Goblin Squad Member
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How many ways can you get an omelet served up? If you're tired of eating omelets (common MMOs), then stop ordering them.
I've said enough in my above posts. For all the elites and/or old school gamers that have level'd their own gamer class experience to the high ends of gaming reality, I have recently discovered there is hope.
Begin your quest searching for Wizardry Online. It is out in Japan and will be out in the US and EU by the end of 2012.
I personally hope many of you show up to group with me to hunt down villainous players and share some intense adventures with me.
The PFO devs can put their bets on 'hope', but at this point, anyone with any experience already knows that making another typical MMO is a poor gamble. If there is 7000000000 people on the planet, why do game developers keep trying to focus on the 13000000 that enjoy WoW? Do they really think they will get much out of eating a slice of pie that has already been eaten? Try cutting your own slice from the 6987000000 remaining potential gamers of the human population. There is a reason those beyond the 13 million subs do NOT play WoW. Those are the players you should be targeting. (Based on the human population count of 7 billion)
Ya know, it actually saddened me when, years ago, I read about an MMO getting shut down. It has become more common these days, but it still saddens me. I think about all of the memories real people had in those worlds and that the experience (crappy as it may have been) of that particular virtual world is gone forever.
And let me say 'Thanks' to everyone here for such a splendid series of posts. Usually, by now, we are stricken with a lot of unpleasantness, but this thread has been wonderful to read.
Ever notice the farther you get from permadeath, the more abundant the griefers become? hehe... Population control is a wonderful thing.
Perma-Death LOL... More like Perma-Rage Quit...
Looks interesting enough but I don't see this being an MMO I would play for very long.
The problem with Perma-Death is they play like FPS games, dieing is commen place and doesn't matter and you end up with no connection to your Charector.
Just another gimmick talked about but rarely ever implemented in mmo's and for good reason..
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Hi
CRPG I'm definitely in favour of. MMO probably not.
It's playing Bard's Tale & the Forgotton Realms series on my C64 in the mid 80's that got me into tabletop gaming in the first place. (Just a few sessions about 1985, then regular groups from 1991 onwards).
Anyone remember the Commodore 64, and it's successor the Amiga? Still got the Amiga, withthe memory upgrade & extra Floppy Drive. :)
Thanks
Paul H (Reminiscing.....)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@PaulH, yes, I taught myself to program on the C64. For me, it was Ultima IV and the ones that followed.
And while I enjoy the nostalgia, I definitely don't want to go back.
Most game developers (and in my heart, that's what I've wanted to be since I was 13) want to make games that they would want to play. The only way that's really possible is to make a game that can surprise you, and the only way that's going to happen is if there are other human beings in your game, doing things you never envisioned.
I have absolutely zero interest in single player games, and haven't since I tried A Bard's Tale and some others around that time. I'd rather play a text-only MUD with 40 other people than play Diablo 3 or Skyrim.
To me being able to play a great game with friends is the icing on the cake, not the cake. If the cake is delicious enough, like a TES game, I can easily sink hundreds or more hours and never want for multiplayer.
I've gotten more multiplayer mileage out of Baldur's Gate and the Neverwinter series than I have all MMO's out there combined excluding DAoC, which had sandbox styled PvP on a relatively level playing field (crafting gear was the best gear). That kept me coming back for more for a long time. If you add in non-mmo multiplayer sandboxes like Terrarria and Minecraft, I've gotten much more entertainment out of that small subset (excluding every other multiplayer game type) than all MMO's including DAoC.
I love playing a "good game" with my wife and friends, but most MMO's are "bad games" that lean on social aspects to make up for lack of compelling gameplay. It doesn't work out for me, I'd rather socialize in Steam while I play Skyrim, or jump in and play a match of Killing Floor or Portal 2, and have more fun.
The thing that I loathe about MMOs is how railroaded they are. The overwhelmingly vast majority of games are built with a set story elements and once you exhaust them you're done. This is why I love table top RPGs and sandbox style games (skyrim, for example). I'm a bit dumbstruck as to how a computer gaming industry can exist for about 30 years and the dominate massive game is just a shining example of maddening repetition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Buri, what you describe is what Ryan has been referring to as Theme Park (content on rails, etc.).
There's a significant departure from that with Sandboxes, where the world is actually persistent, and changes, and players aren't killing the same mobs or doing the same quests over and over again.
That's exactly what I want, a sandbox. A part of my soul cries whenever an "RPG" is released that is really just an action/adventure game with stats.
I've had mixed results with SWTOR. My first time play throughs have been sweet but it's hard to put even half an hour on alt characters even during early stages when I'm planning on taking a different prestige class.
Though, I do enjoy Skyrim immensely. Sure, you have to escape the dragon initially after creating a character but after that the world is your plaything. You can be a trader, theif, assassin, warrior, mage, etc and the game itself doesn't really impose any ridiculous restrictions upon you should you choose to switch from playing a story element to being off doing your own thing. It's not ideal as I can't, for example, walk up to a random NPC, strike up a conversation, learn something and do something with it (even if it's nothing or exploiting it to that NPC betterment/detriment or my own). But, it's one of those "best that I've seen" kind of things and I can still spend an entire evening playing it even though I'm probably well over 200 hours in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The basic weakness of all MMOs to date: you are mostly just a grunt, one of a million when you really want to be the hero.
If you want to change that you have to invest ungodly amounts of time and/or money to archieve a glimpse of something that Skyrim gives you for free - a world where everything revolves around you - just with noone else to admire/envy/.. you.
But if you really want to have a interesting world, you can't look to PvE as to date even a game as complex as Skyrim is still shallow and scripted.
Problem is, that in the classic fantasy MMOs this is just as true as PvP is reduced to arena style sport events.
This is what Pathfinder will hopefully change.
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The basic weakness of all MMOs to date: you are mostly just a grunt, one of a million when you really want to be the hero.
If you want to change that you have to invest ungodly amounts of time and/or money to archieve a glimpse of something that Skyrim gives you for free - a world where everything revolves around you - just with noone else to admire/envy/.. you.
But if you really want to have a interesting world, you can't look to PvE as to date even a game as complex as Skyrim is still shallow and scripted.
Problem is, that in the classic fantasy MMOs this is just as true as PvP is reduced to arena style sport events.
This is what Pathfinder will hopefully change.
In order to fully appreciate the AI in Skyrim you have to stop fast travelling. The non-combat AI is way above anything else I've played sans the Sims. In most MMO the NPC's are loot pinatas and quest vending machines. In Skyrim I followed this group of undead/vampire hunters once for a few hours. It lead me to some extremely interesting content that had nothing to do with quests. 400 hours in I'm still finding strange things laying around Skyrim. Some is scripted, some is emergent behavior of the AI. Sometimes the 2 collide with really amusing results, like General Tullius being attacked by a Dragon while he gives a rousing speech in front of the final war related battle (Imperial aligned).
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Personally, I would gave preferred a regular CRPG as well. I think I'm getting burned out after playing MMOs for the past 10 years or so. (City of Heroes, WoW, Rifts, now Star Wars). Im definately tired if the grinding and leveling multiple toons with the same damn quests over and over (with the exception if starting zones). Then there's the end game time sink as well as raid commitments and scheduling, etc.
Star Wars is fun so far but definately my last MMO.
I'm tired. :|
Yeah, I am getting tired of MMOs as well. I am still playing SWToR (I like the class stories), but yes going through the side quests again can get old. i really do like pathfinder and hope that the game revitalizes my interest in an MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For me I've gotten tired of grinds. I welcomed them in WoW since I had a lot of time to kill and it was way too expensive to buy new console games every week or so. SWTOR is very themepark, but the end-game isn't very demanding. I can play once a week and still be at the cutting edge of gear. To do that in WoW I had to spend 4 hours a day getting reputation and tokens.
Now that I have far less free time I'm looking forward to something new with long-stretching goals. It will be nice to slowly develop a settlement and character.
I'm going to echo Delbin on the grind aspect. Grinds are Dumb(R).
I'm curious to see how the politics will play into the first year population seeding. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious to see how the politics will play into the first year population seeding. :DI'm really hoping for some heavy cooperation and a focus on building up the world. It'll be sad if there are bandit guilds swarming the main settlements in the first month.
The bandit guilds swarming the main settlements provides a lot of content for me, I hope they do exist and in large numbers.
More bandits to kill the better!
I agree. Personally, I'd love to make a character founds an arcane university.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious to see how the politics will play into the first year population seeding. :DI'm really hoping for some heavy cooperation and a focus on building up the world. It'll be sad if there are bandit guilds swarming the main settlements in the first month.The bandit guilds swarming the main settlements provides a lot of content for me, I hope they do exist and in large numbers.
More bandits to kill the better!
That does sound fun. I think I mean more where the bandits so outnumber crafting players that nothing can be built and even the main settlements would get destroyed.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I agree. Personally, I'd love to make a character founds an arcane university.
Have you seen the Cæruxi recruitment thread?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perma Death is there as an option in any MMO, if you choose to exercise it.
That's the fact, Jack.
My dad has played LOTRO for years in self-imposed hard-mode, where he deletes a character when it dies. He was extremely disappointed that the various titles you earn by reaching certain levels without dying stopped at level 20.
I would really like to see PFO give us access to statistics that we can share with other players, and brag about. Vanguard did this well with respect to making the statistics available, but poorly with respect to the statistics being inaccurate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree. Personally, I'd love to make a character founds an arcane university.
More power to you.
Realistically all that I can hope for is to make myself a name as a reliable mercenary to undertake any job that doesn't take too long to complete (guard duty, bodyguarding, bounty hunting). I simply haven't got the time that will very likely be needed to found something big like an university/castle/whatnot.
MMO's by their very nature eat lots and lots of time. It's the business model to get people hooked and make sure they keep paying the monthly fee.
These days I just don't have that much time to spend on games. When I do have time I'd like to be able to take full advantage of what the game has to offer.
I'm surprised you have the time to post on an internet forum! Shouldn't you be working for rent money or in school getting an education so you can get a good enough job to afford free time?
Goodness. Wish I had such an engaged and busy life...
Maybe we can KickStarter a single player, turn based Pathfinder game! WOOT!