All Tangled up

[ProfPotts]

Yeah - the Combat Maneuver + weapon rules are in a bit of a flux state with the designers right now, it seems. Being allowed to use a combat maneuver at reach was always a big draw for the polearms with the trip quality, after all.

At least the net Feats still have the drag, reposition, and (eventually) trip you can inflict on an entangled foe if you just happen to be holding the trailing rope. That means you can (once the guy is entangled) inflict those combat maneuvers at range with a net and the Feats, which you otherwise can't do, so there's still some benefit. There's no stated length of the trailing rope - so one assumes it's just a rope, and can be any length ('how long is a piece of string') - so you could entangle, retreat, and combat maneuver from a position of relative safety.

[spalding]

Krome wrote:

ProfPotts wrote:

@Krome: the description of a net as a one-handed thrown weapon is in the Two-Weapon Fighting section of the core rule book (page 202) - so it's well hidden, but it is there, and has been for a long time.

damn rules :)

too many rules. The game suffers from rule bloat. :)

I miss 1st edition AD&D. :)

Well in defense of the poor designers of the later feats, that is an easy one to miss :) No one's perfect.

I have my 1st edition AD&D here... lol I may have to take our group back to REAL ROLEplaying and not RULEplaying. In the day, there was a game called Rolemaster, that we called Rulemaster for the extensive rules. 3.x system makes Rulemaster seem simple at times :) lol

You know I can sympathize with the designers some on it... but if you are going to make feats for a specific weapon you really should know how the weapon is used in the game first and foremost. It's not like a search of the term "net" on the weapons section won't return the text in question either.

If the feats get clarified that they do allow you to use combat Maneuvers on enemies you have entangled with the net then I would be most satisfied personally, as I think that was what was intended from the start.

[ProfPotts]

If incorporating the latest Paizo blog stuff on weapons + combat maneuvers (where all weapons can be used, including applicable bonuses, for disarm, sunder, and trip maneuvers) I'd at least make the Net Maneuvering Feat add the trip special quality to the net (instead of just allowing it to make trip attacks) - which would allow all bonuses to be used for drag and reposition maneuvers as well (even when the target isn't entangled in this case). That would help to even up the power the Feat lost via the blog post making trip attacks universal to all weapons, IMHO.

[Krome]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Krome wrote:

ProfPotts wrote:

@Krome: the description of a net as a one-handed thrown weapon is in the Two-Weapon Fighting section of the core rule book (page 202) - so it's well hidden, but it is there, and has been for a long time.

damn rules :)

too many rules. The game suffers from rule bloat. :)

I miss 1st edition AD&D. :)

Well in defense of the poor designers of the later feats, that is an easy one to miss :) No one's perfect.

I have my 1st edition AD&D here... lol I may have to take our group back to REAL ROLEplaying and not RULEplaying. In the day, there was a game called Rolemaster, that we called Rulemaster for the extensive rules. 3.x system makes Rulemaster seem simple at times :) lol

You know I can sympathize with the designers some on it... but if you are going to make feats for a specific weapon you really should know how the weapon is used in the game first and foremost. It's not like a search of the term "net" on the weapons section won't return the text in question either.

If the feats get clarified that they do allow you to use combat Maneuvers on enemies you have entangled with the net then I would be most satisfied personally, as I think that was what was intended from the start.

In all honesty one of the things I would most like to see in the next version of the game is a complete rewrite of the text from scratch. Copy and paste from the original SRD for 3.5 is okay to save time, but there were so many instances of confusing text, of related rules being strewn over wide areas, that it sometimes is frustrating.

Personally, I'd love to see, for example, in the description for nets, ALL of the rules for nets included right there (okay subsequent book update and modifications obviously excluded). Like for nets, the one-handed range reference was in the combat section for two-handed weapons... seriously? Who the frag is going to catch that? Okay besides ProfPotts. :)

and I am still confused about maneuvers :( I have no idea at all what the designers are trying to do. 99% of the time I can "get" where they are coming from and comprehend their rule interpretation. But maneuvers has me baffled. I have no idea what the intent, reasoning, or plan is now. I like the "old" way better. It made more sense to me. And honestly, most of my groups steer clear of maneuvers whenever possible.

[spalding]

I don't see any of that I can really disagree with, and I caught that it was one handed already too (which is part of why I started this thread).

I do agree that a complete re-organization and possible rewriting of the rules could probably help immensely. I think have a more definitive list of 'keywords' for abilities and the like would be a good idea too.

[ProfPotts]

Abraham spalding wrote:

... I think have a more definitive list of 'keywords' for abilities and the like would be a good idea too.

Yes, this! A thousand times this! The amount of discussion you get on the boards on trying to define stuff like 'weapon' or 'wield' or seperating 'fluff' text from 'rules' text that could be eliminated just by having such a definitive, and well defined, list would be so worth while! Also have some consistent method of formatting which highlights such keywords - such as keywords (indicating a rules-defined use of, say, the word 'weapon') always being in italics or something.

IMHO, natch... ;)

[blackbloodtroll]

Necromancy! Any update on how this line of feats works?

[Christopher Buckley]

I just read this entire thread, and I'm disappointed to find not a single comment by one of the game designers.

I'm starting in a new campaign this coming weekend, and I'd wanted to make a net and trident fighter. These feats are very cool and just need a little clarification on a few points. ProfPotts in particular made almost everything crystal clear to me, and his interpretations mostly match my own.

The question that still plaques me is why the Net & Trident feat needs to exist (besides the secondary +2 benefit). I mean, why do you need a feat to let you dual wield with a weapon that was made into a melee weapon by a prerequisite feat? And even if you use the net as a ranged weapon instead, how is this not already covered by TWF rules? Nothing in the rules say you can't combine melee and ranged attacks within the same full attack (assuming you have Quick Draw).

[blackbloodtroll]

You need to hit the FAQ button on the top right to get developer response. The more people hit it, the more likely to get a response.

[CanisDirus]

I don't suppose anyone's heard anything on this in regards to developer involvement / clarification?

I really like Krome's explanation, but I'm still seeing a few ambiguities in the feat chain, and even looking over it with two fellow GM friends of mine, we're still a little dizzy trying to figure this out.

So I guess the whole of my post is:

1 - Bump
2 - Have people clicked the FAQ flag on the OP?

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, a friend of mine tried to play a halfling slaver with these feats in an evil campaign once. The whole thing fell apart pretty quickly to confusion. *FAQ'd*

[CanisDirus]

Hm...

I was giving this some thought tonight as I was working to try out a build that involves a net (might reveal it later on if I can get it to line up the way I want), and I may have had a small epiphany about Net Maneuvering and Net Trickery.

(Disclaimer - my sincere apologies if someone else made these exact points elsewhere in the thread and I either misread them or missed them completely)

First - when using the net normally, a "hit" means the target is automatically entangled. That doesn't change with Net Adept, even though that feat makes it a melee reach weapon or a range weapon, both with a 10ft max-range. Note - that it's still a touch attack, since armor wouldn't actually help you being roped/netted.

Net Maneuvering says "in melee, you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them." Now that I'm thinking more carefully about this, I read that as "on a hit, you can choose to automatically trip, disarm, or entangle your target" with a melee touch attack with this feat. Disarming this way gives a +2, as per the feat, and if you have previously entangled an opponent, this feat makes clear that you can drag/reposition.

Net Trickery expands on this a little bit, now adding "dirty trick - blind" to the list from Net Maneuvering. You can also attempt a Trip maneuver without having to "re-attack" with the net, if your opponent is entangled (that may be redundant, but that's how I'm reading it). In addition, you get a +2 to drag/reposition.

These feats make *lots* more sense to me now...so much so that I'm thinking I may remove my "flag this as a FAQ".

Thoughts?

[Ravingdork]

And it's still a touch attack to do so?

[blackbloodtroll]

The bonus of the net, is that it is all touch AC. The drawback, is there is no way to damage opponent with a net.
I suppose you could use it as an improvised weapon, but none of the Net feats give you bonuses for doing so.

[CanisDirus]

That's my read on it based on the description for the Net as a weapon.

Another note that I just thought of - normally making a combat maneuver (entangle, trip, disarm) is a Standard action. Doing so with a net as a melee weapon means you can do it as one of your melee attacks (if you get multiple attacks for a Full Round Action).

[CanisDirus]

@blackbloodtroll - that's what two-weapon-fighting / net-and-trident are there for - toss your net with attack #1, entangle or trip 'em so their AC is down, follow-up stab with something :)

[blackbloodtroll]

Weird thought. A Maneuver Master monk, with a level in cleric, who's deity's favored weapon is a net, and has the Crusader's Flurry feat.
Throw in Guided hand to do it all with wisdom.
I wonder what happens if you channel smite with a net?

[CanisDirus]

That would be *interesting*!

Also for consideration (I can't claim this is my original idea - but I can't remember where I saw it...) a Magus with a Net (10ft reach one-handed melee weapon) with spellstrike and (shocking grasp / insert spell you could "route" through the net here).

[CanisDirus]

Here's another interesting thought, and one that might actually require a FAQ...

"Net and Trident" states: "You can treat a net as a one-handed ranged weapon, allowing you to wield a light or one-handed melee weapon and still make ranged attacks with your net."

Does this mean that you can use your net + offhand weapon without taking an AoO for using a ranged weapon if you're being threatened by your target?

There aren't many other 1-hand reach weapons in play, so I'm assuming that this feat is meant to be able to allow you to throw your net and then stab in the same round / full round action...

[Quantum Steve]

CanisDirus wrote:

Net Maneuvering says "in melee, you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them." Now that I'm thinking more carefully about this, I read that as "on a hit, you can choose to automatically trip, disarm, or entangle your target" with a melee touch attack with this feat. Disarming this way gives a +2, as per the feat, and if you have previously entangled an opponent, this feat makes clear that you can drag/reposition.

You still have to make a Combat Maneuver Check, this feat doesn't change how Maneuvers work.

"In melee, you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them."

When this feat was written, only weapons with the trip quality could be used in a trip attempt. This feat let you make trip attempts with a net. I think the intent was to give the net the trip and disarm qualities., this is just how it came out.

[CanisDirus]

Quantum Steve wrote:

You still have to make a Combat Maneuver Check, this feat doesn't change how Maneuvers work.

"In melee, you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them."

When this feat was written, only weapons with the trip quality could be used in a trip attempt. This feat let you make trip attempts with a net. I think the intent was to give the net the trip and disarm qualities., this is just how it came out.

Notice the RAW - "you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them." It says nothing about using a net to make a trip or disarm combat maneuver. The feat allows you to trip/disarm with a "hit" with a net in melee, instead of just entangling with a "hit".

These feats were in Ultimate Combat - was there a rules change to anything regarding combat after this feat came out?