Hi-
I'm just wondering about the relation ship between charisma and appearance. Is there any? I've heard some people say that a high charisma score reflects positively on character appearance. I'm assuming because it applies to the diplomacy skill.
Anybody have high charisma, yet ugly looking characters?
Now what about the intimidate skill? I can understand high charisma characters being intimidating. Just about any kind of mob movie would give you some examples of those characters. However what about physically intimidating? If I have a character that is say 7 foot tall and chews nails, but has no charisma, how is that not intimidating?
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Most people usually associate high charisma with beauty.
However they are not linked. You can be ugly but charismatic. I have played a fighter with lots of scars but 13 charisma. A geeky wizard with serious acne and an overbite and a 14 charisma. I like to give my characters a hook and sometimes the easiest hook is interesting looks.
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To truck out the old dead horse that is often used to illustrate high charisma/low attractivness; Hitler was a small dumpy looking fellow. Receding hairline, and a bit of a pinched, weaselly face. Not generally anyone's ideal of male beauty. Yet he was undeniably one of the most charismatic leaders of the 20th century. (A sick twisted bastard, to be sure but he had charisma and leadership in spades.)
There is a feat; Intimidating Prowess that can help with the 'big scarey, quiet guy' type of character. It allows you to add Str as well as Cha to Intimidate. Best used for big scarey Bards, such as His Majesty, König Odegar.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Vinnie Listen, Rokko, when we're workin' a mark, you gotta let me do the talkin'.
Rokko Aww, but Vinnie, ya know I can make 'em eat furniture, if they don't do what I say.
Vinnie Yeah, I know it, and you know it. But -- listen Rokko -- when you threaten somebody, you're not focused enough.
Rokko I don't understand. I tell 'em that they have to pay up. I whack my palm when I'm talkin, the same as you do.
Vinnie Yeah, but you're lookin around, instead of staring 'em in the eye. Sometimes you mumble, and other times you sound like you're pronouncin' rehearsed lines on some stage somewhere. You gotta show 'em conviction, that you're gonna back up your threats.
Rokko But I do back up my threats!
Vinnie Yeah, but you're not sellin' that. If you keep up with the furniture-feedin', word'll get around, and you'll get a reputation. But to a mark that don't know you, you come across as somebody who's not too sure, who might be bluffing. Maybe you won't have the stomach for it, or maybe you'll be willin' to cut a deal at the last moment. Or, sometimes you come across as all violent, and the mark don't pay up 'cause he thinks you'll wail on him no matter what. They don't know with you. With me, they see I'm a little crazy, and I show 'em that there's only one way to keep you and that meathook away from their private parts, and that's to do business.
Rokko That all sounds hard, Vinnie.
Vinnie Well, I can't pick up a horse like you can, either, Rokko. We all got stuff we're good at.
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High charisma, not so high looks: Mickey Rourke.
Decent looks, poor charisma: Cast of Jersey Shore.
I have played, and have seen this played at my table.
High charisma, not so high looks: Mickey Rourke.
Decent looks, poor charisma: Cast of Jersey Shore.
Not to mention intelligence is their dump stat!
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From a classic point of view, consider the Phantom from Phantom of the Opera (your choice of book, movie, or broadway production). Horribly disfigured, and yet he is arguably the most charismatic character of the story. Powerful force of will and the ability to perform almost supernaturally well in the realm of voice and instrumentation.
No, they are not meant to be linked. Charisma provides a poor reference for general 'good looks'. At least in my own opinion.
Master Arminas
High charisma, not so high looks: Mickey Rourke.
Really? That's your go-to "unattractive, but with a high CHA" pull?
I use Bill Clinton personally.
High charisma, not so high looks: Mickey Rourke.Really? That's your go-to "unattractive, but with a high CHA" pull?
Ah, but at what stage of Mickey Rourke's career?
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Hi-
I'm just wondering about the relation ship between charisma and appearance. Is there any? I've heard some people say that a high charisma score reflects positively on character appearance. I'm assuming because it applies to the diplomacy skill.
Anybody have high charisma, yet ugly looking characters?
Now what about the intimidate skill? I can understand high charisma characters being intimidating. Just about any kind of mob movie would give you some examples of those characters. However what about physically intimidating? If I have a character that is say 7 foot tall and chews nails, but has no charisma, how is that not intimidating?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Remember, if you have 19 Charisma you're this pretty!
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Doesn't look so great to you, maybe. But what do the other night hags think?
Remember, if you have 19 Charisma you're this pretty!
I dunno. Are they lesbians?
I find it ironic that your attempt at supporting the claim that charisma does not include looks is an individual who is a pariah specifically because of his looks, and is forced to resort to terrorism because of this.
He was a pariah, no doubt. But, he was highly charismatic, and when he sang it was as if the voices of angels had been rendered upon mortal man. To paraphrase the book. And yes, I picked a rather extreme example of abysmal comeliness and extraordinary charisma, didn't I?
Master Arminas
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Doesn't look so great to you, maybe. But what do the other night hags think?
Remember, if you have 19 Charisma you're this pretty!
That is average, like a human 10 is to a human
That is average, like a human 10 is to a humanDoesn't look so great to you, maybe. But what do the other night hags think?
Remember, if you have 19 Charisma you're this pretty!
So they're not very pretty even for lesbian night hags!
charisma is so confusing! Q.Q /sarcasm
You mean like Steve Buscemi?
Dude, Gregori had an 18 Cha.
He was a lardbutt.
Gregori from Kingmaker part 2? My party killed the crap out of him by challenging him to an honorable duel (they succeeded really damn well on the checks to taunt him). Anyway, Charisma might be affected by looks, but it cannot be the ONLY thing that affects the stat. I mean, Mussolini and Stalin weren't poster boys for "beauty"/"good looks", but they were pretty damned charismatic, just like a certain someone who was allied with one of those two.
Gregori from Kingmaker part 2? My party killed the crap out of him by challenging him to an honorable duel (they succeeded really damn well on the checks to taunt him). Anyway, Charisma might be affected by looks, but it cannot be the ONLY thing that affects the stat.
That's the one.
He works for our kingdom now.
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Perfect real life example of someone who wasn't good looking but had an insanely high charisma would be Adolf Hitler
You mean like Steve Buscemi?
Bill Murray?
You mean like Steve Buscemi?Bill Murray?
Tommy Lee Jones?
High charisma, not so high looks: Mickey Rourke.Really? That's your go-to "unattractive, but with a high CHA" pull?
I never said unattractive. I said high charisma, not so high looks. I find Mickey Rourke to be currently one of the most commanding male presences in cinema, but he is hardly a "pretty boy". Most would agree that Liam Neeson, Robert Downy Jr., and Christian Bale are all more appealing visually than him. Perhaps his rougher looks enhance his presence, perhaps they are just parallel to it, but he is my go to for exactly what I said: "high charisma, not so high looks".
Steve Buscemi might be my call for "unattractive, but with a high CHA".
"A man is like a bear: the more repulsive, the more attractive."
—Spanish proverb
Appearence is a small portion of charisma and can be considered a part of it. It is a combination of Confidence, self understanding and appearence, in that order I believe. Good looks alone does not mean you are charismatic, and being charismatic alone does not mean you have good looks. I'm sure many of you can name an overweight person who was usually the life of the party due to his sense of humor and personality alone. Charismatic spell casting is force of will, you aren't charming magical energies, you are mentally commanding them to do what you say.
I let my players define their high or low charisma score. If they want it to include beauty than it does... if they don't it doesn't. It doesn't hurt the game any and can actually get your players more involved in their characters. I would say that is a good thing.
Besides a high charisma Hag may not be attractive to humans... but she is probably looking very good to other Hags.
We used to have a druid with cha as her dump stat. She claimed that she wasn't ugly, she was just socially awkward
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We used to have a druid with cha as her dump stat. She claimed that she wasn't ugly, she was just socially awkward
Pfft, people just don't understand us druids! Just because we forsake all societal norms of tact, hygiene, having a home, regular contact with other humanoids...
...crap.
Over the years I've noticed a trend among game designers of giving "scary" monsters higher charisma scores, which makes sense, as they are more adept at manipulating others through their mere presence. A few v3.5 guys even confirmed this to be the case. Animals are a great example, those that are often feared by society have higher scores than those who aren't.
Why do hags have 19 charisma? Because they are damn scary!
Though charisma and good looks often go hand in hand, they are not necessarily connected.
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If Charisma is synonymous with beauty, then that means Sorcerors are able to throw fireballs around, levitate themselves, and grant their allies great increases in strength just because they're THAT DARN PRETTY.
It also means that all Gnomes and Halflings are naturally more good-looking than the other races.
Babau demon: This emaciated figure looks like a horned human skeleton smothered within a bone-tight hide of slimy leather.
CHA 16
Hezrou demon:This fiend's armored flesh is scaly and moist. Its large, toothy mouth gapes below a pair of hungry, reptilian eyes.
CHA 18
Glabrezu demon:Four arms grace the torso of this towering monstrosity. The monster's eyes shine with a mix of intelligence and cruelty.
CHA 20
...and one of my favourite:
Omox demon:This rancid-smelling mound of animated ooze has about its shifting countenance the hideous shape of a half-melted man. (yum!)
CHA 18
Even the lowly Dretch has a CHA of 11. Not a spectacular score, but not a penalty either.
Of all the fiends, only the Lemure devil has a negative CHA modifier IIRC.
...and the poor Tiefling is for weird reasons stuck with a -2 CHA...
Well, either charisma deals with appearance, or it doesn't. All these charming half-molten/monstrous people/night hags/lumps of slime indicate that it does not. If it does, you get one hell of a time explaining the prettiness of slimy mauve skin and face tentacles. On the other hand, the description of the stat (written at one point, by someone who presumably had an idea about this issue) says it does. Thus, we have conflicting evidence here, and this discussion keeps popping up.
My take is that it doesn't. Charisma does in no way deal with how pretty you are. Problem solved. Whether you have spiky boils in your face or classically beautiful lines, your charisma is not your looks, but your self-esteem, your force of personality, your attractiveness (which is entirely divorced from looks, you primitive screwheads). I have seen so many people dump charisma to painful levels, and then claim that they are really beautiful, only socially awkward or even blatantly wicked. Thus, they want not only to play out their (often lewd) I-wish-I-was-pretty fantasies, they also dump their charisma, and they can play as nasty as they like to others, which motivates them getting a good modifier to intimidate (whine whine please DM whine whine), and if anyone tells them to go sodomize themselves, they really shouldn't, because they're so pretty, you know?
I find this absolutely sickening. I guess it says something about our culture when looking good is the highest goal of a significant part of the population.
When I DM, people can choose how they look, from pretty to foul, but this will always be interpreted in light of the character's charisma. You can be as pretty as you want, but with a dumped charisma, nobody wants to be with you anyway. Without charisma, you're not going to impress people with your coolness, people don't listen to you, you don't get invitations, and so on. You want all that, then pay the points to get there. And if your big fantasy is looking good and getting all the girls you want, then maybe a gym card and better food is a more worthwhile investment than cluttering down a shared fantasy world with your sexual urges?
EDIT: Sorry if I am crude and blunt here. It's just a topic that keeps haunting me every single time I make characters with new people.
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My wife is playing a PFS character who has the reverse of this. She was looking for a female elf image and she could only find really good looking types as there's no such thing as an ugly elf.
Unfortunately her character had a charisma of 8. She therefore decided to play the character as a shy, timid creature who rarely spoke up. Hence good looks, low charisma.
Wow... I'm sensing a lot of bile Sissyl.
I certainly don't claim to represent the population in any way, but I'd like to think I'm in no way abusing anything by playing a Cha 8, badass 'cool' tough guy with a certain 'presence' and is generally listened to in matters of his personal expertise? (And from fear occasionally :P)
Does it help that this character, who admittedly makes frequent use of prostitutes, is in no way sexualized in the roleplay, nor attempts to 'put the moves' on female characters?
The bile was that obvious? =)
If I DM for such a character, any presence would be due to reputation or because he was directly threatening. As you say, people would listen to him if they knew he was well versed in the relevant field. Using prostitutes is hardly out of character for a low charisma character, is it?
I don't mind at all putting in plots of romance, intrigue or the like, but I need to be able to suspend disbelief in this too. The unattached, pretty young baroness is not going to fawn over the Charisma 6 half-orc even if his player claims he is sexy and manly. The wealthy would-be artist sponsor isn't going to notice the Charisma 10 wizard whose player says "no, she's really beautiful", instead sitting down with the bard to discuss deals. And so on.
Precisely. And thus: Charisma does not deal with appearance. Appearance is more or less completely irrelevant.
