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What do most people with reach weapons do if the monster survives your opportunity attack and gets inside your reach to attack you?
Do you all walk around with a second non-reach weapon for adjacent melee, and take the time to switch weapons as necessary? I know you can drop the reach weapon as a free action, and draw the secondary weapon as a move action, but then switching back in the middle of combat can get inconvenient.
Or do you just take a 5 foot step backward and smack them with the reach weapon? In a big enough area, that seems like a plan, but I'd worry about constantly being pushed back tactically that way.
A player in the campaign I gm is an armor master fighter with a polearm and improved unarmed strike. He also has lunge and the entire step up line of feats. If something is actually crazy enough to get close to him, he just punches it in the face.
Instead of making AoO trip them.
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5 foot step?
Actually, I've also used the Ftr: Polearm Master Archetype. At 3rd level you can take a (I think) -2 penalty to attack adjacent enemies.
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@ Tiamat's Claw,
I built one of those Step Up (10') & Lunge characters -- after about 6 or 7 levels of play I realized I had never ONCE used any of those three Feats.
I Retrained.
Spiked Armor or Spiked Guantlet.
Your choice.
The guy in my game likes to get right up on archers and casters. He really knows how to ruin someones day. The summoner hits him with haste and he charges them. They never get away.
Armor Spikes, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield. Can't go wrong with spikes.
I don't think I've ever built a martial character that did not have multiple melee weapons, even if his specialty was ranged.
Whether it was a bludgeoning weapon to back up the main slashing weapon, or a second slashing weapon that could double as ranged, or a close weapon to back up the reach weapon.
My wife has a very beloved character whose favorite weapon is a glaive, but she has as much proficiency with the longsword for just this reason.
Cestus is good alternative for spiked gauntlet.
Yeah, Lunge doesn't see much use because it only works on your turn, and the most important part of reach is threatening AoO's.
I built one of those Step Up (10') & Lunge characters -- after about 6 or 7 levels of play I realized I had never ONCE used any of those three Feats.I Retrained.
I actually think Lunge does a lot for the reach-melee guy.
Going from 10 to 15 ft reach, ensures that your non-reach enemy is unable to just take a 5 ft. step to get close to you, thus letting you have the much wanted AOO when they have to move to get close.While it can be accomplished by Enlarge Person or similar, combining the effects allow you to do it against large opponents.
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Take
This is why I can't stand 3rd party publishers. The benefit of that feat:
Benefit: When using a reach weapon you may attack adjacent foes.
Polearm master gets this:
At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
This ability replaces Bravery.
"Oh hey guys, let's write up a feat that completely negates a major advantage of an archetype."
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What do most people with reach weapons do if the monster survives your opportunity attack and gets inside your reach to attack you?
Do you all walk around with a second non-reach weapon for adjacent melee, and take the time to switch weapons as necessary? I know you can drop the reach weapon as a free action, and draw the secondary weapon as a move action, but then switching back in the middle of combat can get inconvenient.
Or do you just take a 5 foot step backward and smack them with the reach weapon? In a big enough area, that seems like a plan, but I'd worry about constantly being pushed back tactically that way.
Obviously you drop the reach weapon and hug the monster and say "It's ok. It's ok. It's ok."
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As a Half-orc with a lance, might I suggest taking the Toothy trait?
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Have you huged your Pit Fiend, today?
YES I particularly like hugging huged pit fiends :)
I think there was a similar feat in 3.5 called, "Short Haft." I believe it took a swift action to choke up on the polearm/longspear, and you could then use it against adjacent foes. It may be "too good to not take," but it makes a lot more sense to me than a number of other feats of which I could think.
Yeah, Lunge doesn't see much use because it only works on your turn, and the most important part of reach is threatening AoO's. More often than not it's just an AC penalty without any real compensation (I suppose if someone somehow managed to stuff whirlwind attack into a build despite the massive pile of prerequisites it could be useful...)
I built one of those Step Up (10') & Lunge characters -- after about 6 or 7 levels of play I realized I had never ONCE used any of those three Feats.I Retrained.
Human Fighter 5:
Dodge, Mobility, spring attack, combat expertise, whirlwind attack and lungeAll you have to do is retrain an earlier feat at level 4 and you can have whirlwind attack then, level 5 gets you lunge, level 6 will get you power attack.
Don't forget the 13 Int you have to swallow to take combat expertise :P (That and having to go through the first 5 levels without Power Attack... unless PA was the feat you retrained, which would be really awkward, have it levels 1-3, lose it for levels 4 and 5, then get it again.)
I'm fond of the following stat line for fighters:
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 8You are solid with those stats. Granted not as overwhelming at lower levels, but solid, at higher levels yeah you have less overkill but that's the thing about overkill -- it's more than needed.
Retraining PA is a little awkward I agree, but possible. It's more something to use against Melee PCs I think.
silverhair2008 wrote:
As a Half-orc with a lance, might I suggest taking the Toothy trait?
This. I am a half-orc. Get close to me and experience 1d4+16, foo!
My damage is 1d4+24.
Yeah, Lunge doesn't see much use because it only works on your turn, and the most important part of reach is threatening AoO's.
I built one of those Step Up (10') & Lunge characters -- after about 6 or 7 levels of play I realized I had never ONCE used any of those three Feats.I Retrained.
I actually think Lunge does a lot for the reach-melee guy.
Going from 10 to 15 ft reach, ensures that your non-reach enemy is unable to just take a 5 ft. step to get close to you, thus letting you have the much wanted AOO when they have to move to get close.
While it can be accomplished by Enlarge Person or similar, combining the effects allow you to do it against large opponents.
Lunge does not function when its not your turn so you don't threaten 15ft
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What do most people with reach weapons do if the monster survives your opportunity attack and gets inside your reach to attack you?
I only play character with reach weapons if I'm allowed to use Short Haft from Player's Handbook 2. Being able to use a Swift Action to attack adjacent foes is the only way to go.
Anything with spike in it is really the safe way to go, natural weapons would be ok but toothy doesn't get iterative attacks, spiked gauntlet or armour spikes otoh do.
If the monster has a full-attack, I take the AOO and move to where it can't 5 footstep and full-attack me, then I brace against its pending charge.
That way it only gets 2 bites instead of claw/claw/bite. And I have the opportunity to do double damage if it charges.
I do like that cestus idea though, and I can easily add that attack in before I move.
TakeThis is why I can't stand 3rd party publishers. The benefit of that feat:
Benefit: When using a reach weapon you may attack adjacent foes.
Polearm master gets this:
At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
This ability replaces Bravery.
"Oh hey guys, let's write up a feat that completely negates a major advantage of an archetype."
This is why I can't stand primary publishers who are TERRIFIED of creating powerful options.
"Oh hey guys, lets write up an archtype that suffers a penalty for using an ability iconic to the archtype until level 18."
If you have an issue with it just give Polearm Masters Near and Far as a bonus feat at second level. Boom, done.
Come on, there is a difference between "powerful options" and the absolute best option. Eliminate the penalties of reach weapons and they are suddenly far beyond any other two handed weapon.
1) Spiked gauntlet
2) Spiked armor
3) Improved unarmed strike
4) 5 foot step back and whack them anyway.
5) Natural attacks: Toothy half orc or sorcerer with claws/bite.
He's assuming (a rather weak assumption, considering how the vast majority of melee oriented enemies CR 5 and above have reach) that the target enemy has no reach, so they are using a move action to move from 15 feet away to 10 feet away to 5 feet away, and provoking on the second step.
Is it a weak assumption, that you regularly meet enemies, that have a shorter reach than you?
If that is the case, how do you ever get use out of your reach?Being enlarged helps alot in the reach department, but no matter what your reach is, the extra 5 ft is going to give you an advantage against certain foes.
Even in the case that the enemy might have the same reach, lunge will give you that extra square, which can make the difference between being hit by a full attack and a single attack (granted it isn't every time, but every bit adds up).
All this is adds to the ability of lunge to allow you to avoid the AOO when getting close to an enemy who has larger reach than you.
I can't argue against the fact that some people haven't seen use for it. But for me, it gets used regularly (maybe not every combat, but more often than several other feats).
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I like using reach weapons -- BUT, I'm used to DMing and playing in groups of lots of PCs. When there's already 4 tanks that want the front line, being the guy with reach is good.
And if he's only one size bigger than I, I don't have to walk into his square provoking like the other PCs do.
(Plus, if I'm building a PC I like to multiclass which ain't always so optimized -- at least compared to the 3 or 4 tanks on the front line. I'll stand back 5'.)
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I'm fond of the following stat line for fighters:
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 8
OMG the useless fourteen man!
I kid, i kid. Wish i had more players like you on my table man. What i usually see is:20,13,15,07,11,07 Race: human.
It always amaze me how golarion taverns are full of ugly people who think they are Einsten.
To OP: I second cestus. It has a nice crit range.
That's not the point. You hit the enemy who is 15' away. On his turn, if he takes a 5' step towards you, he is still 10' away, and likely cannot hit you. If he takes a move action to get within 5' of you, you get an opportunity attack against him.
Lunge does not function when its not your turn so you don't threaten 15ft
which works... once ;)
to get into that perfect 15ft range you no doubt took a move action dropping you to one attack,
he then provokes to get you and attack giving you a second attack
you then 5ft away for your full attack
and he 5ft back in for his full attack
for your trouble your getting 1 extra attack , nice but ... meh, unless you plan on taking combat reflexes as well and the combo starts becoming feat expensive
Stand Still + Pin Down
or
Stand Still + Thicket of Blades (3.5 crusader ability)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I like using reach weapons -- BUT, I'm used to DMing and playing in groups of lots of PCs. When there's already 4 tanks that want the front line, being the guy with reach is good.
And if he's only one size bigger than I, I don't have to walk into his square provoking like the other PCs do.
(Plus, if I'm building a PC I like to multiclass which ain't always so optimized -- at least compared to the 3 or 4 tanks on the front line. I'll stand back 5'.)
Heh, Learned that Saturday in first steps. We had two Paladins and a half-orc barbarian. My Magus just stayed back and acid splashed things.
Stand Still + Pin Down
or
Stand Still + Thicket of Blades (3.5 crusader ability)
Stand Still doesn't work well with reach weapons. The feat only activates when a foe provokes an AoO moving through your adjacent squares, not all squares you threaten.