fighter
skill focus, eldritch heritage: orc, quicken sla: touch of rage:
swift action for +2/+2, limited uses
And improved eldritch heritage isn't even available until level 11.
On a point buy, for an orc bloodline fighter, you might as well start with Cha at 12, and only bump it up if it makes the point buy more efficient (since the higher stats are more expensive)
There isn't any benefit to having the score until the powers are available and worth using -
level 4 fighter
weapon focus, weapon spec, ...
always on +1/+2level 4 fighter
skill focus, eldritch heritage: orc, quicken sla: touch of rage:
swift action for +2/+2, limited usesAnd improved eldritch heritage isn't even available until level 11.
Here's what I'm thinking, but I think I need to re-arrange the feats a bit to get Quicken SLA-Touch of Rage earlier...
1TWF, Weapon Fcs: Scimitar, Skill Fcs: Survival
2Bravery, Quickdraw
3Defensive Flurry +1, Eldritch Heritage-Orc Touch of Rage
4Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
5Twin Blades +1, Iron Will
6Power Attack
7Defensive Flurry +2, ITWF
8Gtr Wpn Fcs: Scimitar, Retrain Quickdraw for Doubleslice
9Twin Blades +2, Double strike, Improved Iron Will
10Combat Reflexes
11Improved Balance (-1/-1), Defensive Flurry +3, Improved Eldritch Heritage-Strength of the Beast +2
12Dazing Assault (swap Lunge for TWR)
13Twin Blades +3, Equal Opportunity, Quicken SLA-Touch of Rage
14Pin Down
15Perfect Balance (0/0), Defensive Flurry +4,Gtr Wpn Spl, Strength of the Beast +4
16GTWF
17Twin Blades +4, Deft Double strike Eldritch Heritage-Power of Giants.
18Feat
19Deadly Defense, Defensive Flurry +5, Quicken SLA-Power of Giants, Strength of the Beast +6
20Weapon Mastery, Feat (swap Dazing Assault for Stunning Assault)
For CM's at lower levels, I can either by potions of enlarge person or talk to my party wiz about getting regular buffs. That will give me Reach so I won't suffer AOO's when I CM somebody.
At 17 (late, I know) I'll be able to do it myself.
I have 2 feats still available at 18 and 20.
I like Penetrating Strike and Gtr but maybe they aren't as good as they look this late since I should have mithral weapons at high enough enchant to bypass most things.
Maybe Crit Focus, Staggering Crit?
OK,
I've had a good play with the buildand think I've managed to get the feats in an 'optimal' order, so I'm not 'carrying' a feat that has no use for a whole bunch of levels.
[spoiler=Orc Bloodline TWF]
1TWF, Weapon Fcs: Scimitar, Iron Will
2Bravery, Quickdraw
3Defensive Flurry +1, Improved Iron Will
4Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
5Twin Blades +1, Skill Fcs: Survival
6Power Attack
7Defensive Flurry +2, ITWF
8Gtr Wpn Fcs: Scimitar, Retrain Quickdraw for Lunge
9Twin Blades +2, Double strike, Eldritch Heritage-Orc Touch of Rage
10Doubleslice
11Improved Balance (-1/-1), Defensive Flurry +3, Quicken SLA- Touch of Rage
12Dazing Assault, Retrain Lunge for TWR
13Twin Blades +3, Equal Opportunity, Improved Eldritch Heritage-Strength of the Beast +2
14Combat Reflexes
15Perfect Balance (0/0), Defensive Flurry +4, Gtr Wpn Spl, Strength of The Beast +4
16GTWF, Retrain Dazing Assault for Stunning Assault
17Twin Blades +4, Deft Double strike Eldritch Heritage-Power of Giants.
18Critical Focus
19Deadly Defense, Defensive Flurry +5, Quicken SLA-Power of Giants, Strength of the Beast +6
20Weapon Mastery, Staggering Critical, Retrain Stunning Assault for Stunning Critical
This I think is much More Usable.
You get Improved Iron Will by level 3 and true believer trait helps fix up that will save a bit.
Your Wpn Fcs/Specialization and gtr version feats are all taken as early as possible (1level late for GTR WPN SPL)
Quicken Touch of Rage is taken at 11, again, pretty much the earliest you qualify.
You have Lunge available from level 8, when you really start to need reach because of all the large foes and you can use It to perform CM's without provoking.
Quickdraw is a decent ranged option for you at low levels. Through TWF Chackrams with a range of 30 ft and still applying your strength mod to damage/weapon training also applies. You swap it out at 8, when it starts to fall off in damage output vs magic weapons, but you learn to TWF as a standard action at 9 anyway.
I'd appreciate it if anyone has any better ideas.
Wielding 2 speed weapons at 20 your full attack looks like this:
[spoiler=Attack/Damage]
Taking weapon Training and full power attack into account Final Full Attack is:
BAB20 +2(Gtr Wpn Fcs)+ 4(Twin Blades)+2(Dueling Gloves)+ 8(STR) +3(Belt of Physical Perfection) +5(wpn enhancement, speed)-1(TWF w Scimitars) -6(PA) 37/37/37/37/32/32/27/27/22 ave 7 hits
Damage Primary= +5, Speed, keen, ghost touch Scimitar
D6+ 5(wpn enhance)+11(STR,Belt) +4(Gtr Wpn Spl) +4(Twin Blades) +12(PA)+2(Dueling Gloves)= ave 41 on full attack (Damage = 37 on standard action)
Damage Secondary= +5, Speed, Menacing, keen Scimitar
D6+ 5(wpn enhance) +11(STR,Belt) +4(Gtr Wpn Spl) +4(Twin Blades)+6(PA)+2(Dueling Gloves)= ave 35 (Damage = 31 on standard action)
TWR- 21damage, (Power of Giants= 26)
TWF Standard = 97
Full attack
7 Hits= 290
8 Hits= 325
9 Hits= 366
Full Attack/Touch of Rage
(+9 to hit and damage) 9 hits= 447
Full Attack/Power of Giants
8 Hits= 362 (calc as before /large scimitars and 14 str/rend)
9 Hits= 407
AC= 10 +6(Celestial Chain) +5(Armor Enhancement)+5(Amulet)+5(Ring)+6 (Dex+ Belt, )+1(Trait)+1(Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)= 39 on a move or 43 with full attack (+ 5 Defensive Flurry)
Note- Unlike alot of 20th level builds you see, this one has NO Wishes added to boost numbers. You could get the AC, Will save etc higher, but I don't like to count on finding Tomes of +Ability score or High level friendly casters.
Point of interest: The last feat in the Eldritch Heritage lineup removes the effective level penalty from the previous Bloodline Powers, meaning that you get to +6 STR at the same time that you take the last Eldritch Heritage feat.
That's awesome. I missed that. Thankyou.
That would also mean Touch of Rage caps at +10 to hit and damage!!
That's 3 full attack per day that do approx 450dpr!!
And I get 2more minutes of Power of Giants.
Basically when I get that Power at 17, I'd have it for the entire combat in every encounter.
Any ideas on better feat selection? Or have I about got it?
The only obvious change I can see is Retraining Quickdraw at 4 for Power Attack and taking Lunge at 6 instead of 8. That's 2 more levelsof being able to CM without provoking, but I have found TWF throwing to be pretty viable with mundane chackrams till 8 (because of Twin Blades) since it lets you throw full attack until something closes with you. Plus there's the 'cool' factor of being a thrower :)
Your character is human, I suppose? Does that fit fluff-wise with the orc-bloodline?
I like your build, but I find twf to be a bit too feat-intensive. Would a halforc two-handed fighter with the eldritch heritage feats work as well?
Maybe he could then take advantage of the high charisma to intimidate (Dazzling Display and friends)?
How would you build such a character, STR Ranger?
Your character is human, I suppose? Does that fit fluff-wise with the orc-bloodline?
I like your build, but I find twf to be a bit too feat-intensive. Would a halforc two-handed fighter with the eldritch heritage feats work as well?
Maybe he could then take advantage of the high charisma to intimidate (Dazzling Display and friends)?
How would you build such a character, STR Ranger?
As a matter of fact, I came across the eldrtich hertiage feats when I made my last 2handed fighter.
It has room for Dazzling display and friends, but I went with Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Stlye instead becuase I LOVE charging.
Fluff wise being ANY race is ok, but a Human could VERY easily have an Orc ancestor.
Name: Draco the Sunderer
Build: Fighter 20 (2 Handed Archetype, Orc Bloodline)
Race: Human Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Ability Scores:
STR 18 (22)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14 (15)
Favored Class: Fighter, skill points.
Skills: Class (2), Human (1), Favored (1)= 4 per level.
2 Traits- Reactionary +2 Initiative
Indomitable Faith+1 to will saving throws
Wpn Fcs: Nodachi, Power Attack, Iron Will
Shattering Strike (+1Sunder), Cleave
Overhand Chop, Improved Iron Will
Blindfight, Retrain Cleave for Improved Unarmed Strike
Weapon Training+1, Dragon Style
Shattering Strike+2, Lunge
Backswing, Skill Focus: Survival
Wpn Spl: Nodachi, Retrain Blindfight for Gtr Weapon Focus: Nodachi
Weapon Training+2, Eldritch Heritage- Touch of Rage
Shattering Strike+3, Critical Focus
Piledriver, Quicken Spell like Ability: Touch of Rage
Dazing Assault
Weapon Training+3, Improved Eldritch Heritage: Strength of the Beast +2
Shattering Strike+4, Staggering Critical
Gtr Power Attack, Strength of the Beast +4, Improved Eldritch Heritage- Fearless: Immune fear, +2 Natural Armor
Penetrating Strike, Swap Dazing Assault for Stunning Assault
Weapon Training+4, Gtr Eldritch Heritage- Power of Giants, Strength of the Beast +6
Shattering Strike+5, Cleave
Devastating Blow, Quicken SLA: Power of Giants
Weapon Mastery, Cleaving Finish (retrain Stunning Assault for Stunning Critical)
AC= 10 +Mithral do-maru chest with scale arms and legs 8, +1(Dusty Ioun Stone) +5(magic)+5(ring)+5(amulet)+5(Dex+Belt)+2(Natural)= 41/43 with Power of Giants
Attack: Taking weapon Training and full power attack into account Final Full Attack is
BAB20 +2(Gtr Wpn Fcs)+ 4(Weapon Training) + 9(STR) +3(Belt of Physical Perfection) +5(wpn enhancement) +2(Dueling Gloves)-6(PA)
Full Attack 39/34/29/24
Hasted 40/40/35/30/25
Stunning Assault/Haste 35/35/30/25/20
Power of Giants add +3
Damage:Primary= +5, Shock, holy, Menacing, ghost touch Nodachi
D1d10+ 5(wpn enhance) +18(str,belt x1.5) +10(wpn train, Gtr wpn spl, gloves) +1d6 (shock) +2d6(holy)+ 18(PA)= ave 66, Overhand Chop= 72 w/Gtr Power Attack= 78
* All figures calc vs evil.
Standard Attack/Overhand Chop/Gtr Power Attack= 78, plus trip
Full Attack Damage= 72, 78,78,78.
SPECIAL ATTACKS: (all damage calculated for Haste from BOS)
Overhand Chop means any Charge or Standard Attack gets 2x STR, instead of 1.5. Str damage is 24 not 18, plus trip attempt on all standard attacks.
Devastating Blow = Gtr PA, Overhand Chopx2 Crit Mod (a x3 weapon at level 19 would be better)= 146
Full Attack= vs AC 34, 4hits for 306 damage.
Full Attack/Touch of Rage (+10 to attack and damage)= 5 hits for 434
As you can see the Two Weapon Warrior is only a bit in front in terms of protected DPR based on hits. This however is bumped considerably when crits and AOO's are factored in.
The Two Weapon Warrior makes 2 attacks on a standard action instead of one. Double crit chance.
The Two Weapon Warrior makes 2 attacks on a AOO instead of one. Double crit chance. He also gets a late ability, similar to Come and get me, which really ups the AOO chances.
The Two Handed fighter has an easier time charging, is better at CM's since he keeps lunge.
Thank you for the build!