Hello, Everybody.
I invite anybody to share there opinions on the topics addressed below.
Thank you in advance for your civil and insightful commentary. =P
Does allowing a Synthesist to take 1 combat feat per four or possibly three summoner levels that eidolon qualifies for, that is effective only when using Fused Eidolon appear to be a balanced house-rule?
A Synthesist using the eidolon-suit the eidolon gains no feats or skills. The skills one I can see being extremely overpowered and thus removed. But the having no feats seems harsh as the summoner must burn feat slots AND qualify for feats to perform in combat and in most good campaigns ([personal bias) combat is only 40% of the focus, unless you're fighting a war. Since summoning an Eidolon takes a full minute and covers you in obvious magical umbra of awesome you won't walk around in unless your in McFunky McMage town or know in advance its time to crush heads, its harsh to penalize all of your other activities. With the feats limited to combat feats only it prevents in theory broken combo's and enhances only combat power.
I'm also considering for a replacing for the summon monster chain class ability with 2 other class abilities instead of allowing the Synthesist extra feats.
Fused Eidolon Attunement: As you grow in experience your mind and body adapt to channeling the planar energies need to bring forth your Fused Eidolon more swiftly. At 3rd level you gain the ability to summon your Fused Eidolon as a full round action that does not provoke AoO. This ability improves every 3 levels to a standard action at 6 level and a move action at 9 level.
Level 11 Class Ability
Fusion Mastery: You constant exposure to planar energies has increased your efficiency in manipulating them. While using the Fused Eidolon, class ability you gain the ability to cast summon monster with your extra outflow of summoning energies.
You are able to summon one creature at a time with summon monster while using your Fused Eidolon class ability, up to the highest level of summon monster you are capable of casting as a move action. You may summon this creature at lower level of summon monster if you so choose, as well, but the extra outflow is only capable of summoning 1 creature of any level. The duration of your summons while Fused Eidolon is active is only 1 minute per 4 summoner levels and you may not use gate while using Fused Eidolon as normal and further Summon monster cannot remain active if you use the Split Form or Twin Ediolon ability as the increased focus needed instantly cancels the active summon monster.
While Fused Eidolon is inactive Summon Monster acts as written in the Advanced Players guide, but activating Fused Eidolon cancel all active Summon Monsters as it disrupts the flow of energies.
Your Summon Monster level improves at each level as written in the Advanced Players guide.
Thoughts, Internet people?
I've fallen in love with the Synthesist concept after stumbling on it. While searching for info about Dimensional feat chain.
Since then,I have spent much time thinking about these options and tweaks for a Synthesist. I am a bit bias with my own ideas as many people are. But if you do not agree please provide an: "And this is why this is dumb" Or even an "Maybe think of this way instead"
I will most likely will attempt to play one in my next campaign.
For the next one I GM, I'm already drafting up a campigan with evil Synthesist group giving up there bodies and souls to outsiders that are intent on destroying linear time......
One more try for attention. Then we fade away to dust....
Well... Altogether, I like it.
Especially that you give the summon monster ability an actual use by making it available while being fused.
That said, I think your "quickening" of Summon Monster and Fused Eidolon attunement is a bit too much, since not even the Master Summoner is capable of summoning monsters as a move action.
I'd even be content with being able to only summon one monster of the second highest SM SLA you'd normally have, even with the reduced duration you proposed (well... when will you ever need summoned creatures for more than 2 minutes?).
And... you already have the ability to call your Eidolon to you faster if you don't have time for your 1 minute ritual, by means of the Summon Eidolon spell - but okay, getting it quicker than full round takes a metamagic rod or a 6th level slot, so I can understand it, but I'd atleast spread out the reduction of the Fused Eidolon activation action.
Depending on wether summoning your Eidolon is treated as a spell-like (does normally provoke AoO) or a supernatural abilty (does not provoke), I'd say something like: 4th level full-round action, 8th level standard, 12th level standard without AoO, 16th move
or 5th full-round action, 10th standard, 15th move.
Since this is your houserule thread, I got to ask: would you like to talk about how you'd rule some of the questions that are still unanswered in the synthesist discussion thread?
I'm game for debate anything related to Synthesist. I haven't played one yet but I'm intrigued.
Below I will address your concern in no particular order and in a mostly rambling manner.
The main problem with using Summon Eidolon, is it acts as a summoned creature and is blocked by "protection from" spells and of course it has a fairly short duration. The Synthesist's main thing is Fusing so I figure I want to get that out in combat more easily.
Fused Eidolon attunement aims to give the Synthesist the same benefit a druid does with their shape-shifting not provoking AoO and not having to wait 10 rounds to transform in combat as well as having the form last for virtually forever. Hour per level. Getting the transformation as a move action might be a little too much. How about this instead:
Fused Eidolon Attunement: As you grow in experience your mind and body adapt to channeling the planar energies need to bring forth your Fused Eidolon more swiftly. At 3rd level you gain the ability to summon your Fused Eidolon as a full round action. This swift inrush of energies cause you to lower your guard for a moment provoking attack from any threatening enemies.
Improved Fused Eidolon Attunement: At 6th level your skill in channeling planar energies improves allowing you to bring forth your Fused Eidolon as a Full round action that does not provoke or standard action that does as you open yourself to your Eidolon more swiftly.
Greater Fused Eidolon Attunement. At 11th level you have mastered the channeling of energies needed to bring forth your Eidolon. You can bring forth your Fused Eidolon as a standard action that does not provoke.
Currently, Summoner's get a special perk each level of some type.
With my changes that creates gaps in that. So perhaps Fusion Mastery should be altered a bit and renamed.
Fusion Efficiency: At 5th level your constant exposure to planar energies has increased your efficiency in manipulating them. While using the Fused Eidolon, class ability you gain the ability to cast summon monster with your extra outflow of summoning energies.
You are able to summon one creature at a time with summon monster while using your Fused Eidolon class ability, up to the highest level of summon monster you are capable of casting as a Full round action. You may summon this creature at lower level of summon monster if you so choose, as well, but the extra outflow is only capable of summoning 1 creature of any level. The duration of your summons while Fused Eidolon is active is only 3 rounds per 4 summoner levels and you may not use gate while using Fused Eidolon as normal and further Summon monster cannot remain active if you use the Split Form or Twin Ediolon ability as the increased focus needed instantly cancels the active summon monster. This ability improves at 7th level to an standard action and to a move action at 9th.
While Fused Eidolon is inactive Summon Monster acts as written in the Advanced Players guide, but activating Fused Eidolon cancel all active Summon Monsters as it disrupts the flow of energies.
Your Summon Monster level improves at each level as written in the Advanced Players guide.
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As for Summoning your Eidolon I believe it is a spell-like ability much like your summon monster ability is as a summoner.
Thanks for the opinion.
Hmm... Yeah, I like the changed version more.
Another thought I had, how about adding a possibility to have your Eidolon stay with you when you're asleep?
I know, there is the resilient Eidolon feat, but that's only one round/level.
Flavorwise, I'd like if you'd be able to have the Eidolon stay if you go to sleep naturally and by yourself.
Some character ideas I have for a synthesist wouldn't really fit sleeping alone, without their hull.
Of course the Eidolon would be in a dormant state, as it would not be balanced to gain an ever-vigilant watch dog.
Regarding the questions, well... pick any out of the "one synthesist thread to rule them all", if you like.
I could also start throwing some of them at you, if you prefer that approach. ^^
PS: I strongly recommend introducing a feat similar to "Natural Spell", that enables a synthesist to cast while fused without requiring his Eidolon to have hands.
I'll have to set aside some time to go thru that thread entirely.
But feel free to throw anyone of the topics addressed at me and I'll chop it up how I feel about it.
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I'm playing a level 12 synthesist right now.
The class is kindof overpowered...
1. I can easily match a thf fighter in DPR, and had to go out of my way to not surpass it.
2. This is with an AC of 32, and DR 10. And Fly.
3. I also have all those bonus HPs.
Just saying. I think the Synthesist needs some reexamining, and some nerfing in terms of numbers.
I can do some cool stuff, but I shouldnt be outclassing all the melee classes.
I suck at combat maneuvers because I lack the feats. Thats about the only downside I have.
If I need skills I'll take the Skilled Trait to make up for my low skillpoints.
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Synthesist is extraordinarily overpowered. Making the summoner qualify for feats stops him from dumping all of his physical stats to 7 (well, it doesn't, but it at least makes that cost something... well not really). You have a 70 point build character with amazing buff spells, exceptiOnal damage, and with 1 spell (evolution surge) that lets them adapt to any environment / battle. Don't give them help.
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I'd actually suggest taking a look at what melee characters can do at given levels, and comparing, and maybe using it to tone down the synthesist.
Look at what a melee character built for DPR can do. Look at what a Melee Character built for AC/DR can do. (and look at how much they have left over for other stuff.)
Then build comparable synthesists, and see how much extra you have left over. Houserule to put them in comparable ranges.
It will involve nerfing base AC to start, and maybe nerfing DPR in some way or another. Perhaps by increasing the cost of attacks. who knows.
You want a summoner that needs a buff, look at the broodmaster. Cool Idea, seriously underpowered.
Bear with my rambling a moment please. My thoughts don't alway flow together in a clear order.
The heart of most complaint I hear and read most about Synthesist is the AC is too high, but I'm unsure if a knee-jerk "nerf it" is required.
But as I understand it (and I may be wrong)the dmg and def of synthesist is the dmg and def of what a regular Eidolon could do -minus shielded meld and you have the additional of the a summoner casting and attacking separate.
The main benefit is applying enchanted items worn directly to the Synthesist without splitting between the two.
You 2 trade being able to control 2 characters 1 tough and 1 Squishy to be able to control only 1 tough character.
Instead of rolling init twice and perception twice you get once.
You also must pay a spell taxes to heal your Eidolon and to repair stat dmg as others can't do it for you (no spell effect Temp HP or Eidolon stats).
The hardship of not being able to stroll around in Eidolon suit without people staring and playing "Kill the Outsider" is really dependant on your GM.
The DPR of 2 characters (Summoner+Eidolon) on 1 character (Synthesist) is hard to balance.
Perhaps somebody good with math would like to stat up a regular Summoner versus a Synthesist at level 10 to mathify DPR? I'm horrible at it.
But if nobody volunteer's I may do it at my leisure and post here at some point. I'm currently juggling a full-time job and online classes so I can't say it will be this week. But will most likely be on my Saturday or Sunday (UTC+9:00)if I do.
The Synthesist Archtype just might points out the flaws in the Summoner class on it own if its apparent DPR is too high.
Finally as an ending note for outside of combat, regular Summoners already get access to a second character with 32 skills points at level 10 for you to place as you will. You also get to select 4 skills to be class skills and you can build a chatty and knowledgeable Eidolon who uses wands if you wish fairly easily and you can further supercharge that with the "Skilled" evo. Getting Skilled alone as a Synthesist and only while melded is much less powerful.
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Thanks for the opinions, Internet People.
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No, the biggest complaint is how easy the summoner can stat-dump.
A summoner, if smart, will have 7s in Str / Dex / Con and probably 20 Cha / 16 Wis / 14 Int. The absorbed stat points make for an absurd character.
If they could only melee, the summoner would be superior to the most min-maxed two handed fighter... Dishing out more damage (or at least "as much") thanks to considerably more attacks.
Then you throw in good HP and amazing saves; and thanks to not needing many magic items lots of items concentrated on saving throw.
The issue with the standard summoner is they need to keep their physical stats (at least Dex and con) at reasonable levels; and any smart opponent can ignore the Eidilon and squish the summoner (squish = Eidilon goes away). There is the payback of action economy (buff and attack same round), but it does nothing relative to removing the squishy factor, allowing that 20 Cha with ease, and making a power character in and out of combat.
A half-elf Synthasist, 5th level, Biped
Str: 7 (21)
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Dex: 7 (14)
Con: 7 (16)
Chr: 23 (+2 item)
(Will +2 half-elf trait, all level points to additional evolution)
HP: 21 (+36)
AC: 27 (31 after Mage Armor)
Saves: Will +12 Fort: +7 Ref: +6 (+magic items)
Evolutions: Natual armor (2), Bite, Slam (claws are on feet), Electricity, Improved Str, Improved Con, Reach (Bite) - 11 points (+2 feats +1 half elf)
Attacks: +10 (+5 Str +4 BAB +1 Amulet) damage d4/d4/d6/d8, each with d6+5 extra damage
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Additional Evolution x2
Skill of note: has maxed UMD and diplomacy, +14 on each. Can evolution surge to +22
Spells 1) Grease, Mage armor, enlarge person, whatever
2) Evolution Surge (Lesser), Haste, Invisibility
Tactics: Opening round if the threat is large enough casts haste and moves 15 feat away. Any AOOs he uses a trip attack (provokes, but only if they have reach) to slow opponents sown. Evolution surges if flight or immunity to an energy type is needed. If he becomes separated from Eidilon, casts invisiblity on self and drops summons (typically a lantern archon or d4+1 riding dogs) and waits it out.
Stat dumping like that would lead me as GM to harshly enforce encumbrance rules. It falls on the GM, to cowboy it up and stop obvious tomfoolery and that only applies in point buys rolled stats can won't have quite the same problems.
The math you have for your AC seems wrong.
10base+ 4 (eidolon suit)+ 2 nat armor (biped base)+improve nat Armor 2 + 2 dex + 2 shielded meld = 22
Not sure where you are getting the extra 4. If you want to add mage armor you go to 26 Ac and adding a shield spell gives you 2 more as it over writes the 2 shield bonus you get from shield meld with its own plus 4 bring you up to 28.
You can only take improve nat armor once per 5 levels you possess. So arguing the word meaning possess you can't get another 1 until level 6, best case or not another till level 10 worst case.
If you are right and you can stack another improved nat it will still bring you up to 30 but you have to burn 2 spells out of your 4 level 1 per day not counting bonus spells.
Also consider you can't walk around in Eidolon armor all day without some serious strange looks and it takes a full minute to summon it.
Having a negative con and dex modifier at min is just asking to roll another character after the surprise round, especially if you pissed off the GM with min/maxing.
As for spells you can cast as Synthesist. Those are the same as a regular Summoner and you can't cast and attack with an Eidolon in the same round.
However,
All that being said my focus was not stat-dumping and the evils of it.
It was DPR comparsion between a regular Summoner and Synthesist, to determine with or not the amount of DPR a Synthesist can do is comparable to regular Summoner and then perhaps compare that DPR to another hybird character such as a Magus or Druid.
I'm off to bed for now. But I shall return.
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Thank you for your valuable time.
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Additional Evolution x2
I thought Additional Evolution was a feat for Eidolons to take, not for summoners (too tired to look it up right now).
I agree with most of what you said though.
It's worth noting that someone could still shut you down when youre sleeping and squishy. The GM will work something like that into the plot once the enemy encounters you a few times, assuming an overarching BBEG plot.
I built a level 12 Biped Synthesist, and with Large Size, Claw Claw Bite Wing Wing, Electric Energy, and Improved Damage on Everything (Str Bonus says +10 in my Excel Sheet, dont think I bought improved str), I outdamaged a thfer (without feats or class abilities, but with level appropriate weapons) up to AC 34 with no DR (after which point the melee type is in the lead), and with a peak difference of +17DPR against AC20 Targets. Against Targets with DR 5, the Synthesist did better damage between the ACs 14 and 34, with a peak difference of roughly +5dpr. Against targets with DR 10, the Synergist is always behind in DPR, with a peak difference of +10 damage for the meleer against any targets you only miss on a 1.
In any case where you only get one attack, The Meleer comes out ahead, particularly aginst targets with DR.
*By Peak Difference I mean the biggest difference that occurs in the curve.
If the meleer has any Str Boosting items, or has weapon spec, weapon focus, or weapon training, they'll do better than I've illustrated here.
And thats just looking at DPR. I also had DR 10, and I believe my AC was 32. Not sure what a meleer would have there.
For the OP: The eidolon in general has numbers that are too high for AC and DPR, but if you let the character have the eidolons defenses and mobility, and the summoner's magic (even precluding the summoning class feature) you have something thats a bit better than the the non-casters in nearly every way. (You cant copy high level skills since you can only take skilled once per skill, and you gave up high level casting abilities by picking summoner).
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Improved Natural Armor is once at 1st, once at 5th and every 5 after. Specific errata, someone can link.
Encumbrance rules are fine; what is my base guy wearing? Once suited I can carry everything, and still don't carry much. I'm under light encumbrance.
I'm being cheesy, I get that; but it's well within Pathinder rules. Basically the guy is a decrepit cripple who found power through his Eidilon suit, like the original iron man (who, outside suit, was in a wheelchair).
The damage comparison would be unfair; since of course a summoner with a weapon will deal more damage, generally speaking (the Eidilon is the source of all damage in both cases). The issue, then, is the vulnerability of the unsuited Summoner (the only real weakness of the summoner) relative to the borderline invulnerability of the suited. You are trading action economy for lowered vulnerability.
AC is 12 +4 level 5 +2 Dex +4 Improved +2 Shield +1 (I did add a ring of prot) = 25. My math was off, you are correct. Still, 25 is at the level of the most dedicated armormaster, toss in Mage armor and few opponents won't need less than an 18 to hit (mooks will need nat 20).
But both Synthasist and Regular have their strengths; the regular can party-buff and the Eidilon can still attack; or use his regular ability to superior summon, then bring in the Eidon with the Summon Eidilon spell (which in turn gets +4 Str / Con from augment). The Synthasist encases the far more vulnerable base class in an invincible shield, while losing no effects. Both will generally outdo most party members at everything, and the 4 summoner party would pretty much outclass any other. I don't think you need to improve on an already insanely powerful (or at least "as powerful") archetype; in fact, I would argue for the nerf of regular/master/synthasists.
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You'll notice my DPR Comparison only uses natural weapons. If I handed him a greatsword instead of using claws, I'd have a significant damage increase across the board.
Additionally, I'm not calculating DPR the way they do it in the bestiary, I'm calculating it DPR Olympics style, where I factor in chance to hit, chance of rolling a 1, chance of a threat, chance to confirm, and crit multiplier, which gives a much more accurate view of overall performance.
The Synthesist Archtype just might points out the flaws in the Summoner class on it own if its apparent DPR is too high.
The damage comparison would be unfair; since of course a summoner with a weapon will deal more damage, generally speaking (the Eidilon is the source of all damage in both cases). The issue, then, is the vulnerability of the unsuited Summoner (the only real weakness of the summoner) relative to the borderline invulnerability of the suited. You are trading action economy for lowered vulnerability.
That being said, I'm only trying to see if being a Synthesist is a net gain or a net loss on DPR for the trading of the Action economy vs vulnerability. A Vanilla Summoner can get his own AC decent enough to survive at least a few hits and at level 14 onward to you to kill both to remove them as they can trade hp back and forth. I'm intrigued with quite a few builds where the Reg. Summoner rides his Eidolon into battle grabbing mounted combat feats. Though I'm unsure if that cause the Eidolon to lose out on its attacks and AoO's while being ridden.
Comparing a Vanilla Summoner to an Synthesist allows us to say where or not the Synthesist deserves features to ease usage of said class features to be on par with vanilla, balance of the Summoner versus other classes non-withstanding.
But I admit after reading more and more on Synthesist I think summoning monsters while the Eidolon is out is not in keeping with the Synthesist archtype. Synthesist's summon an outsider into themselves to be the frontline fighter themselves. They don't need to summon peons.
A more sane balanced Synthesist just might be found by reducing the AC the Fused Eidolon provides by half and increasing the speed you summon it at as you aren't fully summoning it to this plane.
If you wish to be extra tanky you should have to spend points and/or spell slots (evolution surge) to do so, it shouldn't be free.
Also allowing a limited amount of feats to be available only when fused just plain makes sense as melee characters get more feats, but may not be necessary.
But the only way for me to be sure of any of this to actually to get a chance to play one. My Magus is still going on strong though in my current campaign and is unlike to die unless I purposely jump him off a cliff. So it will be a bit.
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Thanks for the opinions.