Hi folks,
I have a player in my game who has a character practically no monster of mine can hit. He's practically a walking tank. Mind you, we're approaching the end of an adventure path so the PCs are all like 16th-17th level, so it's quite normal for them to have strong characters.
I'm just looking for a way to make that PC a little more 'hittable' so I may rough him up a little in the final few battles. I know if I hit him with something like a SLOW spell, the wizard of the group will automatically dispell it on the next round... So how would you guys go about it, without making it look too much like you did it on purpose?
(I don't want to kill the guy, but having him practically walk through the final chapters of the Adventure Path unscathed would be quite an anti-climax...)
Thanks!
Ultradan
Touch attacks, multiple spellcasters. At 16th level, you don't encounter a guy flinging Slow - you encounter eight guys with different debuffs and two ready to counter your wizard's dispel.
What are his strengths? Does he just have high AC? How high is his touch AC? How good are his saves? His acrobatics/fly skills?
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Hi folks,
I have a player in my game who has a character practically no monster of mine can hit. He's practically a walking tank. Mind you, we're approaching the end of an adventure path so the PCs are all like 16th-17th level, so it's quite normal for them to have strong characters.
I'm just looking for a way to make that PC a little more 'hittable' so I may rough him up a little in the final few battles. I know if I hit him with something like a SLOW spell, the wizard of the group will automatically dispell it on the next round... So how would you guys go about it, without making it look too much like you did it on purpose?
(I don't want to kill the guy, but having him practically walk through the final chapters of the Adventure Path unscathed would be quite an anti-climax...)
Thanks!
Ultradan
Scrying, then end caster uses touch, enchantment and will save or die. Sunder on a BBEG bodyguard can just plain ole break it but is fairly obvious. Mage's disjunction is always a blast.
Have a few monsters at the back of the ambush pack with a level of sorc.
True strike with magic/poisoned xbow bolts.
Yes some actual numbers would be helpful(AC, saves, other defenses) then folks can tweak to hit but not destroy or out right destroy if that's what you want
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Gunslinger Pit Fiend.
Sunder!!!
Especially for the final battle. If he walks out having beat the final bad but is half naked and with a broken sword he will feel beat up... and there won't be any real in game detriment (not that you can't fix stuff anyway).
If you nail his armor and shield (assuming that is how he is getting a high AC), it will drop the AC significantly.
Sean Mahoney
Silence on the wizard, Slow on the tank, Touch attacks against the tank, teleport the tank 300' into the air
Touch attacks, multiple spellcasters. At 16th level, you don't encounter a guy flinging Slow - you encounter eight guys with different debuffs and two ready to counter your wizard's dispel.
What are his strengths? Does he just have high AC? How high is his touch AC? How good are his saves? His acrobatics/fly skills?
His strength is basically an incredibly high Armor Class. And, like I said, there's always the rest of the group nearby waiting to dispel/counter de-buffing spells.
The TOUCH attacks sound very interesting though...
Ultradan
Silence on the wizard, Slow on the tank, Touch attacks against the tank, teleport the tank 300' into the airOnly you can't teleport someone onto a surface that can't support their weight...
Cleverly placed wall of force 300 ft in the air that you're ready to get rid of?
you can always improve your monsters if they are not quite up to the job of smashing a tank.
If you feel encounters are to weak add more monsters/sub bosses.
if his AC is based off of armor and not dodge/ deflection and the like he might also be vulnerable to maneuvers (could be sunder could be something else) so you could have AM EBIL BARBARIAN (AM BARBARIAN'S MUSTACHIO'ED TWIN) roll up with STR surge and sunder him like a tin can and spell sunder the buff's the others throw which may also lower his AC if he surrounded by buff bots.
I'm finishing Rise of the Runelords actually...
Ultradan
Hi folks,
I have a player in my game who has a character practically no monster of mine can hit. He's practically a walking tank. Mind you, we're approaching the end of an adventure path so the PCs are all like 16th-17th level, so it's quite normal for them to have strong characters.
I'm just looking for a way to make that PC a little more 'hittable' so I may rough him up a little in the final few battles. I know if I hit him with something like a SLOW spell, the wizard of the group will automatically dispell it on the next round... So how would you guys go about it, without making it look too much like you did it on purpose?
(I don't want to kill the guy, but having him practically walk through the final chapters of the Adventure Path unscathed would be quite an anti-climax...)
Thanks!
Ultradan
Is he much of a threat to monsters? I find often that masters of defense are not very scary in terms of contribution to combat.
I'm finishing Rise of the Runelords actually...
NONONNONONO!
No spoilers without labels! I'm playing Rise of the Runelords!
Silence on the wizard, Slow on the tank, Touch attacks against the tank, teleport the tank 300' into the airOnly you can't teleport someone onto a surface that can't support their weight...
I don't see that note anywhere in the spell description...
--> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleportBut if that's the case, teleport him into an active volcano or lava pit.
if his AC is based off of armor and not dodge/ deflection and the like he might also be vulnerable to maneuvers (could be sunder could be something else) so you could have AM EBIL BARBARIAN (AM BARBARIAN'S MUSTACHIO'ED TWIN) roll up with STR surge and sunder him like a tin can and spell sunder the buff's the others throw which may also lower his AC if he surrounded by buff bots.
THAT WHERE HE AM GOT TO!
if his AC is based off of armor and not dodge/ deflection and the like he might also be vulnerable to maneuvers (could be sunder could be something else) so you could have AM EBIL BARBARIAN (AM BARBARIAN'S MUSTACHIO'ED TWIN) roll up with STR surge and sunder him like a tin can and spell sunder the buff's the others throw which may also lower his AC if he surrounded by buff bots.THAT WHERE HE AM GOT TO!
I'm looking out for you chief!
His strength is basically an incredibly high Armor Class. And, like I said, there's always the rest of the group nearby waiting to dispel/counter de-buffing spells.
Well, that's why you use effects that can't be easily countered; instant effect debuffs that take time/preparation to undo. Stone to flesh and bestow curse are examples of debuffs that can't be dispelled, waves of fatigue and greater shout are instantenous debuffs.
Also, mass debuffs that affect more than one person; note the PF versions of dispel and greater dispel have been greatly nerfed, and area dispelling is weaker than before.
And as always, action economy: One opponent will always get eaten by four PC's. Use minions, and use CASTER minions. A few casters in the back casting something as basic as Hold Person or Slow, readying actions to cast a new if one gets dispelled, can do wonders.
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Silence on the wizard, Slow on the tank, Touch attacks against the tank, teleport the tank 300' into the airOnly you can't teleport someone onto a surface that can't support their weight...I don't see that note anywhere in the spell description...
--> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleportBut if that's the case, teleport him into an active volcano or lava pit.
Why is it that spellcasters never seem to read the MAGIC chapter? Note the bolded section. Even though it says brought to your location the reverse also holds true.
Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
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May not work but some of the APG spells make instant pits you could drop him into. some with acid and such. my not really hurt him just take him outta the fight for a while.
Alternatively, use a bunch (50or so) of minions types with acid flasks, touch AC on the square he is standing in is only 5.Each flask does 1 point splash dmg, no save and 1st level minions could do it if they get surprise or initiative. 50 points that is unavoidable unless he has resistance or protection, in one shot, usually shakes up most peeps. 'Course they all die that round but its sometimes fun to do to the big tough hero.
May not work but some of the APG spells make instant pits you could drop him into. some with acid and such. my not really hurt him just take him outta the fight for a while.
They're 16th level. He flies.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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May not work but some of the APG spells make instant pits you could drop him into. some with acid and such. my not really hurt him just take him outta the fight for a while.
Create pit, spiked pit, and hungry pit. They all create a 10-foot-wide pit that he'll fall into unless he makes a reflex save to jump out of the way. The basic version (a mere second-level spell) is up to 30 feet deep (minor falling damage) and will take some actions to climb out of (climb DC 25).
The spiked version is deeper (up to 50 ft) and has spikes that deal an extra 2d6 piercing damage when they hit bottom. The spikes on the sides deal 1d6 damage per round to a climbing character [i]or any object in contact with them[i], such as a rope lowered down for them to climb up. How much HP does a rope have, again?
The hungry version is up to 100 ft deep. Since it chews up its victims, anyone inside the pit (even if they're halfway up the wall) takes 4d6 bludgeoning every round. And the climb DC is 35.
So, just how good is this tin can's reflex save, anyway? :D
Prismatic wall behind him.
Forceful hand/telekinesis/bullrush/whatever from the front.
Splat.
Not all the time plan accordingly.
They're 16th level. He flies.
Flying isn't an issue ever at that level, barring a hurricane or the like. That could work though, reaaaally strong winds to keep them on ground and using pits/grease/rock to mud/whatever.
If you succeed at making a good ambush where no-one flies (though that would be hard), you're better of casting some save-or-dies than a pit.
The pit spells are great when you get them, but by level 16 they're not that good.
They're 16th level. He flies.Not all the time plan accordingly.
Flying isn't an issue ever at that level, barring a hurricane or the like. That could work though, reaaaally strong winds to keep them on ground and using pits/grease/rock to mud/whatever.
Alternatively how does lack of flying impact the BBEG? A no fly zone may really hurt a dragon for instance (I don't have my books to pull a really good example just spit ballin) but not hinder the party as badly even with the pit spells and walls of force and the like.
In terms of running an AP I suspect you must feel a bit restricted, and wondering IF you can apply some of these strategies.
Yes you can. I assume that the main point of the AP is The Story. The rest of what is written into the booklets is Time Saver for the GM - the NPCs, the locales etc. By which I mean, do what you can to keep to the story of the AP but adjust/modify/erase/recreate/add to anything and everything to keep it fun and challenging for your players.
The first thing I would look to is based on Easy on Time Management. For the combat encounters look at the lower CR foes and think about doubling the amount of them - 6 guards become twelve, and have another 6 within earshot, two rounds away. Send most of these against your tank, keep two or three readied ranged attacks for the spell casters. The others should gang up on the PCs one at a time.
The other thing I like to do to shut down a PC is to Grapple them using many grapplers. You probably won't kill him, you may not get to Pin him, you maybnot even get to Grapple him, but it will consume all his actions for a few rounds. Maybe Overrun first - are there CMD penalties for being Prone?
Swap feats arround on the foe so that they are Grapple specialists, and go watch some WWF :-)
The other thing that freaks out my players is Readied Actions. Having the enemy standing their waiting is unnerving. Think about what the NPCs would do in ideal circumstances, then ready their actions to do just that. For me,
1- disrupt spell casting, Archery works well here.
2- prevent tanks from getting close, Create Pit, Wall of Stuff, or even have sacrificial NPCs Charge in, one at a time. If the Tank is busy dealing with these he can't move.
3- kill the foe one at a time, starting with the squishiest looking. All other foes should focus on one at a time (as much as possible, in the same way PCs tend to do it).
Why is it that spellcasters never seem to read the MAGIC chapter? Note the bolded section. Even though it says brought to your location the reverse also holds true.
Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Really I think the better question is why you couldn't have posted that with 100% less hostility. You're also assuming that I play a spellcaster and thus would have reason to know the in's and out's of the spells.
Beyond you saying that "Even though it says brought to your location the reverse also holds true." and the Creative Director of the product inferring support of that statement, where in the rules does it say that you cannot teleport into open air?
Alternatively how does lack of flying impact the BBEG? A no fly zone may really hurt a dragon for instance (I don't have my books to pull a really good example just spit ballin) but not hinder the party as badly even with the pit spells and walls of force and the like.
It depends, largely on how you interpret the rules; more specifically, if a creature with flight with bad maneuvarability but high speed casts Fly, what happens? If it gains good maneuvarability at it's full speed, an ancient green dragon (for example) already has good ranks in Fly, and if it knows fly, it could cast it to increase his fly from +9 to +27 - far more than the party fighter will sport. It's size makes it far less affected by strong winds too; the fighter if medium/large has to do a DC 25/20 fly check every round or be blown away/stand still. The dragon would only sport +15 fly with the -12 penalty, probably less than the party wizard, but due to it's size it doesn't have to make checks that often.
Alternatively how does lack of flying impact the BBEG? A no fly zone may really hurt a dragon for instance (I don't have my books to pull a really good example just spit ballin) but not hinder the party as badly even with the pit spells and walls of force and the like.It depends, largely on how you interpret the rules; more specifically, if a creature with flight with bad maneuvarability but high speed casts Fly, what happens? If it gains good maneuvarability at it's full speed, an ancient green dragon (for example) already has good ranks in Fly, and if it knows fly, it could cast it to increase his fly from +9 to +27 - far more than the party fighter will sport. It's size makes it far less affected by strong winds too; the fighter if medium/large has to do a DC 25/20 fly check every round or be blown away/stand still. The dragon would only sport +15 fly with the -12 penalty, probably less than the party wizard, but due to it's size it doesn't have to make checks that often.
Don't get me wrong I was agreeing with you. But you do show numbers wise just how certain BBEG's don't really benefit from "get the PC's when they can't fly" approach
I'm finishing Rise of the Runelords actually...NONONNONONO!
No spoilers without labels! I'm playing Rise of the Runelords!
Yikes... SO SORRY guys! I wasn't thinking (my bad!!).
Ultradan
I'm finishing Rise of the Runelords actually...NONONNONONO!
No spoilers without labels! I'm playing Rise of the Runelords!
Yikes... SO SORRY guys! I wasn't thinking (my bad!!).
Ultradan
I was cursin' ya too. :P My players are just starting Spires. And two definitely frequent these boards.
Hopefully a Golem will spoiler the post :)
Greg
I added a spoiler tag.
Don't forget the 'aid another' feature. If an ally in melee can hit AC10... he can give his buddy a +2 to hit.
WE had to do that a LOT last night, cause we couldn't HIT the bad guy... Should work for the bad guys too ;)
Don't get me wrong I was agreeing with you. But you do show numbers wise just how certain BBEG's don't really benefit from "get the PC's when they can't fly" approachAlternatively how does lack of flying impact the BBEG? A no fly zone may really hurt a dragon for instance (I don't have my books to pull a really good example just spit ballin) but not hinder the party as badly even with the pit spells and walls of force and the like.It depends, largely on how you interpret the rules; more specifically, if a creature with flight with bad maneuvarability but high speed casts Fly, what happens? If it gains good maneuvarability at it's full speed, an ancient green dragon (for example) already has good ranks in Fly, and if it knows fly, it could cast it to increase his fly from +9 to +27 - far more than the party fighter will sport. It's size makes it far less affected by strong winds too; the fighter if medium/large has to do a DC 25/20 fly check every round or be blown away/stand still. The dragon would only sport +15 fly with the -12 penalty, probably less than the party wizard, but due to it's size it doesn't have to make checks that often.
Well, no solution fits everyone, but if I was a green dragon and knew there's a more or less untouchable piece of metal that wants me killed and his primary way of movement is flying even though he's not that skilled at it, I'd say it's worth fighting in a hurricane any day.
But yes, of course some monsters won't benefit from it, and dragons might be one of them - they're not really good flyers to begin with.
How's his grapple/CMD?
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Why is it that spellcasters never seem to read the MAGIC chapter? Note the bolded section. Even though it says brought to your location the reverse also holds true.
Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Really I think the better question is why you couldn't have posted that with 100% less hostility. You're also assuming that I play a spellcaster and thus would have reason to know the in's and out's of the spells.
Beyond you saying that "Even though it says brought to your location the reverse also holds true." and the Creative Director of the product inferring support of that statement, where in the rules does it say that you cannot teleport into open air?
The hostility was 100% not pointed at you specifically, rather players of spellcasters who don't bother reading how magic in general works. That's like a melee character not bothering to read the combat chapter. It's simply a huge pet peeve of mine. I have to constantly reiterate it to some of my own players in fact.
That said the section I bolded is the general rule for the school of Conjuration of which teleport is a subschool. Parsed the rule states "a creature or object transported to a location cannot appear floating in an empty space."
--Vrocktoberfest
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So my little threadjack aside...
Tanks at high levels require special planning. Flight isn't always possible especially in dungeon settings but movement and mundane terrain are rarely a problem beyond 10th level.
Trying to hit the ridiculous AC of a defense focused character can be frustrating. Try things like Brilliant Energy weapons (especially on ammo), the Seeking enhancement, and Bane weapons. Heck a single Tanglefoot bag is almost as good as an Enervation barring Freedom of Movement.
Sometimes it's easier to do damage via defense! Things like Fire Shield or a Barbed Devils spikes cause damage when he hits the enemy. Creatures that have auras force saves each round which eventually he will miss. My favorite monster the Vrock has an auto hit spore attack that deals a small amount damage for 10 rounds! A warband doing a dance of ruin can unleash quite a number of spores.
And never underestimate a few good buffs and good tactics. Heroism, Haste, Flanking, Charging, Aid Another all add up.
A few things to consider:
1) Aid Another can be used by the enemy
2) Spells like Force Cage don't need to hit AC
3) Spells like Cloudkill don't need to hit AC
4) Spells work well together, like Forge Cage and Cloudkill
5) Plane Shift is a touch attack
6) The elemental plane of water doesn't need an attack roll
7) Harm is a touch attack that deals 75 points of damage on a successful save...
8) Aid Another works while flanking
9) Summon Monster or Nature's Ally III+ can bring in 2-5 creatures to help with those Aid Another/Flanking actions
10) CMD =/= AC. Disarm, sunder, etc, are all options.
One evil alchemist bomber. The new king of the touch attack.
improved feint, improved invisibility/non-detection, area attacks, true strike/poison, flanking, buffs, aid another, sunder/other maneuvers, higher ground, poor visibility/ranged attacks, traps (within another encounter), spells*.
Also don't be afraid to use guerilla or other underhanded tactics once in a while if they consistantly use buffs at the start of an encounter, creatures can regroup change tactics learn their strengths and weaknesses and drain resources. Much of the PCs strengths come from being dumped inultimately predictable scenarios they can anticipate well
* anti-magic, dispels and anything else countering their strengths, walls, anti-life shells and summons can have them waste valuable rounds.
Combine some of the above in encounters, at high level you will have to challenge the pcs on multiple levels at once because they should be able to counter any single threat quite easily.
For those that recommended targeting his CMD:
I don't know how his enourmous AC comes from but keep in mind that A LOT of the things that give you AC also give you CMD by default (whether they say so or not)