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According to the Ninja Assassinate ability the target must be denied their Dexterity modifier for it to work. Now a Barbarian with Uncanny Dodge (or anyone else) never loses their Dexterity modifier even against invisible targets and only does if they are immoblizied.
So does that mean Ninja cannot Assassinate Barbarians period?
Man Avenger would be rolling in his grave if he couldn't assassinate Olvar the Chaos Bringer.
Thanks in advance.
Reebo
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The ninja does not have to be the one feinting.He could still be feinted.But wouldn't that break the Assassinate attempt if you perform a different action?
Thematically that doesn't work, a ninja bringing his buddy along to yell out "Look over there!" lol.
I think we just have to take it as RAW - Barbarians are immune to Assassination unless immoblizied. I guess the Ninja could poison the Barbarian first then take their time with the assassination.
Barbarians are thought of being "primal", having animalistic instincts and stuff. Picture the ninja sneaking from behind when the barbarian suddenly, instinctively growls and turns around
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The ninja does not have to be the one feinting.
Feint text...
'If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).' (core book, page 201; emphasis mine).
... So unless there's some Feat or something which allows you to Feint for other people, and the Ninja two-man insertion team happens to have it, then no, you can't get your buddy to Feint for you.
Luckily for Ninjas everywhere, lots of Barbarian players throw caution to the wind and take archetypes which remove their Uncanny Dodge Class Feature (Invulnerable Rager I'm looking at you...).
Ninjas are weak against Barbarians. You wouldn't see Conan going down that easy. He'd just take the hit and then rip the ninja's head off.
Seriously though, some classes get protect against that kind of thing. It's nothing really new. Assassins and rogues have been dealing with it for years.
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The ninja does not have to be the one feinting.Feint text...
'If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).' (core book, page 201; emphasis mine).
... So unless there's some Feat or something which allows you to Feint for other people, and the Ninja two-man insertion team happens to have it, then no, you can't get your buddy to Feint for you.
Luckily for Ninjas everywhere, lots of Barbarian players throw caution to the wind and take archetypes which remove their Uncanny Dodge Class Feature (Invulnerable Rager I'm looking at you...).
Such a feat does indeed exist in the core rules:
Greater Feint (Combat)You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
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Oh no. A class is immune to something another class does. We must fix this. It is a sin against God. Rar rar.
TOZ if I could give out awards for posts of the year this one would get a gold star.
Uncanny dodge is good. It's not that good.
No, its SOOOO good its ...UNCANNY!. :p
If I remember the story correctly a ninja assassinated his target in Japan by hiding in the cesspool of an outhouse for several days.
Supposedly he killed his target by jabbing up with a spear when the guy was doing his business.
If Conan can sit down on an outhouse's seat, assume the thinkers position, and somehow still be immune to a death attack...
Just bogus is what I say.
Uncanny dodge is good. It's not that good.
It's one of those special situations where you would ask the GM for a ruling (cause you know it's their job to give an impartial decision on unusual circumstances).
If I was GMing and the Barbarian was sitting on his throne wrestling with an issue, and a Ninja was underneath him with a long pointy stick ready to plug his gap the poor old barbarian would not get the uncanny dodge.
If I remember the story correctly a ninja assassinated his target in Japan by hiding in the cesspool of an outhouse for several days.
Supposedly he killed his target by jabbing up with a spear when the guy was doing his business.
If Conan can sit down on an outhouse's seat, assume the thinkers position, and somehow still be immune to a death attack...
Just bogus is what I say.
Uncanny dodge is good. It's not that good.
Barbarians that aren't expecting something to jump out and kill them don't survive long in the wilds. Besides, that assumes that a Barbarian would use something as civilized as an outhouse. ;)
If I was GMing and the Barbarian was sitting on his throne wrestling with an issue, and a Ninja was underneath him with a long pointy stick ready to plug his gap the poor old barbarian would not get the uncanny dodge.
If he doesn't get it then, why should he get it against invisible opponents? The idea is he realizes the attack at the last moment (air movement, drop of *cough* water falling off the spear, etc) and throws himself out of the way.
He could still be feinted.But wouldn't that break the Assassinate attempt if you perform a different action?
As a GM I would rule that the feint can be part of the assassination attempt if attempted in the same round (such as with improved feint). Its a pretty fair way to counter something like uncanny dodge.
People are upset the class that is defined as "hard as *%&$&% to kill with an axe" is hard to kill with a dagger?
People are upset the class that is defined as "hard as *%&$&% to kill with an axe" is hard to kill with a dagger?
Its not just hard to kill, its a flat out immunity to assassination via surprise. As awesome as barbarians (and other rogues) are, I am not sure they warrant that immunity totally.
If he doesn't get it then, why should he get it against invisible opponents? The idea is he realizes the attack at the last moment (air movement, drop of *cough* water falling off the spear, etc) and throws himself out of the way.
If I was GMing and the Barbarian was sitting on his throne wrestling with an issue, and a Ninja was underneath him with a long pointy stick ready to plug his gap the poor old barbarian would not get the uncanny dodge.
I was thinking he may be restrained by the confines of his surroundings and as he is sitting with his furry loincloth around his ankles, I'm kinda thinking he is very flat footed unless it was one of those ones that makes you curl your toes.
You have NO idea how hard it is to swear off of sarcasm. Sometimes you just can't help yourself.
I agree with your post it summed up what I was thinking exactly.
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People are upset the class that is defined as "hard as *%&$&% to kill with an axe" is hard to kill with a dagger?Its not just hard to kill, its a flat out immunity to assassination via surprise. As awesome as barbarians (and other rogues) are, I am not sure they warrant that immunity totally.
Uncanny dodge can be surpassed by a rogue/ninja of 4 levels higher I believe, so you aren't immune, your assassin just has to be really really good at his job.
As for the out house scenario, I think it is the Ninja who is subject to the death effect if he is hiding out under a barbarian who is popping a squat.
People are upset the class that is defined as "hard as *%&$&% to kill with an axe" is hard to kill with a dagger?Its not just hard to kill, its a flat out immunity to assassination via surprise. As awesome as barbarians (and other rogues) are, I am not sure they warrant that immunity totally.Uncanny dodge can be surpassed by a rogue/ninja of 4 levels higher I believe, so you aren't immune, your assassin just has to be really really good at his job.
As for the out house scenario, I think it is the Ninja who is subject to the death effect if he is hiding out under a barbarian who is popping a squat.
What you are referring to is Improved Uncanny Dodge, which covers immunity to flanking. Assassination abilities work off of a sneak attack via surprise. The target cannot know that the assassin is going to attack him, or it foils the assassination attempt. Since vanilla Uncanny Dodge means the barbarian cannot be caught flat-footed or loose their dexterity bonus to AC from an invisible attacker, that eliminates sneak attack via surprise.
The problem here appears to be that the OP understands Ninjas, but does not understand Barbarians. OP, I recommend taking a Barbarian for a spin.
I was thinking he may be restrained by the confines of his surroundings and as he is sitting with his furry loincloth around his ankles, I'm kinda thinking he is very flat footed unless it was one of those ones that makes you curl your toes.If he doesn't get it then, why should he get it against invisible opponents? The idea is he realizes the attack at the last moment (air movement, drop of *cough* water falling off the spear, etc) and throws himself out of the way.
If I was GMing and the Barbarian was sitting on his throne wrestling with an issue, and a Ninja was underneath him with a long pointy stick ready to plug his gap the poor old barbarian would not get the uncanny dodge.
Again, that makes a lot of situations difficult. For example, what if he's at home and getting dress? Or eating a meal? Or in a conversation, heated or not? Does this mean that he doesn't get it if attacked by an invisible opponent in those situations?
For the "Pot" example, all he has to do is throw himself forward and off of it. The whole point of the class feature is that he gets a last second warning and reacts, regardless of whether he's concentrating or not. So unless you declare that all characters using the bathroom are considered helpless and pinned...
Just stick the Barb while they are asleep. That is a helpless situation and if the assasin doesn't suck they should be able to get in there unnoticed. But in a live combat, both parties awake and alert, then the assasin is hosed.
Such a feat does indeed exist in the core rules:
Greater Feint (Combat)(etc.)
You don't even need Greater Feint, just Improved Feint. Study the target as your standard action, feint as a move action, assassinate next round.
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In reply to the "as a DM, I'd say no uncanny dodge here": that's being a bit petty. If you want to assassinate the barbarian, wait until they're asleep and have the guy hit him with a poisoned x4 critical weapon as a coup-de-grace. You don't have to pull your "remove key class ability because I don't like it" stuff here.
Yes. Barbarian is immune to being sneak attacked via surprise. That's kinda their deal. You know who else is immune to that? The assassin themselves! (Rogues get uncanny at 4th level).
If the assassin wants to kill Mr. Uncanny Dodge they can use other tricks: ingested poisons, coup-de-grace, etc. Sneak attack is NOT required to assassinate, it just helps.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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If I remember the story correctly a ninja assassinated his target in Japan by hiding in the cesspool of an outhouse for several days.
Supposedly he killed his target by jabbing up with a spear when the guy was doing his business.
If Conan can sit down on an outhouse's seat, assume the thinkers position, and somehow still be immune to a death attack...
Just bogus is what I say.
Uncanny dodge is good. It's not that good.
What self-respecting barbarian would use an outhouse? In any case. you're not talking about a "barbarian" at this point. Your talking about Conan. Conan is immune to attacks from anywhere, including the outhouse. He is Conan, the Chuck Norris of fantasy literature.
Surely a barbarian can be assassinated by a ninja. Traps, ambushes, poisons, a coup de grace - anything but the assassinate special ability (unless immobilized).
I was thinking he may be restrained by the confines of his surroundings and as he is sitting with his furry loincloth around his ankles, I'm kinda thinking he is very flat footed unless it was one of those ones that makes you curl your toes.If he doesn't get it then, why should he get it against invisible opponents? The idea is he realizes the attack at the last moment (air movement, drop of *cough* water falling off the spear, etc) and throws himself out of the way.
If I was GMing and the Barbarian was sitting on his throne wrestling with an issue, and a Ninja was underneath him with a long pointy stick ready to plug his gap the poor old barbarian would not get the uncanny dodge.Again, that makes a lot of situations difficult. For example, what if he's at home and getting dress? Or eating a meal? Or in a conversation, heated or not? Does this mean that he doesn't get it if attacked by an invisible opponent in those situations?
For the "Pot" example, all he has to do is throw himself forward and off of it. The whole point of the class feature is that he gets a last second warning and reacts, regardless of whether he's concentrating or not. So unless you declare that all characters using the bathroom are considered helpless and pinned...
A GMs job is to interpret the environment and make impartial judgements accordingly.
In my game not yours... if a barbarian or rogue were sitting in a 3x3x8 foot box squatting over a hole with their pants around their ankles presenting their "chocolate starfish" as a target. Then as the GM I would say the chances of uncanny dodge for an NPC would not work. PCs on the other hand I will always give the advantage too but that is the way my game works and if the players are having fun than I have won.
Same situation in the woods sans "Thunderbox" more than likely the Ninja would die a horrible messy take the corpse to the dry-cleaners death.
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Pants around your ankles has precedent as being "entangled", not "immobilized." (See the Dirty Trick combat maneuver's description.) You lose uncanny dodge via the latter, not the former.
As both a player and a DM I find it very upsetting when a DM rules that your ability doesn't apply because they "feel" that it would be hard to move around. I'm sorry, but that's still not immobile. The main reason I find this upsetting is that it basically ruins the fun of part of the character. Uncanny dodge is supposed to be uncanny, not sorta-good.
A more RAW argument: Immobile is pinned, tied up, unconscious, paralyzed, etc. Not "pants around ankles." Note that entangled DOES apply a penalty to dex (and thus AC) and that should be plenty to represent the partial loss in mobility.
I think an issue is that people think of the barbarian as just a "big dumb berserker". He's so much more - he's an instinctual predator that knows on a subconscious level what's happening before it happens.
You wouldn't see this discussion if he was a monk, right? Monks get their abilities from understanding themselves - barbarians get it from just being themselves. A barbarian is to a monk what a sorcerer is to a wizard, and you shouldn't deprive him of his special ability to anticipate danger just because he wears a dress.
EDIT: When houseruling stuff, I generally look at offensive and defensive abilities differently. If something is overpowering offensively, I houserule it quite quickly because it can take over the game very fast. If something is overpowering defensively, it's not as dangerous because the worst thing that could happen is that someone survives. Which isn't a big deal most of the time. If something is circumstantially good defensively, like in this case, there's no reason to change the rules. The assassin can do his stuff, he just has to do it differently.
Surely a barbarian can be assassinated by a ninja. Traps, ambushes, poisons, a coup de grace - anything but the assassinate special ability (unless immobilized).
Why is it so many of you seem to forget Improved Feint?? A few have mentioned it, but seems to get over looked.
If I'm a Ninja, or Rogue focused on assassination, or I have the Assassin PrC, there is no chance in the Nine Hells, I am not taking that feat, along with it's greater version.
Hence, Mr Uncanny Dodge will go down via my assassination, whether he likes it or not.
Sorry about your damn luck.
Uncanny dodge is uncanny dodge.
Barbarians have something which is equivalent to spider sense.
Cry about it.
Please.
So I can laugh.
Uncanny dodge is good. It's not that good.No, its SOOOO good its ...UNCANNY!. :p
Yeeeeeeeeaaaaahhhhhh
If Conan can sit down on an outhouse's seat, assume the thinkers position, and somehow still be immune to a death attack...
Forget abs of steel, his sphincter is adamantium. Exit. Only.
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NINJA AM FLIP OUT AND KILL PEOPLE.
BARBARIAN AM BELIEVER IN CUSTOMER SERVICE, BARBARIAN CUT OUT MIDDLEMAN AND BRING KILL TO YOU IN HALF TIME.
CLEARLY, BARBARIAN AM BETTER THAN NINJA ALWAYS. ASSASSINATION AM INCLUDED. QUESTION AM RESOLVED.
The ninja does not have to be the one feinting.Feint text...
'If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).' (core book, page 201; emphasis mine).
... So unless there's some Feat or something which allows you to Feint for other people, and the Ninja two-man insertion team happens to have it, then no, you can't get your buddy to Feint for you.
Luckily for Ninjas everywhere, lots of Barbarian players throw caution to the wind and take archetypes which remove their Uncanny Dodge Class Feature (Invulnerable Rager I'm looking at you...).
Read the teamwork feats from UC. There's teamwork feinting and AoO's. Also, not all assassins work alone...
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NINJA AM FLIP OUT AND KILL PEOPLE.
BARBARIAN AM BELIEVER IN CUSTOMER SERVICE, BARBARIAN CUT OUT MIDDLEMAN AND BRING KILL TO YOU IN HALF TIME.
CLEARLY, BARBARIAN AM BETTER THAN NINJA ALWAYS. ASSASSINATION AM INCLUDED. QUESTION AM RESOLVED.
I'll just wait until you're sleeping and coup-de-grace you for 11d6 damage. Can you make a DC 48 fort save? If you seem tough I might bring a scythe to up that to DC 65.
(Remember: Unconscious people are immobile. Sneak attack away!)
Pants around your ankles has precedent as being "entangled", not "immobilized." (See the Dirty Trick combat maneuver's description.) You lose uncanny dodge via the latter, not the former.
As both a player and a DM I find it very upsetting when a DM rules that your ability doesn't apply because they "feel" that it would be hard to move around. I'm sorry, but that's still not immobile. The main reason I find this upsetting is that it basically ruins the fun of part of the character. Uncanny dodge is supposed to be uncanny, not sorta-good.
A more RAW argument: Immobile is pinned, tied up, unconscious, paralyzed, etc. Not "pants around ankles." Note that entangled DOES apply a penalty to dex (and thus AC) and that should be plenty to represent the partial loss in mobility.
Did you see my caveat that it would only apply if the Barbarian was an NPC. I wouldn't force a player to loose their advantage.
You also failed to take into account the restrictive nature of the outhouse.
Hell if one of my players had his character sit in a sewage pit for three days so he could kill the barbarian king then as long as he made his rolls I would give him the advantage.
In other circumstances the ninja can go have a cry because their special skillz don't work against a barbarians special powerz I am taking it as RAW.
I like to reward creative and fun thinking but I don't nerf stuff to make things balanced. The real world is not balanced and neither is my game.
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Pants around your ankles has precedent as being "entangled", not "immobilized." (See the Dirty Trick combat maneuver's description.) You lose uncanny dodge via the latter, not the former.
As both a player and a DM I find it very upsetting when a DM rules that your ability doesn't apply because they "feel" that it would be hard to move around. I'm sorry, but that's still not immobile. The main reason I find this upsetting is that it basically ruins the fun of part of the character. Uncanny dodge is supposed to be uncanny, not sorta-good.
A more RAW argument: Immobile is pinned, tied up, unconscious, paralyzed, etc. Not "pants around ankles." Note that entangled DOES apply a penalty to dex (and thus AC) and that should be plenty to represent the partial loss in mobility.
Did you see my caveat that it would only apply if the Barbarian was an NPC. I wouldn't force a player to loose their advantage.
You also failed to take into account the restrictive nature of the outhouse.
Hell if one of my players had his character sit in a sewage pit for three days so he could kill the barbarian king then as long as he made his rolls I would give him the advantage.
In other circumstances the ninja can go have a cry because there special skillz don't work against a barbarians special powerz I am taking it as RAW.
I like to reward creative and fun thinking but I don't nerf stuff to make things balanced. The real world is not balanced and neither is my game.
No, the ninja should stop being an idiot and wait until the barbarian king is asleep. Toilet == entangled. Asleep == immobile.
No offense, but if my players come up with a patently stupid idea, I'll let them fail. Uncanny dodge is a common enough ability (2nd level!) that any assassin should know that it does not work on barbarian/rogue types, and would not risk it if they could not confirm the target was NOT a barbarian/rogue type.
Although I do admit I misunderstood the context of your stripping-of-uncanny-dodge, and I apologize for that.
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NINJA AM FLIP OUT AND KILL PEOPLE.
BARBARIAN AM BELIEVER IN CUSTOMER SERVICE, BARBARIAN CUT OUT MIDDLEMAN AND BRING KILL TO YOU IN HALF TIME.
CLEARLY, BARBARIAN AM BETTER THAN NINJA ALWAYS. ASSASSINATION AM INCLUDED. QUESTION AM RESOLVED.
I'll just wait until you're sleeping and coup-de-grace you for 11d6 damage. Can you make a DC 48 fort save? If you seem tough I might bring a scythe to up that to DC 65.
(Remember: Unconscious people are immobile. Sneak attack away!)
THIS AM COME UP BEFORE. NOWHERE IN RULES AM THERE PENALTY FOR NOT SLEEPING. AM ONLY THERE FOR WALKING TOO MUCH. BARBARIAN AM NOT NEED SLEEP PER RAW. JUST NOT WALK TOO FAR. OR TAKE TEENY NONLETHAL DAMAGE WHICH DAMAGE REDUCTION AM STOP.
Pants around your ankles has precedent as being "entangled", not "immobilized." (See the Dirty Trick combat maneuver's description.) You lose uncanny dodge via the latter, not the former.
As both a player and a DM I find it very upsetting when a DM rules that your ability doesn't apply because they "feel" that it would be hard to move around. I'm sorry, but that's still not immobile. The main reason I find this upsetting is that it basically ruins the fun of part of the character. Uncanny dodge is supposed to be uncanny, not sorta-good.
A more RAW argument: Immobile is pinned, tied up, unconscious, paralyzed, etc. Not "pants around ankles." Note that entangled DOES apply a penalty to dex (and thus AC) and that should be plenty to represent the partial loss in mobility.
Did you see my caveat that it would only apply if the Barbarian was an NPC. I wouldn't force a player to loose their advantage.
You also failed to take into account the restrictive nature of the outhouse.
Hell if one of my players had his character sit in a sewage pit for three days so he could kill the barbarian king then as long as he made his rolls I would give him the advantage.
In other circumstances the ninja can go have a cry because there special skillz don't work against a barbarians special powerz I am taking it as RAW.
I like to reward creative and fun thinking but I don't nerf stuff to make things balanced. The real world is not balanced and neither is my game.
As a player I would be upset if my DM gave me special PC protective armor which the NPCs don't have. As a DM I don't do it because my players would be upset if I did.
I also still distinctly remember one time when I was in a 5' tunnel. Small space, but I wasn't squeezing, and dragon dropped a breath attack which melted through the tunnel and hit me on the inside. DM ruled my 16th level rogue was flat-footed since there was no way I could have known it was coming so Uncanny Dodge didn't work. I'm still mad two years later.
There is a difference between rewarding creative and fun thinking and rewarding thinking which fails to take into account the particular strengths and weaknesses of the enemy. For most anyone, the outhouse spear-stabbing would be a brilliant strategy. Against the barbarian and rogue, though, it isn't. And the assassin should know better (give him a knowledge-local check to know that barbarians can't be hit by assassin's strike without a feint or immobile condition).
I am not sure if I recall correctly but can't you still do it if your ninja level is 4 levels higher than his barbarian level? Or is that only for sneak attack vs other rogues?