During our friday night sessions, the players using a wizard or cleric class would often spend a long time at the start of the night just selecting their spells. This became an immense headache at higher level, so I've come up with these alternative rules to eliminate that impediment, and reduce bookkeeping. Basically, slightly less spells-per-day to cast, but they can cast anything they know in their spellbook. It doesn't clash with sorcerers, who get a lot more castings per day, with fewer choices.
This is highly experimental, but we've had one session thus far using these rules and it seemed to work well (certainly the spellcaster was grateful for less bookkeeping!)
The spells-per-day may seem a lot more limited, but with the flexibility you get, it seems like a fair trade. I seek your thoughts on this matter!
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I don't think it's a terrible idea, in some ways I kind of like it because it encourages the wizard with great power, but who is frugal with hit. However on the flip side, it does seem to encourage the 15 minute adventuring day even more. Also I'm not sure about divine casters having such wide spell access, I think it might be better to give them a spellbook like mechanics (make them learn the appropriate rites), but give them a slightly increased number of cast per day to make up for the slots they have to give over to patching up other people in all the various ways that they have to.
However on the flip side, it does seem to encourage the 15 minute adventuring day even more. Also I'm not sure about divine casters having such wide spell access...
What is this 15 minute adventuring day of which you speak?
And yes, I have a concern about clerics being able to spontaneously cast any spell they want, but they get less than they used to, so need to be frugal. Also, I've house-ruled that clerics start with only light armour proficiency, so they're a little less powerful in that respect. Just starting a new group this friday, not sure if anyone is taking a cleric to test out yet.
It really isn't a bad idea, how would you do more then one spell book however? If you have enough spells known to fill two books but only carry one with you. Do you take a hit to those spells not in your book?
Also have you thought of making druids cast like sorcerers and being limited to spells known and clerics having prayer books like a wizard spell book?
Over all I like it.
It really isn't a bad idea, how would you do more then one spell book however?
Good question; I suppose if the spellcaster is only carrying one book with them, they need to choose which spells to take, and the rest he cannot cast. I might have to put more thought into that one, but yeah, if he can't read the spells every day, he shouldn't get them most likely.
Also have you thought of making druids cast like sorcerers and being limited to spells known and clerics having prayer books like a wizard spell book?
I like both of these ideas! That brings a certain order to the system - spontaneous cast, or have your spells in a book. I shall investigate this :)
Since the 1980s any wizards I've played and any wizards I've DMed always had to have both a regular spell book (or collection of them) and a traveling spell book.
While out on adventure, only the spells in the traveling book were available.
Of course, when the wizard got to a high enough level, he would just have some way to store a lot more books in a portable hole or some kind of ethereal chest or something, but, for the middle levels, the traveling spell book was a handy restriction.
A variation I thought off but haven't play tested yet, perhaps you can get some use out off it :
I changed the wizard/sorcerer to function more like variations of the same class, not expending spells cast but only the spell slots per day, and making them slightly more MAD since they have use for both intelligence (knowledge, memory) and charisma (Mana).
Sorcerers have earlier access to spells, using the same table as the wizard does for spells known and adding +1 to that for every spell level to get spells per day, getting bonus spells known per their intelligence, still using charisma as their primary casting stat for bonus spells and DC. This will end up being a sorcerer with slightly less castings per day, but more spells known with a modest investment in intelligence and earlier access to spells.
Wizards functioning like normal, using intelligence as their primary casting stat but spells cast are not expended, only burning through daily uses. Instead of using intelligence for bonus spells this variation uses charisma, though intelligence still determines how many spells the wizard can keep in memory at once. Metamagic does not take a full round action to cast for a wizard even though it is a spontaneous caster (this replaces scribe scroll in my campaign). Replacing spells in memory will take an hour spent studying his spellbook per spell, never allowing for more than 10 spell levels to be replaced per day. This will end up with a wizard having some less spells per day, since charisma will typically not be as high as intelligence and less flexibility in adjusting the spells in memory but being more flexible with the spells he does have in memory because they don't get wiped after casting, metamagic can improve on that flexibility further. Arcane Bonded Item will be a major boon.
* specialist wizards need to memorize at least 1 spell every spell level of their specialty school and metamagic using spells not of their specialty school takes a full round action to cast. Opposition school spells can be cast normally but take 2 'spells known' slots rather than 1. Spells of their specialty school are cast at +1 caster level and DC increasing to +2 at level 11, in this variant specialists do not get more castable spells, but they do still get different class based powers and more expertise with their school's spells in exchange for decreased versatility.
One Feat Change to consider and One New Feat to consider with this system :
* Spell Mastery increases intelligence score by 2 for purposes of spells known (or kept in memory in the case of the wizard).
* Improved Item Bond, allows an additional casting of a spell from your spellbook per day.
While out on adventure, only the spells in the traveling book were available.
Yeah I'm leaning towards this, so I'll probably adjust the rule so that a wizard can only cast the spells he's studied that day. A simple solution :)
stuff
An interesting approach, though a little more complex that I wanted for my home game :)
stuffAn interesting approach, though a little more complex that I wanted for my home game :)
Agreed, I do not like wizards much and would have gone with just the alterations to the sorcerer, from that grew the wizard as sorcerer 'archetype'.
Not the complexity that bothers me even it is just that my players got used to the old way, and this might be a bit too different, I do see merrit in the idea it is the implementation I am worried about.
Do I read this correctly, that clerics and druids cast spontaneously from their entire list, and that a wizard could theoretically cast their entire list provided they get every spell into one spellbook? Because that sounds insane to me.
Well, he did say it is 'highly experimental'.
I would suggest if you limit this to one book, blessed books and secret page have to go. As does anything allowing more pages or spells in a single book. As with those you just opened up insanity with allowing everything.
In my home games I do require clerics to have a book and only my cast spells from said book. Druids I have made spontaneous caster with spells known. Sure it makes them gain spells later, but they are strong enough as is so it does little harm.
I have used Druids having to make tattoos to druids having to have a "rune tree" much like a spell book. I have never been happy with "you know your whole list"
Do I read this correctly, that clerics and druids cast spontaneously from their entire list, and that a wizard could theoretically cast their entire list provided they get every spell into one spellbook? Because that sounds insane to me.
Yes they can do it, but they can't cast as many spells as they can now, if you check the 'spells per day' progression. They must choose what they cast with more care. Having said that, I think the cleric needs to work like the wizard now to prevent it being overpowered i.e. carry a 'prayer book' to scribe spells (prayers) in.
And I've only had one session where a player was using this system, and it didn't seem overpowered at all. She had to choose very carefully what she cast, and the spells she did cast were most fairly common ones, like heal, dispel magic, lesser restoration etc. And not having to spend 30 minutes at the start of the game writing down the spells for the day was a boon for the entire group ;)
I would suggest if you limit this to one book, blessed books and secret page have to go. As does anything allowing more pages or spells in a single book. As with those you just opened up insanity with allowing everything. I have used Druids having to make tattoos to druids having to have a "rune tree" much like a spell book. I have never been happy with "you know your whole list"
I concur, so I'll be turning druids into sorcs, and enforcing spellbooks for clerics and wizards. It'll be less insane then :P
I concur, so I'll be turning druids into sorcs, and enforcing spellbooks for clerics and wizards. It'll be less insane then :P
I've though about this before, but a lot of the spells that seem very druid like in flavor are kind of situational.
It would take a little work, but something I've considered before is dividing the druid spell list in two. Some spells would become natural abilities of the druid, and other would become ones they could prep. In a way make them the inverse of the witch. More spontaneous abilities (like hexes) and fewer prepared spells.
For your purposes, you could make them spontaneous, but separate out some of the more iconic but situational spells and make them rituals that could be learned, but only able to be performed like once per day per spell level.
It would take a little work, but something I've considered before is dividing the druid spell list in two. Some spells would become natural abilities of the druid, and other would become ones they could prep. In a way make them the inverse of the witch. More spontaneous abilities (like hexes) and fewer prepared spells.
Yeah, a fair bit of work there, but I had the same thought regarding the limitations of restricting druid spell selection. They're not exactly overpowered to begin with... I'll put some thought into it.
Oh, and as for wizard's and spellbooks, they're only 3lb. each, so I don't have a problem with wizards toting around multiple books, so long as they have a way of carrying them. If they end up being able to cast every spell, so be it, they're still restricted in castings per day, so I reckon it'll work.
I love the cleric's 'prayer book' too, making it match the wizard in that respect, and it seems to be a popular idea with my group so far :) After all, priests are all about the 'good book', as it were, so this makes more sense to me.
Just had a thought about druids: How about letting them get their wisdom bonus applied to the sorc's 'spells known' table, thus giving them a bonus spell at each level. Gives them more diversity, certainly. I don't see any of my crew playing a druid anytime soon, so I'll jump this hurdle down the road a bit ;)
Do I read this correctly, that clerics and druids cast spontaneously from their entire list, and that a wizard could theoretically cast their entire list provided they get every spell into one spellbook? Because that sounds insane to me.Yes they can do it, but they can't cast as many spells as they can now, if you check the 'spells per day' progression. They must choose what they cast with more care.
I think I would agree with TOZ, this seems pretty powerful. Looking at your chart, most of the time they're only casting one fewer spell per spell level, but in return they get extreme flexibility. They'll still have enough spells to cast a spell every round, at least three fights a day. On top of that they can pick the perfect spell (provided it's in the book) for the situation so there are no wasted spell slots (a common problem for wizards since they can't spontaneous convert them into something else ala cleric/druid).
This would make sorcerers pretty useless outside of niche builds that serve a powerful theme (a pyro-mancer or something).
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One of the balancing features of preparation casters is, I'm told, that they have to guess what spells they will need for a day. This houserule takes that out of the equation completely for clerics and druids, insuring they will ALWAYS have the right spell for the occasion.
It will work with certain players, but others will blow the doors off your game with it.
One of the balancing features of preparation casters is, I'm told, that they have to guess what spells they will need for a day. This houserule takes that out of the equation completely for clerics and druids, insuring they will ALWAYS have the right spell for the occasion.
Okay I've come up with the solution:
Clerics keep a spellbook, and work just like wizards do. They still get to cast anything they like from their known spells, but they have to know it, and read their spell book every day (I call it a book of scripture). Clerics also start with only light armour proficiency, so they can't just jump easily into full plate with one feat.
Druids work like sorcerers, following their spell tables, and they also get to choose one of the available domains. If they choose not to have an animal companion, they get two domains. This provides them with some extra diversity of spells.
Thoughts? And yes, I'm hell-bent on removing that preparation time at the start of a session :P
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That sounds more reasonable to me. Since prepared casters can eventually beat spontaneous casters in spells known by a huge margin, I recommend increasing spontaneous casters spells per day a bit more. Then you have the option of having the right spell for the job more often verses being able to cast your signature spells more often. Effectiveness versus stamina, I suppose.
One of the balancing features of preparation casters is, I'm told, that they have to guess what spells they will need for a day. This houserule takes that out of the equation completely for clerics and druids, insuring they will ALWAYS have the right spell for the occasion.Okay I've come up with the solution:
Clerics keep a spellbook, and work just like wizards do. They still get to cast anything they like from their known spells, but they have to know it, and read their spell book every day (I call it a book of scripture). Clerics also start with only light armour proficiency, so they can't just jump easily into full plate with one feat.
Druids work like sorcerers, following their spell tables, and they also get to choose one of the available domains. If they choose not to have an animal companion, they get two domains. This provides them with some extra diversity of spells.
Thoughts? And yes, I'm hell-bent on removing that preparation time at the start of a session :P
Alot of spells are highly situational but because of that also tend to be more powerful, a druid has quite a few spells that do not see regular use.
Maybe you could allow a single spell per level to be memorized normally instead of an extra domain ?
That sounds more reasonable to me. Since prepared casters can eventually beat spontaneous casters in spells known by a huge margin, I recommend increasing spontaneous casters spells per day a bit more. Then you have the option of having the right spell for the job more often verses being able to cast your signature spells more often. Effectiveness versus stamina, I suppose.
I was thinking that myself :)
+1 for every spell level sounds fine to me, to widen the margin between them. I don't think that's OP because what can a sorc achieve with 6 disintegrates that they couldn't do with 5 ;)
Alot of spells are highly situational but because of that also tend to be more powerful, a druid has quite a few spells that do not see regular use.
Maybe you could allow a single spell per level to be memorized normally instead of an extra domain ?
That was my original idea, but then I saw that the domain spells that druids get are kind of appropriate anyway. Still, getting to choose your own extra spell isn't a bad thing, considering that as you say, druid spells are rather specialized. It shall be so!
Just updated the web page/MS word file to reflect these changes. See what you think.