Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope Kit was exaggerating, unless when he says wall he's referring to something REALLY massive, like a frontier wall (similar to the one between England and Scotland that was built by the Romans.)If you have the thousands it would take to build a wall overnightThis building system sounds fun and playable.
I wasn't actually...I am one of those who believes changing the world in a lasting way should require some real effort. But I was talking about building in stone...there is a reason why forts were build of earthworks and wood...and later replaced with stone as they could. I could see a guild building a wooden palisade in 12 hours real-time (overnight).
Building structures anywhere is a good idea, but it will be abused. The only way to keep it from being abused is to make the crafting of it slow and difficult. Then the only ones who will go through the effort are those who REALLY want to build something, such as a large guild building a fortress to call their home. It will be a slow few months...but in the end they will have their fortress. Likewise, depending upon the building material, dismantling a structure should take a long time too (wooden palisades can be burned down, but stone walls must be pulled down. Magically fused stone...well must be quarried.
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Building structures anywhere is a good idea, but it will be abused. The only way to keep it from being abused is to make the crafting of it slow and difficult. Then the only ones who will go through the effort are those who REALLY want to build something, such as
Goons.
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I want to build a structure that can be seen from Castrovel...
Well, this is the internet, so.
"...What the hell did you guys build?"
"Well, the guild needed something to do, and we had all these stones lying around, so..."
"Is that..."
"Yes. That is a penis."
"You built a gigantic dong out of stone that can be seen from Castrovel."
"No other material was hard enough."
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I would hope Kit was exaggerating, unless when he says wall he's referring to something REALLY massive, like a frontier wall (similar to the one between England and Scotland that was built by the Romans.)If you have the thousands it would take to build a wall overnightThis building system sounds fun and playable.I wasn't actually...I am one of those who believes changing the world in a lasting way should require some real effort. But I was talking about building in stone...there is a reason why forts were build of earthworks and wood...and later replaced with stone as they could. I could see a guild building a wooden palisade in 12 hours real-time (overnight).
Building structures anywhere is a good idea, but it will be abused. The only way to keep it from being abused is to make the crafting of it slow and difficult. Then the only ones who will go through the effort are those who REALLY want to build something, such as a large guild building a fortress to call their home. It will be a slow few months...but in the end they will have their fortress. Likewise, depending upon the budilding material, dismantling a structure should take a long time too (wooden palisades can be burned down, but stone walls must be pulled down. Magically fused stone...well must be quarried.
Or, have building structures based on the population of an area. If there are 200 PCs which populate a "town" then, collectively, those PCs would have X amount of structures from which to build. This would ensure that crafting buildings is a team effort – one wizard should not be able to build their own tower and a king their own wall. I agree with the consensus that that would be OP.
Also, if a structure can be built by a player, then it should be able to be destroyed (or circumvented) by other players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then absolutely no one would build things in game, especially if structures are destructible. It'd be the ultimate win for griefers. A group of people spend months, possibly a year building their fortress, they finally see their plan come to fruition. Then a couple dudes with high level gear come in and level it in about an hour. WOO VERISIMILITUDE
I am not making a claim for realism for realisms sake...I am saying changing the world requires effort on the part of their characters...and those who are not willing to do the effort, make very little changes to the world. It will promote people working as teams to build greater works (as happens in RL) and will prevent random buildings being annoyingly strewn around the world.
And as for the idea that no one would do it...this is the thing I am my people are looking forward to most because we are all enjoy working together to build things. Any big task becomes easier with enough hands and time.
As to the high level dudes...I am not sure how that is applicable, because that is not what I argued for...I said it should take almost as long to tear down as it did to build.
I want to build a structure that can be seen from Castrovel...Well, this is the internet, so.
"...What the hell did you guys build?"
"Well, the guild needed something to do, and we had all these stones lying around, so..."
"Is that..."
"Yes. That is a penis."
"You built a gigantic dong out of stone that can be seen from Castrovel."
"No other material was hard enough."
Excuse me, sir, but you are dead wrong.
Adamantine. Big blocks of adamantine. With Prestidigitation and Permanancy to color it properly.
Adamantine. Big blocks of adamantine. With Prestidigitation and Permanancy to color it properly.
If you want to be elegant, marble comes in pink.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What's that? Heh, sorry, new players and solo players, you don't get a house. But why not pay one of the bigger clans or guilds for boarding? What's that, can't afford it? Too bad, you're screwed. Have a good gaming experience!Then absolutely no one would build things in game, especially if structures are destructible. It'd be the ultimate win for griefers. A group of people spend months, possibly a year building their fortress, they finally see their plan come to fruition. Then a couple dudes with high level gear come in and level it in about an hour. WOO VERISIMILITUDEI am not making a claim for realism for realisms sake...I am saying changing the world requires effort on the part of their characters...and those who are not willing to do the effort, make very little changes to the world. It will promote people working as teams to build greater works (as happens in RL) and will prevent random buildings being annoyingly strewn around the world.
And as for the idea that no one would do it...this is the thing I am my people are looking forward to most because we are all enjoy working together to build things. Any big task becomes easier with enough hands and time.
As to the high level dudes...I am not sure how that is applicable, because that is not what I argued for...I said it should take almost as long to tear down as it did to build.
No, I suppose we can make it just like LOTRO where you have designated areas and everyone gets to pick their pretty plot. But that is not really a sandbox...but you tell me, what is the logical conclusion of a sandbox in which anyone can easily build anything anywhere?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then absolutely no one would build things in game, especially if structures are destructible. It'd be the ultimate win for griefers. A group of people spend months, possibly a year building their fortress, they finally see their plan come to fruition. Then a couple dudes with high level gear come in and level it in about an hour. WOO VERISIMILITUDEWhile I certainly hope we don't HAVE 'high level gear' I do agree that a year would be FAR too long to build a fortress. This is supposed to be a kingdom building game, not game about building a single fortress/castle over the course of a whole damned year.
30 days is the MOST I could see being reasonable for assembling a fortress/castle, assuming a decent sized workforce. Two weeks would probably be a lot more reasonable.
I have no qualms with a decent sized guild working a month to build a fortress...but, after that month, why not build another ring of walls and fill the gap with streets, fortifications, and houses you can rent or sell?...and when done with that, another ring...each would take longer and longer because of course the size is much bigger...the only limit would be where the work force WANTED to stop...or mining out your resources. Either way, if you enjoyed it...why shouldn't your castle take a year to build?
If you do not enjoy it, why are you crafting to begin with? As previously mentioned, perhaps everyone can do laborer level crafting, but I think expert and especially master crafting should be very restrictive. Leaving it to those who actually enjoy it.
what is the logical conclusion of a sandbox in which anyone can easily build anything anywhere?
Don't you mean... erect?
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Goblin Squad Member
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what is the logical conclusion of a sandbox in which anyone can easily build anything anywhere?Don't you mean... erect?
Exactly.
Here is an example I once visited, and they do have a decent sized workforce Ozark Medieval Fortress. It is taking 20 years to build this small castle. No, I am not asking for realism for the sake of realism...obviously asking for a month of work time is not even realistic. My concern is making it an effort to leave a lasting mark on Golarion. I think everyone should be able to do it...if they are willing to put in the effort.
If they put a bit of thrust into it, as it were.
I'm aware that it isn't the goal of most MMOs, but it is of some. I also must admit to not caring much for most MMOs. I usually far prefer my tabletop adventures to that. I think there's a lot of potential to what PFO is aiming for, and hope that it retains the things I like about the PFRPG.
I believe they've already stated they're making a sandbox experience in the River Kingdoms where PCs can mass armies, build nations, and explore. While that certainly doesn't demand what I've outlined as my desire, it does imply that it wouldn't be unreasonable.
Do you make your players wait a month real-time for a sword to be crafted once they start making it?
Time constraints are a non-issue in table-top gaming because they are handwaved for the most part (a month has passed). I'm not sure what your issue is with it taking no time in comparison in an MMO. It actually takes longer, I can say "A month has passed." in less than a second.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ideally, if you 'own' the land (ie have gone to the right NPC, paid x amount of gold per 10 square feet of dirt and have the title stored away in triplicate) your building should be nigh-on invulnerable.
Build on 'free' land and expect the 'Chan'ers to come running. It's horrible, but people are like that.
Perhaps simple buildings such as a 3-5 room building should be made within a week real-time, depending upon number of rooms, building materials and how many labourer NPCs/Players you can buy/shanghai to help out.
Simple 3 room wooden shack with a dirt floor, yourself and a friend making it, 2 days, adding a 'half day' for each additional room. So long as you own the land, it keeps the rain off, the wind out and some privacy. Not exactly something to be proud of, however....
Simple 3 room brick and shingle house with wooden floors, yourself and a friend making it, 3 days, adding a 'half day' for each additional room. Unlike the 'Shack', the door can be something much sturdier, the windows barred, preventing enemy/rival players and serial thieves from breaking in easily.
Good house made of quarried stone with clay-tile roof, 3 rooms, 5 days, adding a full day for each additional room. Unlike the Brick house, the quarried stone house is damn near impregnable to anything short of a Giant or a Dragon. This is just about a fool-proof cock-block to serial thief PCs who think they are entitled to go in and loot your hard-won treasures.
Making this faster is hiring NPCs to work on the building for you during your off-hours (when you are not playing) and to help you out while you are working on the structure. While expensive, these NPCs are unfortunately vulnerable to rival players and other NPCs, so either you hire mercenaries to guard your hirelings, or stand watch yourself. In relatively civilised regions, this won't be much of a problem. Most MMOs I have played, somebody sees open griefing going on and they have a chance to 'slay the Troll', they will.
Ideally, players should be able to 'cap out' at a Small Fort, 20 rooms, 2 stories tall (and a basement) with a 10 foot tall stone wall surrounding it, or a Tower three stories tall (and a basement) with 10 rooms. And none of these should be easily gained. We're talking hundreds of thousands of gold's worth of materials, buying the land, furnishings and ideally being able to trap or otherwise fortify the building to keep unwanted players out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with everything you proposed, although I would say time gathering resources is not figured in your projections. Wood can be chopped and gathered fairly quickly if there is a forest local. Earthworks can be made anywhere by digging trenches and piling dirt. This will be the easiest and most common or initial fortification (although digging trenches in stone would not be easy). Stone on the other hand would require cutting from a stone source and hauling it to your construction site. This could take a long time depending on your distance.
EDIT: On the other hand, guessing times for construction of anything at the moment is just a game of seeing how far you can push people into allowing one type of cost (time).
Chief Technical Officer
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Interesting comment from Vic considering everything about Golarion bleeds adventure. I think the most rewarding element should be to Adventure. The Kingmaker adventure path allowed plenty of time for crafting and RP, but the majority of the content was designed to push PCs out of the castle and find Adventure!
I think that spirit should not be lost.
The Pathfinder RPG is strongly focused on adventurers, but the Pathfinder campaign setting—the setting for Pathfinder Online—is filled with plenty of non-adventurers: farmers, dockworkers, blacksmiths, barkeeps.
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Then absolutely no one would build things in game, especially if structures are destructible. It'd be the ultimate win for griefers. A group of people spend months, possibly a year building their fortress, they finally see their plan come to fruition. Then a couple dudes with high level gear come in and level it in about an hour. WOO VERISIMILITUDEWhile I certainly hope we don't HAVE 'high level gear' I do agree that a year would be FAR too long to build a fortress. This is supposed to be a kingdom building game, not game about building a single fortress/castle over the course of a whole damned year.
30 days is the MOST I could see being reasonable for assembling a fortress/castle, assuming a decent sized workforce. Two weeks would probably be a lot more reasonable.
I also agree that building a castle should not take a full year. I think that the baseline for how long something should take to build should be based on the simplest structure. So, here is my Barn Raising method.
A barn or stable is probably one of the most simple free standing, semi permanent structures (because I am assuming that buildings can be destroyed) that “will” be created in PFO. According to “Witness” (yes, THAT “Witness”), building a barn with help should take about a day, two at the most. Now, to make things feasible in-game, say, building a barn – a one room building with four walls - solo takes about two hours. With the help of some other PCs who are skilled crafters, that could be reduced to somewhere between 10-20 minutes. Now, since buildings could be destroyed, an angry mob of PCs attacking said barn would spend about 10-20 minutes tearing it apart in barn-splintering glory. Now, if someone wants to build a wall of barns for one reason or another, they would have to watch every section of that wall to make sure it is not torn down.
Now, in RL, castles took an average of three decades or more to build. Now, in-game, if a barn takes 20 minutes, then a castle would take around 5 months. But, a mob working around the clock to take down the castle would take that same amount of time. But, castles should be icons of the environment which they inhabit. After all, what would London be without Buckingham Palace or the Tower of London?
Now, what if we add another layer to this? What if building structures generated Aggro to cause random encounters around the structures being created – crafting buildings creates a lot of noise which could attract angry ogres, orcs, or NPC bandits. If this were implemented, crafters could choose to hire PCs to protect the building site as they craft. Thus, building a house or a wall or a castle would be a group effort and everyone involved would gain XP for their character in a meaningful way – crafters by building things and the PC guards by fighting off the attacking foes.
Also, the more buildings which occupy an area would decrease the Aggro – it would be more challenging and require more teamwork between PCs to start a village than to build in one which is already established. So, building within a walled city would be more safe than building out in the open wilderness.
Oh, also, ideally, crafting would be an auto-skill which could be done offline much like skill training in EVE. Your character would craft while you sleep or at work and while you are actually playing the game, you may choose to do crafting mini games (if available) or battle some monsters and explore the world.
Goblinworks Founder
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Oh, also, ideally, crafting would be an auto-skill which could be done offline much like skill training in EVE. Your character would craft while you sleep or at work and while you are actually playing the game, you may choose to do crafting mini games (if available) or battle some monsters and explore the world.
This is a good idea. I would take it one step further and allow players to craft AND sell while offline. Both are possible, we have seen the offline skills work for EvE and Age of Conan's alternate advancement. In Aion (and i'm sure plenty of other Korean MMO's) you can as a character set up a shop that works identical to an NPC vendor.
My challenge to goblinworks is to combine the two.
Example 1:
You are a Apprentice Steel smith (rank 1). It is going to take you 24 hours to train your skill to become an Novice Steel Smith (rank 2) as you have met the other per-requisites. You've made about 20 various items that people might have use for while your offline. Using a player shop tab (or other interface), you set up what items you want to sell and how much you want to sell them for. You then plant your wooden stall in the market place (using dedicated anchor points) and when you log off, your character will turn into an NPC that can repair armor and sell items.
This is a good idea. I would take it one step further and allow players to craft AND sell while offline. Both are possible, we have seen the offline skills work for EvE and Age of Conan's alternate advancement. In Aion (and i'm sure plenty of other Korean MMO's) you can as a character set up a shop that works identical to an NPC vendor.My challenge to goblinworks is to combine the two.
Example 1:
You are a Apprentice Steel smith (rank 1). It is going to take you 24 hours to train your skill to become an Novice Steel Smith (rank 2) as you have met the other per-requisites. You've made about 20 various items that people might have use for while your offline. Using a player shop tab (or other interface), you set up what items you want to sell and how much you want to sell them for. You then plant your wooden stall in the market place (using dedicated anchor points) and when you log off, your character will turn into an NPC that can repair armor and sell items.
Interesting. I don’t think being able to craft and sell items (or any two activities simotaniously) as off-line activities would be a bit much. How can a PC be in two places at once? However, PCs could be allowed to create businesses which NPCs or PCs could manage. Items created while auto-crating could then be designated to automatically be placed within the stock of the player-controlled store to be sold while the PC is offline. Basically, this does the same thing, but, achieves it in a more imperishable fashion.
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Goblinworks Founder
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Interesting. I don’t think being able to craft and sell items (or any two activities simotaniously) as off-line activities would be a bit much. How can a PC be in two places at once? However, PCs could be allowed to create businesses which NPCs or PCs could manage. Items created while auto-crating could then be designated to automatically be placed within the stock of the player-controlled store to be sold while the PC is offline. Basically, this does the same thing, but, achieves it in a more imperishable fashion.
This is a good idea. I would take it one step further and allow players to craft AND sell while offline. Both are possible, we have seen the offline skills work for EvE and Age of Conan's alternate advancement. In Aion (and i'm sure plenty of other Korean MMO's) you can as a character set up a shop that works identical to an NPC vendor.My challenge to goblinworks is to combine the two.
Example 1:
You are a Apprentice Steel smith (rank 1). It is going to take you 24 hours to train your skill to become an Novice Steel Smith (rank 2) as you have met the other per-requisites. You've made about 20 various items that people might have use for while your offline. Using a player shop tab (or other interface), you set up what items you want to sell and how much you want to sell them for. You then plant your wooden stall in the market place (using dedicated anchor points) and when you log off, your character will turn into an NPC that can repair armor and sell items.
How can NPC's do it? You buy items from NPC's standing next to anvils in virtually every computer RPG there is. This is no different.
How can NPC's do it? You buy items from NPC's standing next to anvils in virtually every computer RPG there is. This is no different.Interesting. I don’t think being able to craft and sell items (or any two activities simotaniously) as off-line activities would be a bit much. How can a PC be in two places at once? However, PCs could be allowed to create businesses which NPCs or PCs could manage. Items created while auto-crating could then be designated to automatically be placed within the stock of the player-controlled store to be sold while the PC is offline. Basically, this does the same thing, but, achieves it in a more imperishable fashion.
This is a good idea. I would take it one step further and allow players to craft AND sell while offline. Both are possible, we have seen the offline skills work for EvE and Age of Conan's alternate advancement. In Aion (and i'm sure plenty of other Korean MMO's) you can as a character set up a shop that works identical to an NPC vendor.My challenge to goblinworks is to combine the two.
Example 1:
You are a Apprentice Steel smith (rank 1). It is going to take you 24 hours to train your skill to become an Novice Steel Smith (rank 2) as you have met the other per-requisites. You've made about 20 various items that people might have use for while your offline. Using a player shop tab (or other interface), you set up what items you want to sell and how much you want to sell them for. You then plant your wooden stall in the market place (using dedicated anchor points) and when you log off, your character will turn into an NPC that can repair armor and sell items.
Point. But, would players really want to play store clerks? I guess that if I want to play a crafter then someone would want to manage a store in a virtual world, right?
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Goblinworks Founder
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Point. But, would players really want to play store clerks? I guess that if I want to play a crafter then someone would want to manage a store in a virtual world, right?
Some players would.
I think you missed a bit though...
Example 1:
..... You then plant your wooden stall... and when you log off, your character will turn into an NPC that can repair armor and sell items.
Aion allowed players to establish themselves as a vendor. Most players would do it and then go afk for an hour or so. My idea is merely using that idea and pushing it that little bit further in that you can do so while you are logged off for the night.
It would allow someone to craft a few things for the shop before logging out. Then they can train/craft offline while being set up as a vendor to sell the stuff they made earlier that night.
You will definitely find some sandbox players will want to do nothing else but craft and sell their items.
You will also find some sandbox players that will want to do nothing but entertain.
You will aslo find some sandbox players that want to kill anything with a heartbeat.
With Star Wars Galaxies being closed down by SOE, you will find quite a lot of these people without a home. SWG Emulator can't house them all.
I think you missed a bit though...
Example 1:
..... You then plant your wooden stall... and when you log off, your character will turn into an NPC that can repair armor and sell items.Aion allowed players to establish themselves as a vendor. Most players would do it and then go afk for an hour or so. My idea is merely using that idea and pushing it that little bit further in that you can do so while you are logged off for the night.
It would allow someone to craft a few things for the shop before logging out. Then they can train/craft offline while being set up as a vendor to sell the stuff they made earlier that night.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are you suggesting that players should be able to select their PC to perform two separate actions – crafting and selling – while logged off? Isn’t this double dipping a bit? Would not every character be twice as effective while offline than online? I believe this could lead to an abuse of the system where players purpose do not play only to have an endless supply of crafted items to sell. It creates too much of a money making Catch 22.
I agree that players should have the option to both craft and sell items as an auto-function while logged off. However, I think it is a bit much to have it occur simultaneously. The whole “eat your cake and have it too” type of deal.
Or, am I still missing the point of what you are trying to say. It is midnight where I am at, after all, and my brain is getting fuzzy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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About tearing down buildings: it should not be possible to tear down any decently constructed building using your adventuring gear.
A sword don't cut stone walls and it is a lousy instrument to cut holes in a wooden barn.
To tear down a castle you should sue battering rams, catapults and trebuchets. All stuff that should not be transportable in the adventurer pocket.
Even using magic it should require specialized magic with specific requirements, not your everyday fireball.
Ryan has already stated that it will not be possible to create a "wall of barns" to enclose one area. It was done in UO and the developers have learned the lesson. If you want to build the Adrian Wall of the Great Wall of China, more power to you, after 20 years of work in RL you will discover that you don't have the manpower to patrol every section of the wall.
If you want to build a tool boot on the road and you have the means to keep it up, good for you, I hope the developers will be clever enough to give us multiple routes to the same destination. If your tool boat is combined with real protection on the road you claim as your your road will be used, if it is crawling with bandits and you are a shined upon version of a bandit people will avoid it.
And that mean that "few choke points to facilitate player interaction (i.e. ganking)" al la EVE is a bad idea.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I think you missed a bit though...
Example 1:
..... You then plant your wooden stall... and when you log off, your character will turn into an NPC that can repair armor and sell items.Aion allowed players to establish themselves as a vendor. Most players would do it and then go afk for an hour or so. My idea is merely using that idea and pushing it that little bit further in that you can do so while you are logged off for the night.
It would allow someone to craft a few things for the shop before logging out. Then they can train/craft offline while being set up as a vendor to sell the stuff they made earlier that night.
Correct me if I am wrong, but are you suggesting that players should be able to select their PC to perform two separate actions – crafting and selling – while logged off? Isn’t this double dipping a bit? Would not every character be twice as effective while offline than online? I believe this could lead to an abuse of the system where players purpose do not play only to have an endless supply of crafted items to sell. It creates too much of a money making Catch 22.
I agree that players should have the option to both craft and sell items as an auto-function while logged off. However, I think it is a bit much to have it occur simultaneously. The whole “eat your cake and have it too” type of deal.
Or, am I still missing the point of what you are trying to say. It is midnight where I am at, after all, and my brain is getting fuzzy.
I'm sorry, I actually did not mean crafting. I just realised what I had written. I meant training. Under the assumption that the training was in some way similar to EvE's off line training.
I still stand by the vendor and repair offline though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting. I don’t think being able to craft and sell items (or any two activities simotaniously) as off-line activities would be a bit much. How can a PC be in two places at once? However, PCs could be allowed to create businesses which NPCs or PCs could manage. Items created while auto-crating could then be designated to automatically be placed within the stock of the player-controlled store to be sold while the PC is offline. Basically, this does the same thing, but, achieves it in a more imperishable fashion.
I fail to see how craft and sell really is 2 actions. Running a store is not considered 2 actions in most places. 90% of selling is sitting around waiting for someone to walk up to you and decide, the actual act that involves your focus is simply grabbing something off the shelf and collecting the money. You will see shops in the real world that during normal circumstances are booked by 1-2 people, say a computer repair shop or something of that nature, where the tech walks to the front sells an item then goes back to working on a machine he's fixing. Forcing someone to toggle between the 2 is just an unnecessary nuisance. A pure crafter still would have extra tasks to do during their online hours, finding and negotiating partnerships to get materials etc.. (since odds are the most valuable components for crafting will require adventuring).
That being said, I'm not sure if actual hands on crafting time is the best limiter for items. I wouldn't be opposed to instantaneous crafting, assuming the items crafted from are not in super high supply. (but afk crafting while selling IMO does the job just as well), I'd say the hardest task for a crafter should be trying to find or negotiate a deal for red dragon scales, or whatever else the adventurers will be likely to bring back, creating a nice symbiotic relationship between the crafters and each-other and adventurers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This depends on what you're looking at. Within the Pathfinder setting we have adamantine weapons which can cut through stone with relative ease. And a fireball thrown into a hay barn should make the whole thing go up like a pitch soaked torch.
Actually adamantine weapons DON'T cut through walls with ease.
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
This has been pointed out several times in the main board.
A fireball will lit up a haystack (but it will not burn instantly, only the outer layer will catch fire) but the building will burn for a long time before being destroyed and the it will be impassable terrain for a even longer time thanks to the heat of the embers.
Interesting. I don’t think being able to craft and sell items (or any two activities simotaniously) as off-line activities would be a bit much. How can a PC be in two places at once? However, PCs could be allowed to create businesses which NPCs or PCs could manage. Items created while auto-crating could then be designated to automatically be placed within the stock of the player-controlled store to be sold while the PC is offline. Basically, this does the same thing, but, achieves it in a more imperishable fashion.
I fail to see how craft and sell really is 2 actions. Running a store is not considered 2 actions in most places. 90% of selling is sitting around waiting for someone to walk up to you and decide, the actual act that involves your focus is simply grabbing something off the shelf and collecting the money. You will see shops in the real world that during normal circumstances are booked by 1-2 people, say a computer repair shop or something of that nature, where the tech walks to the front sells an item then goes back to working on a machine he's fixing. Forcing someone to toggle between the 2 is just an unnecessary nuisance. A pure crafter still would have extra tasks to do during their online hours, finding and negotiating partnerships to get materials etc.. (since odds are the most valuable components for crafting will require adventuring).
Good counter argument. I had argued that crafting and selling are two separate actions because they are two steps of the ultimate goal. First a crafter makes a sword and THEN they sell it. You are correct in saying that there is much downtime when running an old fashioned storefront. In this downtime, the store owner/crafter would continue to create their merchandise.
However, if a player is crafting while he is selling, then they are not focused on one task. So, then if players decided to have their PC craft and sell simultaneously while offline, what if the rate of crafting was slightly reduced than if they only crafted while offline? This could also be applied to training, building structures, whatever. All players could choose to have their PCs perform non-combat actions while offline but each additional action they perform reduces the effectiveness and skill XP increase of all actions.
That being said, I'm not sure if actual hands on crafting time is the best limiter for items. I wouldn't be opposed to instantaneous crafting, assuming the items crafted from are not in super high supply. (but afk crafting while selling IMO does the job just as well), I'd say the hardest task for a crafter should be trying to find or negotiate a deal for red dragon scales, or whatever else the adventurers will be likely to bring back, creating a nice symbiotic relationship between the crafters and each-other and adventurers.
This depends on what you're looking at. Within the Pathfinder setting we have adamantine weapons which can cut through stone with relative ease. And a fireball thrown into a hay barn should make the whole thing go up like a pitch soaked torch.
Actually adamantine weapons DON'T cut through walls with ease.
Green Star Metal though can literally cut through anything...oh wait, that's not in Pathfinder. Thank goodness! Man was Green Star Metal a weird thing in Greyhawk…
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Goblin Squad Member
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This depends on what you're looking at. Within the Pathfinder setting we have adamantine weapons which can cut through stone with relative ease. And a fireball thrown into a hay barn should make the whole thing go up like a pitch soaked torch.
Actually adamantine weapons DON'T cut through walls with ease.
Green Star Metal though can literally cut through anything...oh wait, that's not in Pathfinder. Thank goodness! Man was Green Star Metal a weird thing in Greyhawk…
It is not about the material with which the weapon is made, it is the shape and functionality.
Read the cited rule.|
Goblinworks Founder
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.....However, if a player is crafting while he is selling, then they are not focused on one task. So, then if players decided to have their PC craft and sell simultaneously while offline, what if the rate of crafting was slightly...
What if, the offline crafting could only make generic items?
To make masterwork or well crafted items you need to be online and actively creating them.For Offline crafting, you are merely meeting demand for every day merchandise while tending to the occasional customer that needs an item or repair.
I, personally, really like the way Eve handles crafting: its always going at the same rate, whether you are there or not. This creates standard lead times on most items that are predictable. They are able to do this because you are designating workshops to a task, rather than crafting it personally.
I would set up crafting to be a mostly out of game action. Something your character does when you are logged off. You come back on, and you now have a bunch of widgets you didn't have before. In game, crafters would spend much of their time gathering resources, instruction manuals for new things, leveling up their skill (possibly through meeting with masters in the game and doing quests).
Crafting should take time. The ammount of time should be based off of item type and quality, and you should have to wait for good things, IMO. An upper tier sword should take a couple days of real time to craft. But, at the same time, the time costs must be ballanced against how easy it is to lose the item, so perhaps that sword should be lower. There is a ballance here. I think it would best be handled with an exponential curve in time required with only linear growth in power.
What if, the offline crafting could only make generic items?
To make masterwork or well crafted items you need to be online and actively creating them.For Offline crafting, you are merely meeting demand for every day merchandise while tending to the occasional customer that needs an item or repair.
I like that idea. It makes sense.
What about something in the middle:
Allow auto-crafting but limit it a bit. While offline, the player may not auto-craft the “best” or “most recently” accrued crafting formula – this would generally be the “most powerful” item, but not always. The idea here is that, because the formula and knowledge of how to craft that particular item is still rather new, the PC must lock themselves in their basement and practice. They cannot risk being “distracted” by manning a shop. However, once a PC gains more experience in crafting said “new” item, and they obtain “newer” items to craft, the what-was-once “new” item becomes small fry and they have the skill to craft that item in their sleep…hence, the player will now be able to craft said item offline.
I originally suggested offline crafting to:
1 – get past the monotony of “click one hundred times to raise your skill level” when crafting items and
2 – decrease the amount of playing time the player would need to spend building a semi-permanent structure….especially the larger ones. A fully fledged castle could take anywhere between 2 and 5 months to build in-game. With offline crafting, hundreds of players could have their PCs take “their shifts” while offline. Then, when the player returns, their PC’s “shift” would end, and that player could go questing, or gathering materials, or the hundreds of other things one can do in PFO.
Therefore, offline crafting for semi-permanent structures would allow players to work together towards a common goal.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I like that idea. It makes sense.
What about something in the middle:
Allow auto-crafting but limit it a bit. While offline, the player may not auto-craft the “best” or “most recently” accrued crafting formula...
Good Idea. I'm going to use the (rough)EvE Skill formula and Weaponsmith as an example for simplicity sake.
Example Skill tree
-Novice Weaponsmith (Rank 1 only takes roughly 10 minutes to learn)
--Adept Weaponsmith
---Expert Weaponsmith
----Master Weaponsmith
-----Grand Master Weaponsmith
Depending on the types of resources a novice weaponsmith can craft with.. let us assume it's just regular weapon made from the cheapest steel.
While Offline, the Novice can only craft the basics that make up the weapon ie; Arrow heads, spear heads, axe blades, steel shafts, hilts.
While Online the player can craft novice weapons with a chance of masterwork quality. The strength of the weapon is determined by the quality of the steel.
As the player advances his crafting skill, he is able to craft Novice items more readily.
While Offline the Adept could craft any Novice item or part thereof.
Whilst Online, the Adept is able to craft a larger range of weapons, with better quality steel. Again with a chance of masterwork quality only if he is actively crafting while online.
Note: This is only a quickly thrown together example that could be misinterpreted. If it is unclear let me know and I will try to clarify when it isn't 2am
I like that idea. It makes sense.
What about something in the middle:
Allow auto-crafting but limit it a bit. While offline, the player may not auto-craft the “best” or “most recently” accrued crafting formula...Good Idea. I'm going to use the (rough)EvE Skill formula and Weaponsmith as an example for simplicity sake.
Example Skill tree
-Novice Weaponsmith (Rank 1 only takes roughly 10 minutes to learn)
--Adept Weaponsmith
---Expert Weaponsmith
----Master Weaponsmith
-----Grand Master WeaponsmithDepending on the types of resources a novice weaponsmith can craft with.. let us assume it's just regular weapon made from the cheapest steel.
While Offline, the Novice can only craft the basics that make up the weapon ie; Arrow heads, spear heads, axe blades, steel shafts, hilts.
While Online the player can craft novice weapons with a chance of masterwork quality. The strength of the weapon is determined by the quality of the steel.
As the player advances his crafting skill, he is able to craft Novice items more readily.
While Offline the Adept could craft any Novice item or part thereof.
Whilst Online, the Adept is able to craft a larger range of weapons, with better quality steel. Again with a chance of masterwork quality only if he is actively crafting while online.
Note: This is only a quickly thrown together example that could be misinterpreted. If it is unclear let me know and I will try to clarify when it isn't 2am
I like this!! This is exactly what I had in my mind’s eye. Now, just for argument’s sake, if there were about 10 items to craft per skill level (and about, 15 or so, different crafting skills) that would yield somewhere around 750 base options for item/building creation WITHOUT adding additional magical properties. I think that is more than enough to have specialized crafters and to make everyone happy.
But, would there need to be an “endgame” to crafting? At some point, should it be feasible to craft every item both online and offline? Say, a “Crafter of the Gods”, or some such title.
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Goblinworks Founder
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DON'T restrict novices to 'poor quality steel' and DON'T have a piece of equipment's quality/power based purely on the substance.Instead, why not focus.......
I like the idea. I'm not sure how that would translate in game, but we are only talking about steel here, not sky metals, so it would probably work.
Also, I really don't like that 'crafter of the gods' thing Library suggested. Theoretically if someone chose to dedicate all their skill slots to crafting it might be possible, but such a person would be missing out on the other skills necessary to do his job well (such as Marketing/Sales, material harvesting, etc) and would be dependent on others to provide those. Not that there's anything wrong with such hyperspecialization if desired, but it doesn't strike me as something that should be promoted or made easy.
The other problem would be time. There are only so many hours in the day, I have a feeling it would be difficult to really take advantage of more than 2-3 crafts.
I am assuming that the time it takes to reach skill cap with everything in the game would be nigh impossible much like EvE online. It is theoretically possible, but it would take 20+ years to achieve.
Only using rough figures based on speculatonAlong this line of thought, if a player focuses on purely craftsmanship skills, even with the best time management skills in the world, they would only be able to juggle at most, five crafts on the one character in one day.
Again, I'm only using rough figures based on speculation
This would require some extreme time management skill. Even reading back over what I have written I think five crafts on one character in one day is still too generous and I am leaning towards Kyrts suggestion of two-three.
Again we can only speculate as far as the crafting goes, but if the Base Skill for Smith(using for continuity) is Black smith with 1-5 ranks, this then branches off to Steel Smith, which might branch off to Armor and Weapon smith, which again branches off to Individual weapon specializations, Armor type specializations like chain linking and plate mail. Assuming the skill system is this diverse, you will have your hands pretty much full just with smithing as a craft if you want to be the best smith in the world.
The game might not be this complex (I hope it is though) but I'm using EvE as my baseline for ideas. I might need to fire up my EvE account again for more inspiration.
Elth has some interesting ideas, but I would like to raise a counter-suggestion.
DON'T restrict novices to 'poor quality steel' and DON'T have a piece of equipment's quality/power based purely on the substance.
Instead, why not focus on having a scaling level of craftsmanship? A novice needs higher quality material to produce equivalent equipment (within their limits) where-as a more skillful craftsman can accomplish more with lesser quality materials.
For example a Novice Craftsman might need Medium Grade Iron to produce a 'standard weapon' while a more skilled Craftsman could use Low Grade Iron for the same results.
On the other end of the scale, a Novice Craftsman could produce a basic shield from a dragon scale, but the more skillful the craftsman, the more of it's benefits are drawn out. (More durability/defense, possible energy resistance, etc.)
Good counter suggestion. I think that a master crafter should gain better attributes from lower quality material than a novice crafter. I know your dragon scale suggestion was only hypothetical, but, novices were never allowed to touch the higher quality steal until they proved themselves (became an apprentice, in game terms). In olden times, using better quality materials was a matter of pride and social status. Masters worked with “dragon scale” because they were rich AND they were the only ones trusted to use it due to its rarity. Besides, what self respecting master of their craft would use poor quality supplies?
One question I have is how will crafters learn the “blueprints” of their trade. In short, how will a bladesmith learn or find the designs to make a new weapon? Three suggestions-
1 - Have an auto-learn system where, once the skill reaches a certain threshold, the PC automatically knows how to craft X object. This option lacks individuality, effort, AND social interaction. Next.
2 – Have PCs barter and trade “blueprints” at some sort of PC-controlled market. In LOTRO, Players were able to buy “instructions” (I think that is what they were called) from NPC vendors. If you had the gold, you could buy the “instructions”. Crafting what was on the "instructions", however, was dependant upon the skill level of the character. So, you could get all the “instructions” you wanted for the best sword in the game, but good look understanding what it was saying at lvl 1.
In PFO, the role of the NPC would be replaced by the player, obviously. So, crafters would barter and sell various “blueprints” to one another. However, if one player holds the “blueprints” of one particular sword and decides to NOT sell it to anyone else, that PC would have a monopoly on the in-game economy. And there WILL be people who would do that. So, then it becomes a question of "will monopolies on crafting be allowed?". I am one who believes they should not.
3 – PCs would have to actually train other PCs to increase their crafting skill and gain the “blueprints” to craft new things. This could be in the form of PC-generated quests, working and finishing a crafting project together while online (not offline), or some sort of co op mini game. Really, the possibilities are endless. If teamwork is involved, both PCs would gain XP towards their craft because they are both practicing and honing their skill. This is insentive for more skilled PCs to trane less skilled PCs. Less skilled PCs could even pay some sum of in-game curency to be trained.
Do please take notice that the example skill rankings we were given didn't include an 'apprentice rank.' I was assuming that 'apprentice' was either the rank of Novice or a non-gameplay rank immediately before Novice. Nobody I know of wants to play an ultra-rookie who hasn't even learned the most basic of basics and doesn't even qualify as an apprentice.
Oops...there goes me not reading carefully again. My bad. For the record, I think your scaling idea is a grand one. I am not sure how it would be implemented though...