Who makes saves?
This came up in a game a while back and I've been wondering if I made the right call.
Mount only since it's the one interacting with the ground?
Or do mount and rider both save separate? If the later, does the rider get dismounted if he fails and the mount makes it? The mount moves through difficult terrain, but the rider is entangled?
This was a gnome Oracle of Nature on a wolf companion, but I don't think that should matter in this case.
It's clear that both save for area effects, but for ground surface effects it seems that only the mount that's making the movement should be affected. Right?
Was this a dumb question? Or a common question? Is the answer more obvious than it seems?
Entangle as written:
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
The bold type could be interpreted to include the area above the ground, and thus being able to entangle a mounted rider.
I ruled that just the mount saved, but am curious how you'd rule.
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I'm inclined to rule that anyone moving through the affected area needs to make a save; mount & rider, both. This could indeed lead to the mount barreling his way through the mess with the rider getting snagged and left behind.
Alternatively, you could rule that the mount and rider both make it through, but enough of the vines remain attached to the rider to give him the entangled condition atop his mount.
In fact, that sounds like a better option to me; both roll their saves when moving through the area, if the rider fails his save, he needs to make a Ride check to stay mounted [DC equal to the spell's save DC]. If he succeeds on the Ride check, he remains mounted and leaves the area atop his trusty steed, but he's entangled in the saddle. Failing the Ride check would yank him off his mount into the entangle area, probably ending up entangled and prone to boot.
It seemed to me that it was meant to be a surface area spell and meant to impede movement. By having both creatures save, it seemed to overpower the spell against mounted riders. It's hard enough for most mounts to make a save at lower levels, but to require both rider and mount to save doubled the chances of failure.
Other spells that target reflex might cause damage to both if they fail. I get that. But to rip the rider from their mount, entangled, and add difficult terrain to those who did save to a massive area seemed a bit much for a level one spell.
I do like the idea of the rider remaining entangled even as the mount moves, but that seems to complicate the rules even more.
[edit: rereading the entangled condition, it likely wouldn't rip the rider from the mount. It would more likely slow both rider and mount to half speed and the rider would gain the entangled condition if the rider failed and mount didn't. Maybe a ride check is in order to stay mounted as Stockvillain suggested.]
The bold type leaves lots of different situations. I've often handled terrain and entangle via a circumstance modifier to the save or DC (same effect). This works pretty nicely for the tactically minded when the spell is cast on an area with areas of mixed plants.
That's an interesting twist. I like that. Similar to the text that I didn't bother including about thorns and brambles causing damage.
If the plants in the area are covered in thorns, those in the area take 1 point of damage each time they fail a save against the entangle or fail a check made to break free. Other effects, depending on the local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.
I guess the end of that leaves the effects open.
Wow. That's lethal to mounted riders.