First, the question I am confused about: Do an Eidolon's evolutions function when the Eidolon is under the effect of a spell from the polymorph subschool?
Polymorph rules on natural weapons etc:
Eidolon Evolutions:
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires. The eidolon’s Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner’s class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner’s class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.
Text from Eidolon Evolution Pool Entry:
The value given in this column is the total number of points in the eidolon’s evolution pool. Points from this pool can be spent on a wide variety of modifications and upgrades that add new abilities, attacks, and powers to the eidolon. Whenever the summoner gains a level, the number in this pool increases and the summoner can spend these points to change the abilities of the eidolon. These choices are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell).
I have seen many posts claiming that you lose all of your eidolon's evolutions that give extra arms, natural weapons, etc. The only special Eidolon power I assume you would lose is its innate darkvision, since it is not an optional addition. Is there some clarification as to whether or not an Eidolon's evolutions fall under the exempted category?
The eidolon is not a polymorph effect. The synthesist can change shape but remains inside the eidolon (unless the synthesist becomes larger size than the eidolon).
The eidolon is not a polymorph effect. The synthesist can change shape but remains inside the eidolon (unless the synthesist becomes larger size than the eidolon).
I appreciate your quick response, but I specifically have Alter Self in mind. Since Eidolons can share spells with their summoner, they can be affected along with their summoner, but does that mean they lose access to their evolutions for the duration? Or are their evolutions applied to their new form "after" they have taken it? Only certain evolutions require a "base form" (pounce requiring quadraped, etc.) and I could see those ceasing to function, but I see no where mentioned that their other evolutions require anything other than other evolutions and their summoner being a certain level, yet I have seen many claims that such evolutions are lost, and I am merely trying to get a definitive yes or no as to whether or not this is the case.
Edit: added emphasis
Alter Self changes your eidolon's form from whatever it was originally to whatever Small or Medium humanoid form you designate. For the duration of the spell, the eidolon would lose any evolutions that are not compatible with its new form -- just as a Lizardfolk polymorphed into a human would lose its claw and bite attacks.
Alter Self changes your eidolon's form from whatever it was originally to whatever Small or Medium humanoid form you designate. For the duration of the spell, the eidolon would lose any evolutions that are not compatible with its new form -- just as a Lizardfolk polymorphed into a human would lose its claw and bite attacks.
But most Eidolon evolutions are compatible with any form. Not only that, the Eidolon is, after all, an aspect of an outsider that is shaped by the will of his summoner. In this sense, I consider an Eidolon more of a class feature rather than a particular type of creature.
And as per the entry for polymorph, any class feature that allows you to add features is exempted. I assumed that the evolutions given by the evolution pool fall under features that can be added, and that only evolutions that the Eidolon no longer qualifies for would be suppressed (such as pounce needing the quadruped base form).
An eidelon is a class feature, but evolutions are an eidelon feature. they can be abilities, powers or other upgrades (read: not 'class features.') If you polymorph your summoner the eidelon will stick around. If you poly your eidelon it becomes whatever you poly'ed it into.
The claws in the example come from a sorcerer bloodline. The bloodline is not prevented by the poly therefore the sorc can later add claws to the new form. I would rule if the claws were grown before the poly they poly would remove the claws and the sorcerer would have to regrow their claws (using another free action).
If your eidelon is poly'ed into something and then the summoner casts the spell 'extra eveloution' then I would rule you could add the evolution after the poly, but that is a stretch imho.
EDIT:
And as per the entry for polymorph, any class feature that allows you to add features is exempted. I assumed that the evolutions given by the evolution pool fall under features that can be added, and that only evolutions that the Eidolon no longer qualifies for would be suppressed (such as pounce needing the quadruped base form).
Evolutions are not added (except at new levels), evelutions are pre-existing (at least at the time of the poly casting) (unless you level up while the the eidelon is poly... which could happen :)
An eidelon is a class feature, but evolutions are an eidelon feature. they can be abilities, powers or other upgrades (read: not 'class features.') If you polymorph your summoner the eidelon will stick around. If you poly your eidelon it becomes whatever you poly'ed it into.
The claws in the example come from a sorcerer bloodline. The bloodline is not prevented by the poly therefore the sorc can later add claws to the new form. I would rule if the claws were grown before the poly they poly would remove the claws and the sorcerer would have to regrow their claws (using another free action).
If your eidelon is poly'ed into something and then the summoner casts the spell 'extra eveloution' then I would rule you could add the evolution after the poly, but that is a stretch imho.
I see. Under that same vein, would you allow transmogrify to function on a polymorphed eidolon?
Edit:
Evolutions are not added (except at new levels), evolutions are pre-existing (at least at the time of the poly casting) (unless you level up while the the eidelon is poly... which could happen :)
I was thinking about that actually. So would you rule that the eidolon's old form had no more evolutions, the evolutions it had previous the poly, or all the evolutions of the poly?
I guess what I am getting it is that I think there should be some more straight-foward rules for the interaction of Eidolons and polymorph spells specifically. For instance, I would suggest that after an Eidolon has been polymorphed, a summoner can spend a standard action (or longer) to cause the Eidolon to manifest one or more of its evolutions (that it still qualifies for). As opposed to having to cast transmogrify (or even leveling :P) to get your Eidolon to manifest evolutions that it already has and otherwise qualifies for.
Transmogrify would probably take too long, given the limited durations of most polymorph spells.
The Evolution Surge spells should work just fine, though, with the only restriction being the fact that the eidolon's base form may have been effectively changed by the spell (so an eidolon affected by Alter Self would be considered a biped regardless of its original base form).
But what is the real point of this exercise? If you are trying to make your eidolon look like a standard animal or humanoid, adding back its Tentacle evolution (for example) would totally defeat the purpose.
Transmogrify would probably take too long, given the limited durations of most polymorph spells.
The Evolution Surge spells should work just fine, though, with the only restriction being the fact that the eidolon's base form may have been effectively changed by the spell (so an eidolon affected by Alter Self would be considered a biped regardless of its original base form).
But what is the real point of this exercise? If you are trying to make your eidolon look like a standard animal or humanoid, adding back its Tentacle evolution (for example) would totally defeat the purpose.
I was attempting to find a way to make a large eidolon medium size for prolonged periods, via greater hat of disguise, as well as making a synthesist able to completely blend in with his aspect. Sorry for the prolonged response time, short attention span and all that.
I was attempting to find a way to make a large eidolon medium size for prolonged periods, via greater hat of disguise, as well as making a synthesist able to completely blend in with his aspect. Sorry for the prolonged response time, short attention span and all that.Transmogrify would probably take too long, given the limited durations of most polymorph spells.
The Evolution Surge spells should work just fine, though, with the only restriction being the fact that the eidolon's base form may have been effectively changed by the spell (so an eidolon affected by Alter Self would be considered a biped regardless of its original base form).
But what is the real point of this exercise? If you are trying to make your eidolon look like a standard animal or humanoid, adding back its Tentacle evolution (for example) would totally defeat the purpose.
Ah, that greater hat of disguise is a great item -- it is definitely going on the wishlist for the summoner in my Pathfinder game.
In any case, that item basically gives you an indefinite duration Alter Self -- very handy for a large or huge eidolon who might not otherwise be able to fit everywhere that the rest of the party can. If I were you, I would make use of three basic forms:
Original form: Use this whenever you are going into a fight and have room to maneuver. In this form you can do maximum damage and take advantage of all of your evolutions.
Lizardfolk form: This is your best form for combat when your eidolon does not have enough room to simply remove the hat and resume its original form. This form has some nice advantages -- bite and claw attacks, natural armor, the multiattack feat (even if your eidolon does not have it yet), and a tail (with no inherent attack -- but your tail related evolutions, if any, should still work). You would only lose the evolutions associated with body parts that the lizardfolk does not have (primarily things like gore and wing buffet) but you might actually gain other attacks since you would have claw and bite even if your eidolon in its normal form does not. Further, if your summoner casts any of the Evolution Surge spells while the eidolon is in this form, you could add back missing body parts (such as winges or extra arms or legs) and thus regain the attacks associated with them.
Social form: If you want to bring your eidolon with you in a social situation, simply have it assume the form of a human or other core race. That form would lose most if not all of its natural attacks, but it could blend in as well as your less socially adept fellow party members (assuming you haven't done anything to boost its charisma or charisma based skills).
I just noticed that I got a few things wrong above -- you do not get the natural armor bonus or the Multiattack feat of a lizardfolk, but most of the rest appears to work.
I just noticed that I got a few things wrong above -- you do not get the natural armor bonus or the Multiattack feat of a lizardfolk, but most of the rest appears to work.
I appreciate the input, but I think I am set on changeling. No more bite, but it appears almost human so it could also fill the social role and I can focus on feats for claws. It was going to serve as a bodyguard type so being 100% battle ready at all times is a priority.
PS. tbh, I checked out lizardfolk before I settled on changeling, but never saw bite + claws, that's what I get for skimming I suppose.