Oversized Crossbow

[Sunaj Janus]

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

So if a creature is attacking with a crossbow that is 1 size category too big he is getting -2 to his attack roll. If he is enlarged then picks up the same crossbow he has a -2 to dex, and a -1 to attack rolls for being large. This means that the penalties for a large character with a large crossbow are the same as a medium character with a large crossbow.

Am I looking at this wrong here?

[frank whited]

Sunaj Janus wrote:

... Am I looking at this wrong here?

Nope, from what I can tell, you hit the nail on the head with this one. one thing to consider though is: most people become enlarged to gain additional benefit from the added strength.

one possible benefit might be that a large crossbowman (crossbowperson?) would be able to stand behind a larger obstruction and be able to shoot over it.

for example:

A 5' tall crossbowman stand behind a 5' tall wall with a pitched battle occuring on the other side. The party's friendly wizard casts enlarge person on him (her) and suddenly she is 10' tall, no worse for wear with using the large crossbow in penalties, and benefits from cover from any return fire.

Overall, the idea has merit with me.

FW

**edit: stupid spelling**

[Lurk3r]

Don't forget the line which says "If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all." So the smaller character couldn't even use the large crossbow.

[frank whited]

Lurk3r wrote:

Don't forget the line which says "If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all." So the smaller character couldn't even use the large crossbow.

Bravo!

I even ran across that portion of the rules and it never smacked me in the head.

woah.. woah, woah...

Wait a minute here - crossbows can be used in one hand at a penalty. So are we saying that a medium creature could shoot a large heavy crossbow in two hands, but would not be able to reload it? If so, does the medium creature take the -4 penalty for shooting the humungous thing?

If so...

I am okay with this - it fits my mental picture

Quite humorous in fact.

[The White]

Also remember that (assuming that you can take the "use a crossbow one handed penalty" to drop a larger crossbow to a one handed weapon for its size and the use two hands) that if you enlarge yourself you could use a crossbow the next size up by taking -1(large) -1(dex) -2(oversized) -4(two handed weapon in one hand) so after enlarging, you can theoretically shoot a 3d8 crossbow at a -8 penalty

[Axebeard]

Lurk3r wrote:

Don't forget the line which says "If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all." So the smaller character couldn't even use the large crossbow.

Everyone who's ever fired a ballista would beg to differ. :P

[Sunaj Janus]

If you want to use the ballista rules and shrink them down, which I guess looking at it a Ballista is just crossbow rules scaled up.

A Heavy crossbow for a large creature is the same as a ballista for a small creature. 2d8 damage. so a medium creature could reload it as a full round action, reaim as zero(part of the fire action), and fire as a standard action with a -2 penalty for size.

Exactly the same as a heavy crossbow, although I would have to say it couldn't be used with 1 hand just because of size, not many people can just aim a 64 lb weapon from the shoulder and fire it, let alone one handed. You would need a Rambo Character to be able to do that.

So the question is do you require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to do this

Also enlarge person doesn't work for ranged weapons, as soon as the ammo leaves you it shrinks to it's normal size dealing normal damage.

Edit: It's worth mentioning that if you go the ballista route, you gain the benefits of bypassing damage reduction of objects. and with the Master Seige Engineer Feat you can fire just as fast.

[ProfPotts]

This is one of those subjects that's been debated back and forth on these boards quite a bit in the past, but my opinion tends to fall into the camp which thinks that, since crossbows have 'handedness' info', you may as well use it. So a medium creature can fire a large light crossbow with two hands at -4 (-2 for one-handed, bumped to two-handed for the size difference, and -2 for the size difference itself), and a large heavy crossbow with two hands at -6. Loading is an issue - a ballista, of course, is a mounted weapon, so you'd probably need some help (or suffer some delay) loading an oversized crossbow which isn't mounted. That's into DM call territory, but I can't see why a properly geared 'crank' system couldn't let you draw and load a large heavy crossbow by yourself... albeit slowly.

Now, if you're into oversized ranged weapons, these days you really want to look at the firearms rules. There's a little clause in there which states the handedness of firearms never changes from scaling the weapon up or down in size. I assume it's in there to stop characters abusing scaled-down bigger guns, but the effect seems to be to opposite: a medium sized character can wander around blowing holes in things with a large (or bigger, if your DM is mad enough to let you) gun with a mere -2 penalty to hit. When a basic pistol jumps from 1d8 to 2d6 damage for being large-sized (a jump of 2.5 average damage, 1 minimum damage, and 4 maximum damage), you take into account the whole 'targets touch AC' things guns have going on, and the whopping x4 critical multiplier, it starts to look an awful lot like a no-brainer choice for any gun-users out there...

[LazarX]

Sunaj Janus wrote:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

So if a creature is attacking with a crossbow that is 1 size category too big he is getting -2 to his attack roll. If he is enlarged then picks up the same crossbow he has a -2 to dex, and a -1 to attack rolls for being large. This means that the penalties for a large character with a large crossbow are the same as a medium character with a large crossbow.

Am I looking at this wrong here?

Actually you also have to add the -4 penalty for nonproficiency. You're not really proficient with wielding a weapon a size larger than you are. (this does not apply in cases like Enlarge Person where you've been enlarged along with the weapon)

[Bobson]

LazarX wrote:

Sunaj Janus wrote:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

So if a creature is attacking with a crossbow that is 1 size category too big he is getting -2 to his attack roll. If he is enlarged then picks up the same crossbow he has a -2 to dex, and a -1 to attack rolls for being large. This means that the penalties for a large character with a large crossbow are the same as a medium character with a large crossbow.

Am I looking at this wrong here?

Actually you also have to add the -4 penalty for nonproficiency. You're not really proficient with wielding a weapon a size larger than you are. (this does not apply in cases like Enlarge Person where you've been enlarged along with the weapon)

Actually, you're perfectly proficient with any size weapon you can pick up, if you're proficient with that type of weapon at all. The size issue is reflected in the -2 penalty. So a wizard could use a huge dagger proficiently (with a -4 size penalty), but not a greatsword.