The dastardly racist James Jacobs has damned our race as nothing more than monstrous pillagers and raiders! It is clear that all we are to him is walking experience points, to serve the genocidal urges of those "good aligned" player characters! Why do we tolerate this, my friends? Why do we stand by as our whole race is treated as nothing more than cheap adventurer bait? I say we rise up! Rise up, and show James Jacobs what our people can do! Rise up, and show those murderous bands of adventurers that it is most definitely NOT okay to kill "savages" for the loot! Rise up, and take our rightful place in this world!
Who's with me?
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Down, you vile, vile beast!
Here, my friends, we see the unjustifiable violence inherent in the system! I have done nothing but preach freedom, and he seeks to slay me like a dog!
Normally I jump in, but what's the point. It's never going to get any better.
It's damn frustrating.
Take heart, friend! Only through struggle shall we be victorious!
eating orcs isn't cannibalism.
eating orcs isn't cannibalism.
Would you say the same if it were me eating a human? I think not.
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The dastardly racist James Jacobs has damned our race as nothing more than monstrous pillagers and raiders! It is clear that all we are to him is walking experience points, to serve the genocidal urges of those "good aligned" player characters! Why do we tolerate this, my friends? Why do we stand by as our whole race is treated as nothing more than cheap adventurer bait? I say we rise up! Rise up, and show James Jacobs what our people can do! Rise up, and show those murderous bands of adventurers that it is most definitely NOT okay to kill "savages" for the loot! Rise up, and take our rightful place in this world!
Who's with me?
I'm not with you, 'cause orcs stink.
But I do think it's odd that only 'good' races like gnomes and dwarves have 'race hatred' as a racial trait.
Orcs should have race hatred - dwarves and humans, and hobgoblins should have race hatred - elves, and bugbears should have race hatred - everyone.
And bite attacks for everyone! What's the point of all them sharp pointy teeth on a kobold, goblinoid, orc, gnoll or (possibly) ogre, if they don't get to bite people with 'em? Chew 'em up, boys! Meat's back on the menu!
I've been trying for years and have taken abuse for it on the side here and elsewhere. Haven't gotten anywhere.Take heart, friend! Only through struggle shall we be victorious!Normally I jump in, but what's the point. It's never going to get any better.
It's damn frustrating.
Have you tried boiling the bones of your opponents?
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Santa Claus, The Krampus, a stupid orc, and a smart orc are playing bap-a-goblin. Who wins?
The dastardly racist James Jacobs has damned our race as nothing more than monstrous pillagers and raiders! It is clear that all we are to him is walking experience points, to serve the genocidal urges of those "good aligned" player characters! Why do we tolerate this, my friends? Why do we stand by as our whole race is treated as nothing more than cheap adventurer bait? I say we rise up! Rise up, and show James Jacobs what our people can do! Rise up, and show those murderous bands of adventurers that it is most definitely NOT okay to kill "savages" for the loot! Rise up, and take our rightful place in this world!
Who's with me?
I'm not with you, 'cause orcs stink.
But I do think it's odd that only 'good' races like gnomes and dwarves have 'race hatred' as a racial trait.
Orcs should have race hatred - dwarves and humans, and hobgoblins should have race hatred - elves, and bugbears should have race hatred - everyone.
And bite attacks for everyone! What's the point of all them sharp pointy teeth on a kobold, goblinoid, orc, gnoll or (possibly) ogre, if they don't get to bite people with 'em? Chew 'em up, boys! Meat's back on the menu!
I don't stink any worse than Jackal-people.
Yes. My bite is vicious.
Santa Claus, The Krampus, a stupid orc, and a smart orc are playing bap-a-goblin. Who wins?
Smart Orc, every time.
Smart orcs, like Santa Claus and the Krampus, don't exist.
Smart orcs, like Santa Claus and the Krampus, don't exist.
This is particularly the type of refuse I speak out against.
I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. orcs a 14th level party could mow through?...
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"Why is the xp talking?" Stabs the orc
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I don't stink any worse than Jackal-people.
Gnollish musk is a manly scent, not a 'stink.' You can't just roll around in any dead thing to cultivate a proper aroma, after all. It's got to age a bit, like a fine wine...
And for those discussing orcish / human consumption, it's not cannibalism unless you eat your own species. If an orc (or elf, alligator, whatever) eats a human, it's anthropophagy, and that's totally okay, by orcish (and alligator) social mores (not so much elvish custom, but they've always been finicky eaters. Look how thin they are! And so unhealthy! Eat something, bubbala!).
I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. orcs a 14th level party could mow through?...
I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. humans I can mow through? Oh, wait. That's make me evil. Funny how that works, is it not?
Now the klingons are good, Driz'zt is good, and they have grey necromancers that supply cheap day labor, so wtf; go ahead and water down orcs too.
An orc scientist discovered genetics growing peas!
Who did Shakespeare rip off?
An orc wrote all his sonnets.
I want an orc on the moon by 2015.
I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. orcs a 14th level party could mow through?...I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. humans I can mow through? Oh, wait. That's make me evil. Funny how that works, is it not?
Naah.
Orcs just scuzz up the place.
I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. orcs a 14th level party could mow through?...I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. humans I can mow through? Oh, wait. That's make me evil.
"Yes it does" smites the Orc
"Why is the xp talking?" Stabs the orc
Another fine example of the "Lawful Good" Paladin. Apparently, genocide is all right if they're more primitive than you are.
"Yes it does" smites the OrcI wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. orcs a 14th level party could mow through?...I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. humans I can mow through? Oh, wait. That's make me evil.
Now YOU'RE evil.
Oh, wait; no you're not.
"Yes it does" smites the OrcI wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. orcs a 14th level party could mow through?...I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. humans I can mow through? Oh, wait. That's make me evil.
The irony is amazing.
"Yes it does" smites the OrcI wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. orcs a 14th level party could mow through?...I wonder how many standard, run of the mill 1 h.d. humans I can mow through? Oh, wait. That's make me evil.Now YOU'RE evil.
Oh, wait; no you're not.
That is precisely my point.
Well, I'm chaotic neutral, and have all sortsa cleave feats.
Let's go gettem.
John Wesley Hardin.....a humon so mean he once shot an orc just for snoring.
I like half orc babes.
How do you keep an orc busy?
Tell him there's an elf finger pie in the corner and put him in a round room.
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Good orcs are sparkly.
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Having had a deep fondness for Orcs since I first encountered Orkworld by John Wick (Maybe longer, I dimly recall getting my Waugh!!! on with Warhammer 40K) I will admit to feelings of a similar nature. I will however admit that while I was rather disappointed with Orcs of Golarion by comparison to the 'pretty' PC races of Golarion PC's I have read(specifically Gnomes & Halflings), I'm not sure that it is really that much worse than Goblins of Golarion (which I love), at least not in terms of either of them being painted more monstrous than the other.
I would say my greater disappointment with the treatment Orcs get is due to the feeling that places like Belkzen really only survive because the 'good guys' have bigger fish to fry. Orcs are written up like degenerate thugs just waiting for the expiration stamp to come down.
Mr Jacobs has said that Orcs are treated as monsters in the written material because they look like monsters. Well, Drow are treated as monsters in the written material because they have been written to be monsters, and yet they still look fairly hot (in a slutty bad-dominatrix way). So I see an inherent dichotomy here.
The only other thing I have to say at the moment is that as much as I am disappointed with the treatment orcs have received so far, lets please recall that we still love this game & appreciate the job Mr. Jacobs & the others at Paizo have done. Would we like them to treat orcs better? Yes. Lets see if we can't come up with suggestions for how rather than banging the same drum I'm pretty sure they have heard multiple times before.
I will actually post more on this idea later, it's just really late where I am & I'm getting tired & incomprehensible right now.
Love orcs.
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The only other thing I have to say at the moment is that as much as I am disappointed with the treatment orcs have received so far, lets please recall that we still love this game & appreciate the job Mr. Jacobs & the others at Paizo have done. Would we like them to treat orcs better? Yes. Lets see if we can't come up with suggestions for how rather than banging the same drum I'm pretty sure they have heard multiple times before.
Agreed. I don't like seeing criticism of their handling of orcs and half-orcs turning into personal attacks, joking or otherwise. I very much love the setting for the most part, which is why it's especially frustrating to see Always Chaotic Evil rearing its ugly head or seeing the desire to have something beyond Always Chaotic Evil turned into an April Fool's joke.
Also have more to post, but busy with work and waiting for a cooler head on the matter.
But what about character's with names such as Orcbane....or Orcslayer...or Thumper of Orcs? If we make orcs non-evil as a standard they would need to change their names....and that cost lots of money and causes alot of confusion. That is very unfair to them...if orcs were such a 'good' nature people like you are saying surely they will make this sacfice and remain evil. ;)
In all seriousness....you know Pazio does not have cannon police out there making you run everything by The Book. If you want to put in good orcish tribes in your world no one is stopping you. You can even share it on the site.
Personaly I like orcs being creatures of evil instincts....which is reenforced by a their society. Because it raises serveral good RPing opportunities for all players(the whole debate on what to do with the orcish women and children) and especialy players who play orc and 1/2 orc PCs as they must continuely battle their baser instincts.
I don't get it...do you guys want to play green skinned humans with tusks and str bonus...or do you guys want to play orcs?
eating orcs isn't cannibalism.
That's where they get SPAM from; it's Orc meat. And why it's so cheap and plentiful.
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.or do you guys want to play orcs?
Absolutely not. But many of us also want more range beyond Always Chaotic Evil for our orcs. A lot of us would love to see alternate cultures as richly developed as what has been given to the other races rather than just the same old thing. And many of us would like to not have rape forced into our half-orcs origins.
There are plenty of ways to make orcs feel like orcs that don't depend on making them completely evil monsters. Same thing for half-orcs, plenty of ways to make them feel unique without requiring them to be tragic down tot he last one.
All it takes is some creativity. Values dissonance alone could make non-evil orcs stand out as clearly orcy while being their own thing.
As for losing the RP-opportunity about "what to do with the women and children"... Honestly, in my experience it's mostly been used as an excuse for some players to commit "heroic" genocide and make other players miserable. Personally, it's never been fun for me when playing a genuinely good character to have attempts at sparing and/or redeeming orcs/goblins/whatever shut down or blow up and backfire "just because that's how they are". And RP-opportunities don't go away when a race is given range and nuance. They grow.
It would also be nice to see less skittishness about using half-orcs in art simply because they're "monstrous" looking. In this post-WoW world, I really don't think that's going to confuse gamers all that much to see a heroic half-orc.
As for there being no Canon Police...well that's great if one is the GM. Not so much if you're a player looking to Orcs of Golarion for help.
I'm as much angered by the treatment of the Orcs in Golarion as a whole as I am angered by James' view on them (mostly because his view was overly biased, and he wasn't even sorry about that). Always Chaotic Evil is an exceedingly stupid trope, and if the Orcs in my setting end up like that while I am the DM, I will also declare that every Paladin MUST play Lawful Stupid or I will have them lose their powers very fast. Yes, a large amount (60%-70%) of Orc tribes are evil (unless you are playing a Pathfinder game in Eberron), BUT I think there should also be like a 30%-40% population of chaotic neutral Orc tribes. Good as an alignment for an Orc should still be uncommon among Orcs, but not to the point that we will have the Driz'zt syndrome all over again.
Personal attacks? I wasn't attacking anyone, I was simply saying that the trope of some race being "Always Chaotic Evil" is stupid in my opinion and that James Jacobs happened to have justifications for "Always Evil Orcs" that I really do not agree with. Also, I see a lot of hypocrisy here when the Tiefling racial book talked about good-aligned Tieflings even though Tieflings have ancestors MADE OF PURE EVIL!!
Also, Mikaze. I've been trolled on occasion and attacked personally for my beliefs not just here, but on other D&D forums as well. I've just gotten used to the facts that some people WILL disagree with me, and that a lot of people on the internet behave like morons just because they can. Lastly, a little clarification for the OP: The proper term for James' racial bias is specieist, not racist. Racism happens among humans and elves, but not among orcs who are all green, all the time.
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Caugh...It isn't "always chaotic evil" no creature aside from animals (always neutral) and outsiders gets the "always XY" stamp. Orks are generally evil.
Neutral and good orks are an exeption to their culture (and probably loners/refugees whereever there are taken/dead meat) but they do exist.
You can dislike that too if you wan't (you probably will because a) it doesn't present a more differentiated ork culture and b) because you probably won't get your purely good/neutral ork tribes, but don't dislike it for the wrong reasons.
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Brothers and sisters!
The sad truth is that Paizo is a conglomeration of deeply, deeply racist obscurantists. I have long (well, for the last year or so) campaigned against their vile bigotry when it comes to my own race. But as Lenin teaches us in What Is To Be Done?, the revolutionary vanguard party must stand against all forms of oppression and be a tribune of all of the exploited peoples.
Since the days of the Quest for Sky, the orcs have been robbed of their lands, possessions and lives by the dwarves. Is it any wonder that the peoples of Belkzen spent so long attempting to smash the Sky Citadels?
I have adventured with three orcs: Krugo Giantskinner, Grog and Dok. The first one was an evil bastard, but Grog was strictly CN and Dok was even LG...and a wizard! Verily, life is more complicated than the Bestiary, that collection of racist lies, would have us believe.
From here on in, I commit the Commonwealth Party of Galt (M-L) to joining with Comrade Boneboiler in a united front to fight against the oppression of the orcs.
Orc liberation through Permanent revolution!
Vive le Galt!
@Anklebiter
The term is specieist. And I agree fully with your post.
@Feytharn.
You've worded that post in a rather noxious way with the whole "you can dislike this, and probably will do so" line.
Anyway, why is it so hard to imagine a few Orc tribes dedicated to Gorum who are Chaotic Neutral instead of Chaotic Evil? Why does that cause heart attacks or crying and screaming like someone's been violated? We're trying to get rid of the unfortunate implications that the good guys can murder these beings "just because" or fall back on things like "these savages deserve no better". Keep in mind, at worst it makes me think of the players as Nazis, and that's not good when you keep in mind that I am Jewish and know friends who's family members died at the hands of Nazi Germany.
(Also, I have the vague suspicion that this post will get deleted even though I'm not really violating any messageboard policies)
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It wasn't my intend to sound noxious or toxic. I used that line, because I was aware that my argument was in now way improving golarions version of orks to you. Sorry if it came across a different way.
BTW - I was neither crying crying nor screaming about your arguments so, if you aimed that at me - and by the structure of your post you did - I didn't deserve that.
To me, the alignment system doesn't mean there are only 9 kinds of personalitys and three types of virtuous / three types of degraded people. A creature being evil does not make it ok to slaughter it in my games (and for many years I did't have a player who thought it ok) so I wasn't even aware I kicked that particular can of worms.
I am german myself, my grandmother was from a Jewish family but luckily escaped the concentration camps because my grandfather who was chief of the police in his hometown along with loyal coworkes was able to keep that a secret.
Through history projects I was reading letters from soldiers to their teachers and their family, so I am deeply (and still today painfully) aware of the good and the virtuous you find in groups/societys that are generally perceived (or are) evil.
I was not intending to make personal attacks, and I am sorry if I came across as doing so. The example of "crying and screaming" was more towards those who make fun of the idea of non-evil orcs or get enraged by it.
And I think one problem is that alignment should be an indicator, not a weight that dictates all. The exceptions for that are Paladins and Anti-Paladins (I still prefer the term Blackguard, though) so yeah. Anyway, I don't think we should dwell upon the topic of what happened back in Germany at the time because things would get ugly very quick and this thread isn't really the place for it.
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And I think one problem is that alignment should be an indicator, not a weight that dictates all. The exceptions for that are Paladins and Anti-Paladins (I still prefer the term Blackguard, though) so yeah. Anyway, I don't think we should dwell upon the topic of what happened back in Germany at the time because things would get ugly very quick and this thread isn't really the place for it.
I completly agree with that. I think though, the problem with alignemt is more a problem with player perception (maybe presentation, although I never perceived alignemt different from what I do now) then with the rules.
@Anklebiter
The term is specieist. And I agree fully with your post.
I have trouble calling it specieist when the creatures in question can freely reproduce and birth viable offspring which themselves are able to reproduce.
Grant you, this is a magic world where genetic rules are made to be broken, but still... it isn't as if humans or orcs are all that inherently magical. They don't have that same excuse as dragons/demons/angels/fey.
Just saying, under the circumstances, races might be more applicable than species.
Point taken. Anyway, back to supporting Orcs!!
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(Also, I have the vague suspicion that this post will get deleted even though I'm not really violating any messageboard policies)
Dude, you have no f@%!ing reason to worry. The political threads around here have a very high f~&+ing tolerance. Though you did bring up f*~+ing Nazis, which will probably mean another f$&#ing tangent . . .
Oh yeah, there is a topic.
Big ups to my orc bros! Down with the dictatorship of wealth and all that! (More when I am not posting on low amounts of sleep. Which, in retrospect, usually ends up badly because I post stuff like f~&%ety f+%~ing f@$+ you.)
I brought up the Nazis only as it felt appropriate given how I felt about the whole "always evil" thing and the implications it brings on about the player characters and their intentions. Anyway, I wonder if James Jacobs or any of the other members of Paizo staff is even noticing this thead.