PFS Rules Revision / Modification #3

[Thod]

Dennis Baker wrote:

As much as I like the idea of being able to upgrade named stuff, I think this rule is reasonable under PFS because there is too much room for interpretation of how you would upgrade items.

Perhaps some upgraded versions of these items could be included in chronicles though...

+1

[Shivok]

bdk86 wrote:

Agreed. The 'named magic items' as I am lead to believe you're defining them do not scale well in the standard power-to-cost scaling for Magic Arms/Armor.

That said, this may be incentive for 'upgraded' versions of named magic items to appear on Chronicle Sheets.

Hint. Hint.

+1

This has been brought up on other threads. The PFS Chronicle sheets should stop having items that are generic and already available to PC's with prestige.

Instead include upgraded/specific items on Chronicle sheets.i.e. boots of dexterity instead of a belt.

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

I would like to vote against allowing named magical items being upgraded with anything with a +# value. The game designers have formulas that they used to set the cost of each of the armor’s unique abilities in relation to the item’s listed enchantments. The powers such as the aquatic powers of plate armor of the deep or the flying ability of celestial armor. The unique powers don’t follow normal item cost progression.

Upgrading named magical items with abilities with a flat +GP value should be allowed. Such as adding glamour or shadow to rhino hide.

I would like to see the ability to trade up to a named item allowed, just like you can upgrade a +2 str belt to a +2 str/con belt. As long as the items material and current enchantments matches the unique item, you would be able to pay the difference and get the unique item. Example if you have a suit of +1 mithral full plate and want to upgrade to mithral full plate of speed you would just pay the difference to get the haste power. If you had steel full plate you couldn’t upgrade, since the item is not made of mithral.

[Pirate Rob]

How about Elven Boots into Boots of Striding and Springing?

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

Pirate Rob wrote:

How about Elven Boots into Boots of Striding and Springing?

Well the Boots of Elvenkind give a +5 comp bonus to Acrobatics, and the Boots of Striding and Springing grant +5 comp bonus to Acrobatics and a +10ft movement increase.

Since the +str belt and +str/con belt are separate items and are allowed to be converted up. I would say the boots example would be allowable using my rule suggestion. It would really be based on how specific the campaign staff would be as to what was allowed/not allowed.

[Jiggy]

I think this is the type of rule where we really need it to be clean and categorical, not riddled with exceptions. I.e., either we make a system for altering Named Magic Items (or whatever we want to call them) or we ban it outright. None of this "you mostly can't alter them unless it's a certain kind of alteration to a certain kind of item" business.

[james maissen]

Michael Brock wrote:

3) Named magical items cannot be upgraded. Only weapons and armor can have additional special abilities added. Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless it appears on a Chronicle Sheet or is provided as part of a class or archetype (i.e. Black Blade Magus Archetype).

I would draw the line at 'custom items that require DM adjudication for pricing' and allow anything that the core rules allow that don't need such intervention.

There doesn't seem to be a need to restrict other than that in my opinion. The core rules allow for somethings without DM adjudication, and that seems a perfectly fine stance for PFS to take as a default method of operations.

We already allow for +2 light fortification adamantine spiked light shield enchanted as a weapon with +1 holy dueling flaming enchantments... so it's not a question of 'it's too complicated'.. and nor should it be. PFS should be a place for people to really learn the Pathfinder rules.

I don't see why we would say disallow a belt of +2 STR and +4 DEX that follows core rules for pricing while we have a subset of the possible combinations along the way allowed as upgrades from a +2STR belt.

It's my view that PFS should only disallow where the organized nature of the campaign makes DM calls unavailable.. such as researching new spells or creating new magic items.

-James

[Andrew Christian]

Shivok wrote:

Instead include upgraded/specific items on Chronicle sheets.i.e. boots of dexterity instead of a belt.

I doubt you will see items break the suggested Body Slot Affinities.

[Andrew Christian]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Probably ought to take elven chain off that list, as it is treated as light armor for proficency. That's a bonus that regular chainmail can't have.

Elven Chain is essentially Mithril Chain. The benefit does not come because it is Elven, but rather because the special material is Mithril.

Buying a Mithril Chain Shirt is something you can do as long as you have the right amount of Fame and Gold. It is considered a masterwork non-magical item. As such, you can turn it into a magical item, otherwise you'd never have magical armor that was made of special materials, and that would be silly.

[Jiggy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Probably ought to take elven chain off that list, as it is treated as light armor for proficency. That's a bonus that regular chainmail can't have.

Elven Chain is essentially Mithril Chain. The benefit does not come because it is Elven, but rather because the special material is Mithril.

This is incorrect. A rogue in mithral chain will have a -2 to his attacks; a penalty he won't have in Elven Chain.

[Andrew Christian]

Jiggy wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Probably ought to take elven chain off that list, as it is treated as light armor for proficency. That's a bonus that regular chainmail can't have.

Elven Chain is essentially Mithril Chain. The benefit does not come because it is Elven, but rather because the special material is Mithril.

This is incorrect. A rogue in mithral chain will have a -2 to his attacks; a penalty he won't have in Elven Chain.

So, it is a function of the Mithril material. Any medium armor made of mithril is considered light.

It isn't some unnamed magical function of Elven Chain.

[Jiggy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

So, it is a function of the Mithril material. Any medium armor made of mithril is considered light.

It isn't some unnamed magical function of Elven Chain.

That's what I'm saying is incorrect:

Mithral, Equipment Chapter:

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.

Elven Chain:

This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency.

The mithral material does not make it light for purposes of proficiency. Elven Chain does. Thus, Elven Chain has a property that is not universal to any medium armor made of mithral.

[Andrew Christian]

Jiggy wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

So, it is a function of the Mithril material. Any medium armor made of mithril is considered light.

It isn't some unnamed magical function of Elven Chain.

That's what I'm saying is incorrect:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

The mithral material does not make it light for purposes of proficiency. Elven Chain does. Thus, Elven Chain has a property that is not universal to any medium armor made of mithral.

Ok, I stand corrected.

However, it is still non-magical. So just consider Elven Chain as "extra" special material. Basically Mithril Chain made by master Elven Craftsmen.

You should still be allowed to turn Elven Chain into Magical Elven Chain.

[Jiggy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

However, it is still non-magical. So just consider Elven Chain as "extra" special material. Basically Mithril Chain made by master Elven Craftsmen.

You should still be allowed to turn Elven Chain into Magical Elven Chain.

Agreed. Some "special rare elfy stuff" it must be if it can't be enchanted. :P

Just as long as the eventually-decided-upon rule is clear and concise. Something like this:

Jiggy's Version wrote:

Named magic items (such as weapon example or other example) cannot be further enchanted. This does not include nonmagical named items (such as elven chain); they can be enchanted as normal. Magic items which provide a range of numerical bonuses (such as rings of protection or belts of giant strength) can be upgraded to a higher listed value (such as going from +1 to +2) but cannot be otherwise modified.

Or something like that.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

So, it is a function of the Mithril material. Any medium armor made of mithril is considered light.

It isn't some unnamed magical function of Elven Chain.

That's what I'm saying is incorrect:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

The mithral material does not make it light for purposes of proficiency. Elven Chain does. Thus, Elven Chain has a property that is not universal to any medium armor made of mithral.

Ok, I stand corrected.

However, it is still non-magical. So just consider Elven Chain as "extra" special material. Basically Mithril Chain made by master Elven Craftsmen.

You should still be allowed to turn Elven Chain into Magical Elven Chain.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that it should be upgradeable. Its just that its another bonus tacked on, and while its not magical, it *is* a bonus that doesn't fit into the table. Plus, it is listed under magic armor even though it doesn't actually have any magical properties. Its just something to consider when coming up with the rule.

[Jiggy]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that it should be upgradeable. Its just that its another bonus tacked on, and while its not magical, it *is* a bonus that doesn't fit into the table. Plus, it is listed under magic armor even though it doesn't actually have any magical properties. Its just something to consider when coming up with the rule.

Mind having a look at my proposed wording (the post right above yours) and telling me if that seems clear enough?

[Alexander_Damocles]

Jiggy wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that it should be upgradeable. Its just that its another bonus tacked on, and while its not magical, it *is* a bonus that doesn't fit into the table. Plus, it is listed under magic armor even though it doesn't actually have any magical properties. Its just something to consider when coming up with the rule.

Mind having a look at my proposed wording (the post right above yours) and telling me if that seems clear enough?

Seems clear to me, and it makes sense. I just know about 4-5 players eyeballing elven chain for their characters, didn't want it to get ninja'd out from under them.

[Jason S]

Michael Brock wrote:

Stuff

That sounds fine. Honestly I thought it was already a rule.

[Shivok]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Shivok wrote:

Instead include upgraded/specific items on Chronicle sheets.i.e. boots of dexterity instead of a belt.

I doubt you will see items break the suggested Body Slot Affinities.

Its a suggestion to allow variety, the only difference would be the +50% gp cost that a player would still have to meet inorder to purchase the item.

[Marack]

Michael Brock wrote:

3) Named magical items cannot be upgraded. Only weapons and armor can have additional special abilities added. Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless it appears on a Chronicle Sheet or is provided as part of a class or archetype (i.e. Black Blade Magus Archetype).

I think if we can get clear rules regarding how much to pay to upgrade them, we should be able to upgrade named items. Named items are fun and have a lot of flavor. Players shouldn't feel penalized for taking them over +2 sword #314159. Good rules for this are a must though. This isn't something we should have to break out the slide rule and FAQ for at the end of a con session.

Intelligent items are another thing. I think that it should stay as is, with the caveat that there should be more chronicle sheets with access them as rewards.

[james maissen]

Andrew Christian wrote:

However, it is still non-magical. So just consider Elven Chain as "extra" special material. Basically Mithril Chain made by master Elven Craftsmen.

You should still be allowed to turn Elven Chain into Magical Elven Chain.

You should be able to do any enchantment for which there is a core rules defined price that doesn't require DM adjudication (such as creating new magic items or researching new spells).

It's a really easy line to draw. The issue becomes a core rules issue, in which frankly, everyone in PFS should be striving to increase their knowledge.

-James

[Mike Schneider]

I don't have any problems with upgrading named items (magical or mundane) provided there's a nice table somewhere in GPSOPv5 laying out the rules.

Compared to some of the outlandishness players can pull off just by multiclassing weird archetypes at low-level -- throwing a huge wad of cash at Celestial Armor close to retirement for another point of AC and a bonus to Escape Artist is nothing special.

[Jiggy]

Mike Schneider wrote:

I don't have any problems with upgrading named items (magical or mundane) provided there's a nice table somewhere in GPSOPv5 laying out the rules.

Compared to some of the outlandishness players can pull off just by multiclassing weird archetypes at low-level -- throwing a huge wad of cash at Celestial Armor close to retirement for another point of AC and a bonus to Escape Artist is nothing special.

Yeah, I think I'd have to say that of the rules being discussed currently, this one seems the least "dangerous".

[ElyasRavenwood]

Michael Brock wrote:

Dwarven Plate has "nonmagical" listed under its aura. Therefore, it is named masterwork and could be upgraded.

These other items out of the Core Rulebook are also non magic, and therefore fall under the Named Masterwork armors:

Adamantine Breastplate
Dwarven Plate
Elven Chain
Mithral Shirt
Hellknight Armor

Darkwood Buckler
Darkwood Shield
Mithral Heavy Shield

I can understand how a Holy Avenger, a Sun Blade, a Plate armor of the Deep, or Breast plate of command, cannot be upgraded,

But Please Please, allow non magical masterwork things to be upgraded.

a +1 Mithril shirt is one of my favorite items. it fits so nicely on thieves um err rogues, rangers, Magi (fighter-mages) Inquisitors, and other lightly armored types.

a +1 Mithril shirt, which can be worn under clothing is invaluable, if you are in a situation where being fully armored isn't appropriate, or if you are a Paladin/ Cleric / Fighter / Chavalier, who is woken up in the middle of the night by a wandering monster, and has no time to don his normal medium or heavy armor- it gives him or her some protection.

well there we are.

[Caepio Alazario]

Quote:

Dwarven Plate has "nonmagical" listed under its aura. Therefore, it is named masterwork and could be upgraded.

These other items out of the Core Rulebook are also non magic, and therefore fall under the Named Masterwork armors:

...Mithral Shirt

Elyas, I understand from the quoted text from Mike that he isn't planning to keep you from enjoying that +1 Mithral Shirt (note my bolding of the quote above). Non-magical masterwork items could still receive enchantments.

[Michael Brock]

Caepio Alazario wrote:

Elyas, I understand from the quoted text from Mike that he isn't planning to keep you from enjoying that +1 Mithral Shirt (note my bolding of the quote above). Non-magical masterwork items could still receive enchantments.

+1. All non-magical masterwork items can be upgraded.

[james maissen]

Michael Brock wrote:

Caepio Alazario wrote:

Elyas, I understand from the quoted text from Mike that he isn't planning to keep you from enjoying that +1 Mithral Shirt (note my bolding of the quote above). Non-magical masterwork items could still receive enchantments.

+1. All non-magical masterwork items can be upgraded.

Again, why draw the line arbitrarily?

If the core rules give the pricing, it's a core rules item.

A 3rd Caster level scroll of magic missile, etc.

Meanwhile if the core rules require a DM adjudication (new magic items, researched spells) then, since the coordinator is the DM for PFS, it's not allowed until such time as something is directly published on it.

It would make writing the 'rule' in the guide very easy, and leave the only hurdle at knowing the rules of the game, which frankly should not be considered a hurdle but rather something of a core assumption.

-James

[hogarth]

james maissen wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

+1. All non-magical masterwork items can be upgraded.

Again, why draw the line arbitrarily?

If the core rules give the pricing, it's a core rules item.

Because some people honestly believe that the core rules give the pricing for a +5 suit of Rhino Hide mithral full plate and some people don't.

[james maissen]

hogarth wrote:

Because some people honestly believe that the core rules give the pricing for a +5 suit of Rhino Hide mithral full plate and some people don't.

Well...

james maissen wrote:

leave the only hurdle at knowing the rules of the game, which frankly should not be considered a hurdle but rather something of a core assumption.

-James

And this is something that the FAQ and these message boards can address to educate them.

But we shouldn't, say, curtail the grapple rules because people get them wrong.. rather we should teach people the grapple rules.. even if they've changed since 3.5!

-James

[Michael Brock]

james maissen wrote:

Again, why draw the line arbitrarily?

If the core rules give the pricing, it's a core rules item.

A 3rd Caster level scroll of magic missile, etc.

Meanwhile if the core rules require a DM adjudication (new magic items, researched spells) then, since the coordinator is the DM for PFS, it's not allowed until such time as something is directly published on it.

It would make writing the 'rule' in the guide very easy, and leave the only hurdle at knowing the rules of the game, which frankly should not be considered a hurdle but rather something of a core assumption.

-James

Minimum caster level consumables are a different topic and one I've been discussing with th Venture-Capains for two weeks. Please don't change the subject of this thread. That topic may be breached in it's own thread.

[hogarth]

james maissen wrote:

hogarth wrote:

Because some people honestly believe that the core rules give the pricing for a +5 suit of Rhino Hide mithral full plate and some people don't.

Well...

james maissen wrote:

leave the only hurdle at knowing the rules of the game, which frankly should not be considered a hurdle but rather something of a core assumption.

-James

And this is something that the FAQ and these message boards can address to educate them.

I agree that a FAQ entry saying "you can't upgrade a suit of Rhino Hide armor because the price is undefined" would fix the issue, but that sounds like an unlikely FAQ entry to me.

Asking people to sift through (contradictory) message board posts sounds like a non-starter to me.

[james maissen]

Michael Brock wrote:

Minimum caster level consumables are a different topic and one I've been discussing with th Venture-Capains for two weeks. Please don't change the subject of this thread. That topic may be breached in it's own thread.

Sorry, I didn't see it as a different issue. Mea culpa.

To me, I don't see a reason to limit access to any core rules items that PFS has not elected to outright ban.

A ring that gives both invisibility and protection +2 is a standard core rule magical item. The rules for such an item are clearly set up, as much as the core rules ability to further enchant a +1 longsword to a +2 holy longsword.

I don't see a reason for PFS to restrict such and it doesn't seem to be in keeping with how fame grants access.

But sorry for the bad example. I'll switch to the above mentioned ring if that's alright.

-James

[james maissen]

hogarth wrote:

I agree that a FAQ entry saying "you can't upgrade a suit of Rhino Hide armor because the price is undefined" would fix the issue, but that sounds like an unlikely FAQ entry to me.

If it's something that people get either the core rules or PFS rules wrong with a frequency then it seems a prototypical FAQ entry to me. In fact I'd go even further and say that's what the characterization of a FAQ entry SHOULD be.

hogarth wrote:

Asking people to sift through (contradictory) message board posts sounds like a non-starter to me.

Asking people to learn the core rules seems like a decent core assumption to me. Whether they learn it from the books, from friends at the table, from the FAQ or from the message boards is immaterial.

Limiting PFS options based on a level of possible ignorance amongst the player-base is not an acceptable reason to me. My response would be rather than take the time to make rules to cater to that ignorance, spend that time to educate and eradicate that ignorance.

-James

[ElyasRavenwood]

Caepio Alazario wrote:

Quote:

Dwarven Plate has "nonmagical" listed under its aura. Therefore, it is named masterwork and could be upgraded.

These other items out of the Core Rulebook are also non magic, and therefore fall under the Named Masterwork armors:

...Mithral Shirt

Elyas, I understand from the quoted text from Mike that he isn't planning to keep you from enjoying that +1 Mithral Shirt (note my bolding of the quote above). Non-magical masterwork items could still receive enchantments.

Caepio Alazario,, Michael Brock,

I’m relieved I get to keep my +1 mithril shirts. Thank you both for answering my post.
I just find them so handy for lightly armored types, and also for heavily armored types.

In a home Kingmaker game I’m playing in, I have a paladin of Iomedae. During the day he wears his Plate mail and shield. At night, when the party has made camp he sleeps in a +1 mithril shirt….. every so often we get attacked by pesky wandering monsters like were wolves, carrion crawlers, owl bears etc. Its nice to have a little bit of armor on while going into battle, especially if there is no time to don your plate mail.

Again, thanks for answering my post.

[Michael Brock]

Thanks for the feedback all. Open discussion here is done. I will take all points made here back to the Venture-Captain forum where we will put it all together and make a ruling that is best for the campaign.