I think sundering is fair game, but it is something that is only done sparingly.
Going after a wizard's spell book is fair game, just like sunder is, but if you can get the spell book then you can probably kill the caster so why bother just stealing. <--There is no question mark because I am not really asking a question.
As far as alignment I don't normally touch it unless you are really way off target. For the most part it does not matter anyway so why tell the rogue he is now LN instead of LG. In any event telling the player they are getting close to a change and discussing why is a much better option than a sudden change, IMHO.
NPC's should be given to the players unless they start to abuse them. Taking leadership does not mean you get to treat your female cohort as a prostitute and they have to accept it. This did not happen in my game, but another GM told me about it happening in his games.
Coup de grace is something I only use if the stat block calls for it or if it is the only reasonable option, and everyone knows it.
Attacking sleeping party members is a limited tactic for me also.
In the end none of these are inherently dick moves. Judge your group accordingly however.
For me, this is a situational thing. My main goal when sitting at a table is "get to the fun".
So, if a fellow PFS player is casting spells, swinging a longsword, and using a heavy shield, I might casually mention that requires three hands. Quietly, and not in a challenging way.
If they are curious, I'll show them the appropriate rules. If not, the game is not going to be improved by a 30 min argument.
Likewise, what's the situation? Are we arguing about how a -2 to an attack that hits either way against a kook? That's the time to let it go.
I run games where sundering can and does occur, particularly when the foe wields a hammer of some sort - particularly a maul. I also play with "Routine maintenance" for equipment...you've got to spend 2% to 3% of the book value of your equipment to keep it in tip top shape. Don't and your equipment becomes permanently worn, Continue and it becomes completely worthless. I don't do this to punish the players, more to show that your equipment requires some upkeep. Think Han Solo and the Millenium Falcon. The guy was one of the best Smugglers in the galaxy. Where'd his money go? That damned ship, that's where.
I have captured groups and tortured the wizards by turning the bones of their hands into powder and then balled into fists to heal AFTER burning the spellbook.
Coup de grace. Take'em or leave'em.
Attacks of Opportunity - pointless waste of time. I keep it simple. You get flanked, you suffer AOO. You retreat from an opponent, you get AOOed. Done.
Any and all NPCs are under the control of the GM. Doesn't matter if it's something gained through a class feature. It's a GM controlled creature.
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I run games where sundering can and does occur, particularly when the foe wields a hammer of some sort - particularly a maul. I also play with "Routine maintenance" for equipment...you've got to spend 2% to 3% of the book value of your equipment to keep it in tip top shape.
Meh. This sounds like annoying accounting, and would throw off the treasure and wealth by level guidelines
Also exactly what kind of oil do you sharpen a +5 shocking flaming sword with that it costs more than a small village?
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So yeah, druids and rangers, along with cavaliers, samurai, and even paladins are likely to have a bit of a more difficult time than they thought with their animal companion.
- Not if they get the handle animal skill up to a reasonable level, they can command their animal companion to do something it knows as a trick as a free action. The things they pointed out the animal not wanting to do (attack specific people) is what the tricks specifically let them do.
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Most of these things aren't 'dick' moves so much as a laundry list of tools GMs should use in moderation.
My players have learned to expect and prepare for night ambushes and my GM does it to us... often enough that the players are ready for it but not so often it's a major annoyance. GM always asks "who's keeping which watch" and the players take it seriously.
I don't use sunder much mostly because I think it's a poor tactic for an NPC unless it specializes in sundering and honestly I don't think that makes a ton of sense either. That said, I do wind up breaking character's gear in other ways and occasionally stealing an item or two.
Generally it just doesn't make a ton of sense to target a wizard's spellbook. They are usually tucked away unless they are actually using them. To destroy or steal a wizard's spellbook you have to have an NPC who sets out to do just that and that generally IS a pretty low tactic for a GM to take. I can see perhaps once in a campaign but ultimately it's just not something that makes a lot of sense.
Stealing/destroying a spellbook is a good way to get the Wizard to reroll a character.
And I presume you are going to rapidly replace that wealth by level you are destroying from sundering?
Wizard musta dumped his Wisdom to not have a backup plan. Cast an invisble arcane mark on it.
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Stealing/destroying a spellbook is a good way to get a poorly designed/played Wizard player to reroll a character.Stealing/destroying a spellbook is a good way to get the Wizard to reroll a character.
And I presume you are going to rapidly replace that wealth by level you are destroying from sundering?
What? Replacing spellbooks is a time consuming process (if not particularly expensive any more compared to wealth by level). When are you going to be able to do this in the middle of adventure? I guess it's quicker then since you will have lost most of your spells - you can only write the ones in to the new book that you have prepared and haven't cast - and then you are ineffective as a character because you've lost your ability to do anything in combat. Or, you can perhaps have created an extra 5 to deal with jerkass DMs while you were in town and have minimal other wealth. Of course, where would you keep them? If they were on you, they would be stolen or destroyed. If you kept them in town, you wouldn't have access to them during an adventure. If you could keep them on your party members to keep them safe, why couldn't you just have done that with the single one?
A well designed Wizard already has back up spellbooks and other risk mitigations so that getting a spellbook stolen/lost isn't such a great loss.
So an extra 4 spellbooks at 5th level is what? 2-3k gold? That's 20-30% of your wealth by level. And what risk mitigations are you going to have in case the spellbook is stolen? If it is stolen, your risk mitigation against getting it stolen has failed and you have to fall back on duplicate books - if you had time to make any. And what if it is destroyed? You anti-theft protections are useless then.
Wizard musta dumped his Wisdom to not have a backup plan. Cast an invisble arcane mark on it.
Which just helps you find it in a store unless you can cast 7th level spells. In which case, you can the only find out where it is located.
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How and why would an NPC go after a spellbook. This came up in another thread recently, and none of them made much sense. It is often easier to kill the wizard than steal the spellbook and escape alive, barring GM Fiat.
edit:changed since to sense
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Unless the Wizard really did take Wis as a dump stat, he's gonna know that he should make a back up spellbook before he loses his primary spellbook. He makes it before the adventure starts.
That excludes most adventure paths, so no destroying spellbooks outside home games.
And we are assuming of course that your home game has regular and extended periods of "in town" downtime between adventures.
The cost of a backup spell book (assuming average wisdom - that the backup is made before the primary is lost) is actually pretty dirt cheap.
No, it's not. And that's not taking into account spells NOT learned from leveling up.
At 5th level:
Let's save five 0 level spells (more likely 10) - 25gp
Eight 1st level spells (3+Int of 17+2 at level 2) - 40gp
Four 2nd level - 160gp
Two 3rd level - 180gp
Total: 420gp, 217 if he is duplicating it directly.
Sure, if you have one backup, that's a pittance, but how many do you need to be safe from jerkass DMs who are constantly trying to destroy it? Three? Five?
Let's say, most prudently, two main spellbooks and 2 traveling spellbooks (you are eventually going to need more because spells start spilling over with just normal spells learned, the example above is 27 pages by itself. Increase duplicates by 2 at every spill over)
The cost of that is (with pre-duplication) - 858gp.
Never mind any spells learned from scrolls or other spellbooks, that's just from leveling up. And underlearning 0th level.
If you IN FACT decide all 0th level spells are in your book, that's another 45 gold per book, so 180 gp for a new total of 1038. ~10% of character wealth at 5th level.
Let's just play a Sorcerer.
At 5th level, one backup is probably sufficient as the NPCs have the same kind of resources you do. They have to find that spellbook. Fifth level characters don't have a lot of resources to do that.
Like you admitted, 217gp isn't a lot.
But, like I said, if the player is a fool and mismanages his risk wrt his spellbook, it'll cost more.
The fact that a player is a fool doesn't make the GM a jerkass.
He has the same resources I do? That's 10k gold to spend on someone to destroy my traveling spellbook and find my main spellbook! Better have two of each!
Never mind that you will have to start duplicating them just from spell spillover.
That's what the wizard gets for copying spells from captured/looted enemy spellbooks then SELLING it as loot.
Honestly, you can't tell me that most wizard players never loot an enemy's spellbook?? Just from captured spellbooks alone a PC wizard should have 4-5 "backups" that can truely become backup spellbooks with a little gp and effort.
But the point of this thread is not spellbooks, but Sundering, and a wizard doesn't need to worry about a sundered spellbook, but rather a sundered spell component pouch. Or holy symbol if you are a cleric.
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But the point of this thread is not spellbooks, but Sundering, and a wizard doesn't need to worry about a sundered spellbook, but rather a sundered spell component pouch. Or holy symbol if you are a cleric.
This is why my dwarven druid grows mistletoe in his beard.
Another point toward Wizard Spellbooks, and backup weapons in general.
In general, backup items should not be taken into account in wealth by level. This is just like any other form of wealth that does not directly augment the player in combat(residences, works of art, etc) If you have a fighter that carries, a backup +1 heavy mace, but always uses a +3 flaming longsword, the +1 mace isn't part of his normal combat equipment, and should not be counted against his wealth by level. Likewise, a wizard's backup spellbooks should not be counted against his wealth by level, as their presence or absence does not effect the wizard's combat effectiveness as long as the wizard has their primary book. I also wouldn't count the +2 dagger that the wizard carries "just in case".
In general, the DM should be giving the players more loot than the wealth by level guidelines state. A players that focuses solely on enhancing their combat effectiveness with magic items is going to be more effective, but they are also going to have no backups if something goes wrong. They will have no expendable items and no backup equipment. They are choosing to put all their eggs in one basket.
All this comes down to a this. If my players are scraping by at 50% of wealth by level, and I decide to destroy half their equipment, I am being a dick. If my players are 50% over weapon by level, and I decide to take out a key item or 2 to bring them back in line, I am being a good DM.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sunder is a dick move no matter which side uses it (DM or PC).
I played in a campaign once with a sunder-focused monk. Let me get this straight - your strategy is to destroy the awesome weapons our opponents use (and which we could use after defeating them) to marginally decrease their effectiveness. Let me introduce you to an ability that does the same thing, but doesn't take a s$~$ on the party loot list: disarm.
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Sunder is a dick move no matter which side uses it (DM or PC).
I played in a campaign once with a sunder-focused monk. Let me get this straight - your strategy is to destroy the awesome weapons our opponents use (and which we could use after defeating them) to marginally decrease their effectiveness. Let me introduce you to an ability that does the same thing, but doesn't take a s+#% on the party loot list: disarm.
I agree, 99% of the time sunder just doesn't make sense as an in-combat maneuver. I can think of a few oddball corner cases but really it's just not something that makes a ton of sense.
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How and why would an NPC go after a spellbook. This came up in another thread recently, and none of them made much sense. It is often easier to kill the wizard than steal the spellbook and escape alive, barring GM Fiat.
GM decides to shaft the wizard player and has sends someone specifically to steal/ sunder the spellbook. It is much like sunder, something that screws over players vastly without making any sense as an NPC strategy. That is ultimately what makes it a 'dick' move.
As far as I'm concerned anything is fair game, destroying gear/ killing characters/ whatever so long as it makes sense in the game, but it's pretty rare that destroying spellbooks or sundering weapons just doesn't make sense.
That's what the wizard gets for copying spells from captured/looted enemy spellbooks then SELLING it as loot.
Honestly, you can't tell me that most wizard players never loot an enemy's spellbook?? Just from captured spellbooks alone a PC wizard should have 4-5 "backups" that can truely become backup spellbooks with a little gp and effort.
But the point of this thread is not spellbooks, but Sundering, and a wizard doesn't need to worry about a sundered spellbook, but rather a sundered spell component pouch. Or holy symbol if you are a cleric.
So you sunder a spell component pouch. You now have infinite spell components on the ground. And a holy symbol. Ok, I hold the two halves of my broken holy symbol together and use my Divine Focus pre-req abilities.
Is that how you design your major enemies? As singly focused on taking out the party and not as 3 dimensional characters who have lives outside of taking down the party?He has the same resources I do? That's 10k gold to spend on someone to destroy my traveling spellbook and find my main spellbook! Better have two of each!
Never mind that you will have to start duplicating them just from spell spillover.
I don't know, you tell me? You are the one where the enemies devote resources and time to specifically destroying or stealing a spellbook.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Make Whole restores a sundered item with its magical powers intact.Sunder is a dick move no matter which side uses it (DM or PC).
I played in a campaign once with a sunder-focused monk. Let me get this straight - your strategy is to destroy the awesome weapons our opponents use (and which we could use after defeating them) to marginally decrease their effectiveness. Let me introduce you to an ability that does the same thing, but doesn't take a s@~! on the party loot list: disarm.
Okay, but disarm still achieves substantially the same effect, is quicker (one successful disarm roll v. multiple successful sunder rolls until item hp depleted), and doesn't require a 2nd level spell to be cast.
Plus, this was 3.5, and Make Whole didn't exist, and any evidence to the contrary is the result of a vast conspiracy.
Make Whole restores a sundered item with its magical powers intact.Sunder is a dick move no matter which side uses it (DM or PC).
I played in a campaign once with a sunder-focused monk. Let me get this straight - your strategy is to destroy the awesome weapons our opponents use (and which we could use after defeating them) to marginally decrease their effectiveness. Let me introduce you to an ability that does the same thing, but doesn't take a s@~! on the party loot list: disarm.
If your caster level is twice that of the item. So to Make Whole a +1 Longsword, you need to be 6th level. Great.
Stealing a spellbook requires only a good sleight of hand roll (and maybe a disarm traps). Killing the wizard involves combat.How and why would an NPC go after a spellbook. This came up in another thread recently, and none of them made much sense. It is often easier to kill the wizard than steal the spellbook and escape alive, barring GM Fiat.GM decides to shaft the wizard player and has sends someone specifically to steal/ sunder the spellbook. It is much like sunder, something that screws over players vastly without making any sense as an NPC strategy. That is ultimately what makes it a 'dick' move.
As far as I'm concerned anything is fair game, destroying gear/ killing characters/ whatever so long as it makes sense in the game, but it's pretty rare that destroying spellbooks or sundering weapons just doesn't make sense.
Please extrapolate on how you intend to "Sleight of Hand" a several pound spellbook out of Wizard's pack. Oh, while simultaneously disarming magical traps on it.
If you say "Steal," please extrapolate on how you intend to use Steal on a several pound book in a Wizard's pack.
There are some feats which grant the sunderer extra benies (rounds of rage in one case) in return for sundering stuff.Make Whole restores a sundered item with its magical powers intact.Sunder is a dick move no matter which side uses it (DM or PC).
I played in a campaign once with a sunder-focused monk. Let me get this straight - your strategy is to destroy the awesome weapons our opponents use (and which we could use after defeating them) to marginally decrease their effectiveness. Let me introduce you to an ability that does the same thing, but doesn't take a s@~! on the party loot list: disarm.
Okay, but disarm still achieves substantially the same effect, is quicker (one successful disarm roll v. multiple successful sunder rolls until item hp depleted), and doesn't require a 2nd level spell to be cast.
Plus, this was 3.5, and Make Whole didn't exist, and any evidence to the contrary is the result of a vast conspiracy.
Can't you just take "Extra Rage?"
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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There are some feats which grant the sunderer extra benies (rounds of rage in one case) in return for sundering stuff.Make Whole restores a sundered item with its magical powers intact.Sunder is a dick move no matter which side uses it (DM or PC).
I played in a campaign once with a sunder-focused monk. Let me get this straight - your strategy is to destroy the awesome weapons our opponents use (and which we could use after defeating them) to marginally decrease their effectiveness. Let me introduce you to an ability that does the same thing, but doesn't take a s@~! on the party loot list: disarm.
Okay, but disarm still achieves substantially the same effect, is quicker (one successful disarm roll v. multiple successful sunder rolls until item hp depleted), and doesn't require a 2nd level spell to be cast.
Plus, this was 3.5, and Make Whole didn't exist, and any evidence to the contrary is the result of a vast conspiracy.
And I'm sure in some elaborately constructed corner case, those benies are of more value than being effective a few rounds earlier and not wasting 2nd level spells.
Or, you could just, y'know, use the feat spent on sunder to obtain extra rage (or whatever it's called these days) and have extra rounds of rage that aren't contingent upon taking extra time disarming an opponent and extra spells fixing the damage you've caused.
How and why would an NPC go after a spellbook. This came up in another thread recently, and none of them made much sense. It is often easier to kill the wizard than steal the spellbook and escape alive, barring GM Fiat.GM decides to shaft the wizard player and has sends someone specifically to steal/ sunder the spellbook. It is much like sunder, something that screws over players vastly without making any sense as an NPC strategy. That is ultimately what makes it a 'dick' move.
As far as I'm concerned anything is fair game, destroying gear/ killing characters/ whatever so long as it makes sense in the game, but it's pretty rare that destroying spellbooks or sundering weapons just doesn't make sense.
Stealing a spellbook requires only a good sleight of hand roll (and maybe a disarm traps). Killing the wizard involves combat.
Its much less risky to just attempt the sleight of hand roll.
Since when does Sleight of hand allows to reach inside of a backpack without anyone knowing? Not only would you have to reach inside the backpack you would have to fidget around and pick the spellbook out.
So you sunder a spell component pouch. You now have infinite spell components on the ground. And a holy symbol. Ok, I hold the two halves of my broken holy symbol together and use my Divine Focus pre-req abilities.
Really? That's the tack you want to take in this? That you can just hold two halves of a broken item back together and it still works?
Even in your out-of-left-field interpretation of sunder (nowhere does it say a sundered item is in only two pieces), the maneuver is still useful (takes two hands to hold that holy symbol together, so drop your weapon(s)/shield; spell components all over the ground means you can't move from that spot and still cast, and picking up that bat guano will draw an AoO).
Really, I expected better. My mistake.
No, you want the improved sunder as a barbarian to keep from provoking when you spell sunder. And for the +2.
Greater Sunder is probably just greedy though.
If your caster level is twice that of the item. So to Make Whole a +1 Longsword, you need to be 6th level. Great.So..?
So it's comparatively useless for doing anything but restoring loot to sell, and maybe not even then. Next question.
Can't you just take "Extra Rage?"That only gives you six extra rounds of rage.
And where do you get more rage for sundering?