One of our local players has an 8th-level lion shaman druid with a big cat as his companion. He indicated that his cat can pounce and rake on a charge, then use grab with every attack that hits. Is that the rules' intent? A pouncing charge followed by up to five grab attempts pretty much guarantees most foes end up wrestling a lion.
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One of our local players has an 8th-level lion shaman druid with a big cat as his companion. He indicated that his cat can pounce and rake on a charge, then use grab with every attack that hits. Is that the rules' intent? A pouncing charge followed by up to five grab attempts pretty much guarantees most foes end up wrestling a lion.
it is pretty difficult to discuss the intent of the rules, though RAW is quite clear in my opinion. The Grab ability is not tied to any specific attack and therefore counts on all successful attacks. Rake is automatic when pouncing and is described as to claw attacks. As far as RAW goes, pounce counts for 5 grab attempts, if the attacks succeed.
One of our local players has an 8th-level lion shaman druid with a big cat as his companion. He indicated that his cat can pounce and rake on a charge, then use grab with every attack that hits. Is that the rules' intent? A pouncing charge followed by up to five grab attempts pretty much guarantees most foes end up wrestling a lion.
The cat can charge and get five grapple attempts, but if it gets the grapple on the first attempt then it can't make the other attacks since it also now has the grapple condition IIRC. When I played a druid I always waited until the last attack to go for the grapple.
The cat can not use rake on the initial grapple though. It only use the rake on the round after the initial grapple.
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Note that is says it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
According to the online reference document the Grab is attached to the Bite attack... (Link)
Melee bite +7 (1d8+5 plus grab), 2 claws +7 (1d4+5)
The Rake only happens if a pair of claw attacks successfully hit, if all 4 hit(during a Pounce), then you get 2 Rake attacks.
According to the online reference document the Grab is attached to the Bite attack... (Link)
The Rake only happens if a pair of claw attacks successfully hit, if all 4 hit(during a Pounce), then you get 2 Rake attacks.
Attached to the bite for a lion. The big cat companion also lists tigers, which get grab attempts on both bite and claws.
Edit: And the OP said lion shaman. So yeah, the big cat companion in this case should be closer to a lion, with the grab only on a bite. A normal druid with the big cat companion could be either way.
Note that is says it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
But the pounce ability says the exact opposite:
Pounce (Ex)When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Specific generally trumps general. The general rules of rake apply, and rake can't be used unless you were grappling at the beginning of your turn. But if you have pounce, there is an exception - you can pounce and rake in the same turn. You don't have to be grappling to rake.
Attached to the bite for a lion. The big cat companion also lists tigers, which get grab attempts on both bite and claws.
Edit: And the OP said lion shaman. So yeah, the big cat companion in this case should be closer to a lion, with the grab only on a bite. A normal druid with the big cat companion could be either way.
Yup, at which point this ruling falls under "GM Interpretation", due to conflicting "Big Cat" stat blocks. Typically I'd say give the player the better of the two, but the specification of "Lion" Shaman pretty much sums it up.
Also, I guess Rake works differently than I thought, I thought it was similar to slam and grapple... Wraithstrike posted the RAW, sorry about that.
But the pounce ability says the exact opposite:
Pounce (Ex)When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Specific generally trumps general. The general rules of rake apply, and rake can't be used unless you were grappling at the beginning of your turn. But if you have pounce, there is an exception - you can pounce and rake in the same turn. You don't have to be grappling to rake.
I agree. I just never noticed it before. My players are in so much trouble now. :)
Animals and animal companion stats are completely unrelated.
Not when you or your GM needs to determine how something is suppose to function mechanically. Otherwise... any attack would cause a grab, prompting the OPs question.
"Dude, How does your lion even fire a ballista, let alone attempt a grab attack from 100 ft. away with one?!"
My phrasing muddied the waters a bit. The issue I wanted to ask about was the problem of the companion getting five grapple attempts. mentioning the lion was just confusing, as companion animals don't necessarily match their counterparts' abilities 100%.
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Tiger
This powerful feline predator moves with a deadly grace, its reddish-orange fur slashed with black stripes.
Tiger CR 4
XP 1,200
N Large animal
Init +6; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, –1 size)
hp 45 (6d8+18)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +10 (1d8+6 plus grab), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Lion
This great cat's muscles flex visibly under its skin as it bares its fangs and shakes its thick mane of hair.
Lion CR 3
XP 800
N Large Animal
Init +7; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +9
Defense
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, +3 natural, –1 size)
hp 32 (5d8+10)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +2
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +7 (1d8+5 plus grab), 2 claws +7 (1d4+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +7, 1d4+5)
Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger)
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Attacks rake (1d4); Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4; Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6) .
by looking at the above info, it seems the AC lion gets o grab w/bite and claws, where normal lion doesnt. interesting