Okay, now that Elan's gotten your attention, I've got a rules question for you. What DC and modifiers do you set for the following perception check.
A team of goblin rogues successfully sneaks up on the party's night watchman, taking him down in the surprise round with hurled knives. What DC perception check do the other PCs sleeping 10-30 feet away in their tents have to make to hear his death? Does this count as "combat"? Would it not count as combat if the team of goblin rogues melee sneak attacked him?
I'd say DC -10 ("sounds of battle" - the clang knives against armor, a sharp yelp of pain, the thud of a falling victim), modified by distance (+1 per 10'), and sleep (+10), possibly by "unfavorable" or "terrible" conditions for the noise being very brief (+2 or +5 to the DC respectively). Even if PCs wake up to the sound, by the time they stand, grab appropriate gear, and make it out of their tents, the goblin rogues should have enough time to hide (with a decent modifier given their racial bonus and size, which will only be improved by the dark of night limiting vision and distance). Arguments could be made that it says "battle" and not "combat" however. Definately no quieter than walking (DC 10) at any rate, so still quite a low check.
Do the goblins get to make a stealth check to oppose this perception check from the sleeping PCs?
Do the goblins get to make a stealth check to oppose this perception check from the sleeping PCs?
To avoid being perceived, of course. The guard on the other hand will likely make the same amount of noise being injured or dying regardless of how well the goblins hide themselve, since I'd doubt the guard wishes to remain quiet as well.
I'd say DC -10 ("sounds of battle" - the clang knives against armor, a sharp yelp of pain, the thud of a falling victim), modified by distance (+1 per 10'), and sleep (+10), possibly by "unfavorable" or "terrible" conditions for the noise being very brief (+2 or +5 to the DC respectively). Definately no quieter than walking (DC 10) at any rate, so still quite a low check.
So, basically, the perception check is a DC 1 to DC 3 check, depending only on the distance. At worst, if I applied terrible condition modifier a DC 6 to DC 8 check.
So, how would a team of goblin rogues take out that security guard without alerting everyone sleeping in tents nearby? Isn't this supposed to be an iconic scenario of DnD? Does it not work now?
Here is how i see it:
This isn't the "sound of battle", this is a sneak attack. If it moves past the surprise round, it will most likely become "sounds of battle" but as it stands...
If the guard went down in the surprise round, I wouldn't allow him to make any sort of noise, other than a grunt or some such from getting hit (DC should be about equivalent to hearing the sound of someone walking, DC10 + 10 for sleeping +1 every 10 ft for distance). If any of the goblins missed their attacks, the DC to hear decreases (-5 to DC), but if they all hit, all the blades hit flesh, whether he was wearing armor or not (yes hps are abstract, but in this case it is how i would rule it). Him falling to the ground when everyone else is asleep could make some noise if he is in plate, or chain (-5 DC onto hard ground, -2 DC if into leaves/underbrush/soft stuff), but if he is wearing leathers or hide, he won't make much noise. If the other PCs are inside tents, increase the DC by 2 (wind rustling the tent a bit, people rolling around hitting the sides, etc).
so,
DC20 + distance baseline
-5 total for any missed attacks as knives hit dirt/brush/bounce off the target in the area
AND
-5 if he is wearing metal armor and falls onto hard ground
OR
-2 if he is wearing metal armor and falls onto undergrowthIf they had come up on him and killed him in the surprise round with melee attacks they could have caught his body before he fell to the ground, negating the last penalty.
If the shoe was on the other foot, and your party came upon a camp with a single sentry, and you took him out nearly instantly (surprise round), wouldn't you be pretty upset if he either; A) got a warning off anyways, or B) had the entire camp wake up because the DM called that a "battle"?
+1
+1Here is how i see it:
This isn't the "sound of battle", this is a sneak attack. If it moves past the surprise round, it will most likely become "sounds of battle" but as it stands...
If the guard went down in the surprise round, I wouldn't allow him to make any sort of noise, other than a grunt or some such from getting hit (DC should be about equivalent to hearing the sound of someone walking, DC10 + 10 for sleeping +1 every 10 ft for distance). If any of the goblins missed their attacks, the DC to hear decreases (-5 to DC), but if they all hit, all the blades hit flesh, whether he was wearing armor or not (yes hps are abstract, but in this case it is how i would rule it). Him falling to the ground when everyone else is asleep could make some noise if he is in plate, or chain (-5 DC onto hard ground, -2 DC if into leaves/underbrush/soft stuff), but if he is wearing leathers or hide, he won't make much noise. If the other PCs are inside tents, increase the DC by 2 (wind rustling the tent a bit, people rolling around hitting the sides, etc).
so,
DC20 + distance baseline
-5 total for any missed attacks as knives hit dirt/brush/bounce off the target in the area
AND
-5 if he is wearing metal armor and falls onto hard ground
OR
-2 if he is wearing metal armor and falls onto undergrowthIf they had come up on him and killed him in the surprise round with melee attacks they could have caught his body before he fell to the ground, negating the last penalty.
If the shoe was on the other foot, and your party came upon a camp with a single sentry, and you took him out nearly instantly (surprise round), wouldn't you be pretty upset if he either; A) got a warning off anyways, or B) had the entire camp wake up because the DM called that a "battle"?
+2 especially with the shoe on other foot comment. Gotta give the people who try and sneak up a break, otherwise every combat just starts with a frontal assault 'yawn'
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I would say that the key point is the time/number of attacks spent to kill the target.
Remember, the attacks aren't simultaneous, so:
1) the OP scenario - several goblins have attacked the guard by surprise with throwing knifes
- the guard was killed or incapacitated by the first knife? Then the only noise produced is the guard falling to the ground, and several knifes hitting him. A sharp, brief noise: DC 10, modified by +10 for being asleep, +1 for each 10', -2 if 1-2 knifes missed OR -5 if more knifes missed, -2 for metal armour or shield; -2 for hard ground;
- to kill the guard were necessary several hits? The guard would almost certainly cry reflexively, so another -5 to the DC
2) the "special soldiers movies. One hand over the mount and one knife through his throat." modus operandi:
- the guard was killed or incapacitated by the first attack? I would allow a CMB vs a CMD of 10 (plus size modifier), to grab the guard and ease it to the ground. If the CMB is successful the DC for the guys asleep would be: DC 15, modified by +10 for being asleep, +1 for each 10', with a possible -2 modifier if the guard has something in hand (like a spear) AND the ground is hard. If unsuccessful, modifiers as above, but the base DC is still 15.
- the guard is not killed by the first attack? Base DC 10 with all the modifiers under 1 to hear the scuffle.
Note: Combat Reflexes if the guard has this feat I would allow him to cry a one word warning after the first attack if not killed.
That would be way stronger than a simple cry of pain and more similar to a batle shout, so the modifier would be -10 instead of -5.
Note 2: the problem of how to achieve a 1 shot/1 kill situation in D&D is very real, but a few classes (assassin essentially) have a way to achieve that with the Death Attack ability.
I am favourable to adding a Rogue talent that achieve the same result with the same kind of requirement.
So killing a high level guard in one attack would require 3 round of study and 3 rounds of successful hiding (plus a failed ST on the guard part).
I'd say DC -10 ("sounds of battle" - the clang knives against armor, a sharp yelp of pain, the thud of a falling victim), modified by distance (+1 per 10'), and sleep (+10), possibly by "unfavorable" or "terrible" conditions for the noise being very brief (+2 or +5 to the DC respectively). Definately no quieter than walking (DC 10) at any rate, so still quite a low check.So, basically, the perception check is a DC 1 to DC 3 check, depending only on the distance. At worst, if I applied terrible condition modifier a DC 6 to DC 8 check.
So, how would a team of goblin rogues take out that security guard without alerting everyone sleeping in tents nearby? Isn't this supposed to be an iconic scenario of DnD? Does it not work now?
Against a DC of 8, 6, or 3, it is still possible to fail at low levels; the roll will only be a d20 plus WIS modifier if they haven't trained Perception, perhaps with a circumstance penalty for hearing it through a tent, muffling the noise, and another for hearing it over snoring allies. That can put the DC up to 12 effectively. PCs are exceptional people, if they are trained in Perception then they are perceptive and should have a good chance to wake at such a thing. Otherwise the goblins could just use smarter tactics- silence, hit and run, poison, and so on. Even if the PCs hear the guard dying, once they get up and out to check it out, the goblins should have plenty of time to re-stealth and not be seen themselves.
Unless he was either hit in the throat, or took enough off of one of the knives to do it in one hit, he's going to make a fair amount of noise going down.
Like Diego said, I would allow a melee sneak attack to remove the sound of him falling. As well, if they do it in melee, I would say that it automatically silences him as long as they can kill him in the surprise round.
From range, let them take a small penalty to their attack in order to target the throat, if they're worried about not killing him in one hit. I think sneak attack assumes you're already targeting vitals, so it shouldn't be more than -2, or maybe lose a die off the sneak attack.
Given that a first level goblin rogue would start with a +16 Stealth (+4 size, +4 dex, +1 rank, +3 class, +4 race), it would seem that it's counter-productive for them to bother with the watchman. Kill the watchman, they wake the entire camp. Ignore him, and the watchman has to roll a DC 27-29 perception check (on average) to spot the goblins as they get inside each tent. Even if an individual goblin rolls a 2, they've got a vastly better chance that 1 guy won't get a perception check of 18 vs. 5 guys getting to roll vs. a 3.
Given that a first level goblin rogue would start with a +16 Stealth (+4 size, +4 dex, +1 rank, +3 class, +4 race), it would seem that it's counter-productive for them to bother with the watchman. Kill the watchman, they wake the entire camp. Ignore him, and the watchman has to roll a DC 27-29 perception check (on average) to spot the goblins as they get inside each tent. Even if an individual goblin rolls a 2, they've got a vastly better chance that 1 guy won't get a perception check of 18 vs. 5 guys getting to roll vs. a 3.
Pretty much. Even pumping the DC with circumstance modifiers to an 8 or possibly 12; sneaking in, coup de gracing the group simultaneously, and swarming the guard on the way out would be a more tactical option. However, goblins aren't known for fully thinking through their plans, so it is entirely possible that they choose a poor plan of attack.
The encounter is a hit squad for the PCs in Red Hand of Doom campaign that I'm running. Having taken out two forts of the Red Hand, this is the leadership's attempt to take them out. They've sent not their best, but their best expendable unit.
Basically, the setup's going to be 6 goblin rogue 3s and a greater barghest vs. 6 sleeping 7th level PCs and an awake 7th level PC. The PCs will have had an uneventful day, so have access to their full spell complement but start without armor or weapons in hand.
The plan is that 5 goblins coup de grace 5 sleepers, with a sixth goblin and the GR barghest under an invisibility sphere handling any movement towards the campfire by the 6th sleeper and the watchman.
Since these are goblins, one of the goblins will strike first out of eagerness, rather than have an uncharacteristic synchronized coup de grace.