Rebalancing the Summoner


Homebrew and House Rules

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Anything can be used for combat, does not mean it must be used for combat.

Shadow Lodge

That is true, but there are very few evolutions that can't contribute in combat.

So far, I think it's only the Extra Head evolution, and only if you don't take Bite.

Scarab Sages

Spacelard wrote:
Thalin wrote:

No, with Summon Eidilon, the 2nd level spell, it specifically works. Augment summon affects all spells / abilities with the word summon.

You are correct on the base Eidilon ability of the class though.

Have you a reference for that please?

EDIT: "Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell."

Normally the summoned eidolon isn't effected by Augment Summons so I read that as it still isn't effected by it using this spell.

And normally the eidolon is not summoned via a spell nor treated as a summoned creature. Now, both conditions apply.

It was the means by which the eidolon was called that disqualified it from the Augment Summon feat, not the fact that it was an Eidolon. Those means have altered to fall squarly within Augment Summon's parameters.)


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
skilled, fly, climb, gills, mount, tremirsense, blindsense, burrow, frightful presense, web, blindsight, basic magic, lowlight vision, unnatural aura, keen scent, minor magic, undead appearance, major magic, see in darkness, dimension door, incorporeal form, lifesense, no breath, ultimate magic.
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Climb,gills,mount,pull,push,scent,skilled,swim,tail,Ability Increase,flight,immunity,Tremorsense ,blindsense, burrow, blindsight, fasting, and large

so 19

** spoiler omitted **

The only one I couldn't find was 'fasting'. If Seeker meant Fast Healing, well...

I completely agree with you and that is why these are not BAD options, maybe non-combat is the wrong word. What i mean is all the 'crazy' eidolon builds take only the evolutions that are pure offense and pure defense. The utility options can clearly still be used in combat, but they are not pure damage, or pure damage prevention.

This is the problem when a class or anything is completely modular. Every class gives at least some 'automatic' abilities. And all of them have a mix of direct offense/defense and utility/indirect abilities along with their custumizable options.

So a fighter has weapon training/armor training (pure offense/defense) and bravery (indirect) and its bonus feats (customizable).

Barbarian has rage (pure offense) uncanny dodge fast movement etc(utility/indirect options) and rage powers (customizable).

Even a druids animal companion get some of their 'power' tied up in direct and indirect options (big cat gets pounce and rake as direct but also gets scent and lowlight vision), while the druid definately has a mix as well.

The eidolon, being completely customizable isn't unbalanced because of any specific option or set of options, but because you can simply take ALL options to accomplish either offense or defense with no real restrictions on how you go about it. If you built your eidolon like every other class in the game, then you would take some of the options i mentioned above like keen scent or tremorsense or minor magic, and thus the eidolon wouldn't overwhelm things with damage and/or be extremely difficult to hurt because some of you're resources are diverted to other things.

Dark Archive

I actually agree completely with Kol. Eidilon is a little like the race book being put in the hands of the players. Most players won't takes the flavorful options, like scent (or +2 to a skill in the race book); they just maximize offensive / defensive capabilities. To balance this out the creators should have made 3 pools of points (offensive, defensive, utility) and allowed players to spend only in that category. Worse, nobody wants situational evolutions because of the flexibility offered by Evolution Surge spells.

Though large still needs to be given the righteous might nerf; currently it is worth about 13 points (reach, Strength *4, Con, improved damage (all attacks), -2 Dex without the AC loss). Again, at +4 Str +2 Con it's still a bargain.


Thalin wrote:

I actually agree completely with Kol. Eidilon is a little like the race book being put in the hands of the players. Most players won't takes the flavorful options, like scent (or +2 to a skill in the race book); they just maximize offensive / defensive capabilities. To balance this out the creators should have made 3 pools of points (offensive, defensive, utility) and allowed players to spend only in that category. Worse, nobody wants situational evolutions because of the flexibility offered by Evolution Surge spells.

Though large still needs to be given the righteous might nerf; currently it is worth about 13 points (reach, Strength *4, Con, improved damage (all attacks), -2 Dex without the AC loss). Again, at +4 Str +2 Con it's still a bargain.

I think if you made the separation of the evolution pool or put a 'smash things' cap on evolution points, it wouldnt matter if the size evolutions were reduced or not, their cost would mean a heavy investment from the more limited smash things pool of points (thuse reducing things like the number of attacks or energy bonuses etc). So far no one in my group has wanted to play a summoner, but if they did I would simply add that at least 1/3 of the evolution points didnt directly add to attack routines or defensive abilities, and call it done.


Thalin wrote:

Change suggestions:

*when going from 3.0 to 3.5, Righteous Might went from granting +8 Str and +4 Con to +4 Str and +2 Con. It is still considered a great spell. Do the same to "Large" evolution. Everyone would still take it.

*Lower number of legal attacks by 1, effective @ level 1. 2 attacks is fine @ 1.

I think just these simple two would be 95% of the fix right there.

An additional option would be to limit (and possibly prohibit) magic items worn by an Eidilon.

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