The values provided in the spells are the maximum the spell can grant - it's limited by the value for the creature. The rule for this is buried in the description of the polymorph subschool of transmutation:
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead.
Here is a related question from a buried thread that never got answered.
As for an official ruling and a ruling that actually applies to Pathfinder Society, the spell functions exactly as written. That means for BS1, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal found in the Bestiary of the matching appropriate size. Then, if that animal has any of the abilities listed in the spell, you gain those as well. The polymorph subschool then dictates what you gain re: attacks.
Ok, I have a follow-up question on the official ruling.
On page 84 of the Beastiary it has and EXAMPLE of of a 4th level advancement deinonychus which is large. Does that mean I can use BS2 to turn into a large deinonychus BUT I cannot use BS3 to turn into a huge one, since there is no huge example?Or does it mean I can only turn into a medium deinonychus with BS1? I am actually asking because of wild shape for my druid, not for the arcane spell.
I read your answer to mean that I can use BS2, since there is an example in the book and is therefor found in the Beastiary. Can you clarify if I am right or why I am wrong? Thanks!
Here is a related question from a buried thread that never got answered.
As for an official ruling and a ruling that actually applies to Pathfinder Society, the spell functions exactly as written. That means for BS1, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal found in the Bestiary of the matching appropriate size. Then, if that animal has any of the abilities listed in the spell, you gain those as well. The polymorph subschool then dictates what you gain re: attacks.
Ok, I have a follow-up question on the official ruling.
On page 84 of the Beastiary it has and EXAMPLE of of a 4th level advancement deinonychus which is large. Does that mean I can use BS2 to turn into a large deinonychus BUT I cannot use BS3 to turn into a huge one, since there is no huge example?Or does it mean I can only turn into a medium deinonychus with BS1? I am actually asking because of wild shape for my druid, not for the arcane spell.
I read your answer to mean that I can use BS2, since there is an example in the book and is therefor found in the Beastiary. Can you clarify if I am right or why I am wrong? Thanks!
Also from the polymorph subschool rules:
Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
So it doesn't matter whether or not there's a fully statted out example in the Bestiary. If it has a template or is hit-die advanced, you can't use it.
Ok, I have a follow-up question on the official ruling.
On page 84 of the Beastiary it has and EXAMPLE of of a 4th level advancement deinonychus which is large.
The 4th-level advancement on page 84 isn't for the Deinonychus, it's for Elasmosaurus Companions. Those statistics are only for animal companions, not for regular creatures/monsters, and only exist because animal companions follow their own special rules.
Above the Companion-statistics, the same page mentions that you can create a megaraptor by advancing a Deinonychus either by adding HD or the Advanced or Giant templates. None of those options are available when wild-shaping.
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Also from the polymorph subschool rules:
Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.So it doesn't matter whether or not there's a fully statted out example in the Bestiary. If it has a template or is hit-die advanced, you can't use it.
I thought beast shape was intentionally created to be flexible.
so if you wanted to use beast shape 3 to turn into a huge tiger, you could.
Also from the polymorph subschool rules:
Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.So it doesn't matter whether or not there's a fully statted out example in the Bestiary. If it has a template or is hit-die advanced, you can't use it.I thought beast shape was intentionally created to be flexible.
so if you wanted to use beast shape 3 to turn into a huge tiger, you could.
I can't speak to the intent (other than to standardize shapechanging), but per RAW, that's explicitly not allowed. It could be a case of RAW not matching the RAI, or it could be that the intent was to specifically limit how much players could bend it.
ANd that little bit of raw is how the _____ shaman druids gets screwed over, because they can't take advantage of the wildshape becaue there isn't a huge version of their totem animal.
ANd that little bit of raw is how the _____ shaman druids gets screwed over, because they can't take advantage of the wildshape becaue there isn't a huge version of their totem animal.
Unless you play a Saurian Shaman. There are lots of reptiles and dinosaurs that are Huge. Plus Summons as a standard action AND the War domain...hello any combat feat you qualify for as a huge monster (vicious strike)!
I just made a 5th level half orc Saurian Shaman with razor tusk. He also has step up, spell focus (conjuration), and augment summoning as his feats. His summons are pretty mean and he can dish out damage (bite and two claws at full BaB). Next level he can shapechange to huge!
I would love to give him Planar Wild Shape, but that doesn't fit in with my character concept of a neanderthal half-orc that froze several thousand years ago that the party cleric found and healed.
He is not too bright and knows nothing about planes. I am torn at 7 between starlight summons, following step, or toughness.
Anyway, as a DM I would rule the other shamans CAN shapchange into their totem with the "giant template" to increase size, but not HD.
Thanks for the rules clarification everyone. Now I know when I am using a house rule (which will be targeted at Shamans that have no huge animal) and what the rules actually are.
I don't know how I missed that in the polymorph sub-school description!
EDIT:
And don't forget that if the beast you shape change into has a speed better then 60, you get it. You also can begin to get burrow 30 feet, blindsense 30 feet, constrict, ferocity, jet, poison, rake, trample, and web as the new abilities....and small and medium magical beasts.
Having rake on top of pounce at 6th level, even as only a large animal, is AWESOME!
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