Try using the 6-player conversions linked here. It sounds as though you have a strong 5-player party, so they should be able to handle the 6-player version without any difficulty. (As a bonus, the owlbear gets bumped up to an 11 HD creature, so becomes immune to deep slumber.)
Also, if they're 7th level for the owlbear fight, they're a level higher than it's designed for. You might want to tone back the random encounters for a while.
Finally, how does the druid get standard action summons?
Finally, how does the druid get standard action summons?
Bear Shaman Arch is my guess.
Nadir, I hear that the boss from Varnhold Vanishing is actually pretty tough, and it should be easier to bump the challenge.
Remember that Challenge Rating expects players of middling competence at best. If you have really expert players, you have to up the challenges to achieve the same effect. If you award XP, this might mean your players advance slightly faster, compounding the problem somewhat. I don't award XP myself, and so I am able to boost the CR on encounters that I feel are too easy. It works for me.
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I can definitely relate to your concerns and woes. I have a party of 8 players at the moment and they steamroll through encounters. I'm running Realm of the Fellnight Queen at the moment and I have to modify every encounter for obvious reasons due to party size, but also because the majority of the group are experienced players who can build some insane characters.
Tactically they are lacking somewhat but for the most part it's hard finding a balance that is challenging but not overpowering. I'll provide an example.
Their APL is 7. In the module there is an encounter with 2 Large Water Elementals that is CR 5. They had come off a number of really easy fights and I wanted to challenge them, as these Elementals are supposed to be guarding an objective. So I changed the encounter and used 4 of the CR 9 Elementals. It made for a challenging fight but everyone survived and still had a decent amount of resources left. They are on par with if not undergeared. They have good but not amazing stats.
The key is creating environments that increase the challenge of the fight. Difficult terrain and hazards can make battles more difficult and add real danger. Using enemies that employ good tactics and having spellcasters hurling spells while melee forces keep them distracted is also a good way to make things challenging.
Just for sake of curiosity, it's just my impression or the monsters/enemies set in this AP (random encounters at low levels excluded) are, for the major part, barely more that a nuisance for experienced players (and/or optimised parties)?
It's not just you. A number of GMs have noticed that the first five books of Kingmaker are very easy. Books 4 and 5 are actually the easiest of them all. So your problem will get more extreme going forward. I will suggest taking steps to fix it now.
However, the difficulty level jumps way up for Book 6, and a lot of people that play that far say they feel very satisfied with that change.
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Just for sake of curiosity, it's just my impression or the monsters/enemies set in this AP (random encounters at low levels excluded) are, for the major part, barely more that a nuisance for experienced players (and/or optimised parties)?It's not just you. A number of GMs have noticed that the first five books of Kingmaker are very easy. Books 4 and 5 are actually the easiest of them all. So your problem will get more extreme going forward. I will suggest taking steps to fix it now.
However, the difficulty level jumps way up for Book 6, and a lot of people that play that far say they feel very satisfied with that change.
I'm going to go ahead and say its better to increase the CR and pull a few punches than play it as is. A party of 3 or 4 skilled players with a 20-pt buy wouldn't find too many close calls in the first few books, but they would be challenged. 5 players lets them gang up on single combatants. Grouped encounters should be used wherever possible, so the big bad gets a few rounds of pain in before everyone turns their attention to him/her/it.
I'm not sure, but I think the APs are written with a 15-pt buy in mind.
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Just for sake of curiosity, it's just my impression or the monsters/enemies set in this AP (random encounters at low levels excluded) are, for the major part, barely more that a nuisance for experienced players (and/or optimised parties)?It's not just you. A number of GMs have noticed that the first five books of Kingmaker are very easy. Books 4 and 5 are actually the easiest of them all. So your problem will get more extreme going forward. I will suggest taking steps to fix it now.
However, the difficulty level jumps way up for Book 6, and a lot of people that play that far say they feel very satisfied with that change.
I'm going to go ahead and say its better to increase the CR and pull a few punches than play it as is. A party of 3 or 4 skilled players with a 20-pt buy wouldn't find too many close calls in the first few books, but they would be challenged. 5 players lets them gang up on single combatants. Grouped encounters should be used wherever possible, so the big bad gets a few rounds of pain in before everyone turns their attention to him/her/it.
I'm not sure, but I think the APs are written with a 15-pt buy in mind.
It does seem to be that way.
I'm not sure, but I think the APs are written with a 15-pt buy in mind.
Specifically, 15 point-buy, with 4 players, with 20% of feats/options spent on wasteful/roleplay-driven choices.
They really should call this out in the books. A large group of optimizers are playing on a totally different level than the default group assumption.
Now, all that being said, Kingmaker is easy even for a 15pb/4play/20%waste party.
The Owl bear was kind of a quick fight in my game. The archer pretty much took it out before it could even damage the party. Now the Trolls, they were a challenge. The end troll wasn't but getting to him was.
The end troll wasn't but getting to him was.
In a funny twist, both of the groups I've run through Kingmaker have caused Hargulka to fumble a save against fire, and subsequently fail the save for the necklace. The first time through at least Hargulka had used the biggest of the orbs, but with the second group it was on the very first round.
It makes for quite a dead troll.
I've been boosting everything. But the reality is that no monster like the giant owlbear has a chance against an organized party of optimized characters.
I boosted my owlbear's strength and gave it 700 hit points to try to make it a challenging, memorable battle. My party still butchered it. Butchered through that whole module. Most dangerous part was the old elf tower.
I highly recommend giving the BBEG in Varnhold more assistance. He doesn't stand a chance alone. Cluster your creatures like you've been doing. That will give him somewhat of a chance. And focus on killing one character at a time. If the healer is good, it will still not win. But at least it will have a better chance of scaring your group.
And Hero Points seriously skew battles in favor of the party. So I feel your pain. I would say Hero Points have saved more lives in my party than anything else. But it's better to let them have them than to be constantly remaking characters.
Just gotta put that extra work to beef up encounters. Don't be afraid to boost hit points substantially give the feel of a huge, beastly hard to kill creature.
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At first I thought I gave the players to many options to choose from (i.e. every option present in every pathfinder manual) along with a 25 PB, but I really wanted to let them pick up whatever they wanted for their PCs (luckyly the Ultimate Magic/Combat was unavailable at the time :D).
Wow.. a 25 point buy is huge. Compared to the default, thats like a free +4 stat bump item at first level, which can make a huge difference in the difficulty of encounters (things that would normally be 50/50 chance of going off skew more towards guaranteed). I'd almost recommend giving most mobs the advanced template just to balance that out, without giving any additional xp for it.
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What went wrong is your PC's are so far above the expected power level you can't expect the encounters as written to work.
Your players are-
1. On a much higher point buy than is assumed (25 point buy as opposed to 15).
2. An entire level higher than expected for the encounter.
3. Numbering 5, rather than the assumed four.
4. Using Hero Points (which IS a boost in power)
Between these factors, you simply cannot expect any encounter in the book to stand up to your players as you've raised their power from the baseline in four seperate ways. I won't go into
I recently ran this fight in my PbP using my 6 player conversion, and it was no cakewalk for five of them, each character on a 20 point buy.
I would recommend using the 6 player conversion for chapter three and seeing how that works out for you. It definitely won't make it too hard for your PC's but you might find it presents the right level of challenge- and if it doesn't, you'll have a much easier time tweaking encounters to be a little harder for them rather than spending a lot of time on each encounter making it more challenging.
Edit: Simply divide the XP of any encounter by six rather than five and award that much XP to each player; they will progress at the exact rate the book assumes. I would slow their XP gain down for a while until they are at the right level for the game.
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Something to consider...here are the enhancers to the standard build for an AP:
- Hero points
- 25 pt build vs 15 pt build
- 5 characters instead of 4
- very experienced smart players
For one of these, using the 6 player adjustment would balance it out, maybe two. You have four, so likely it will still require some extra fleshing out from yourself, even on top of the 6 player fix.
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The players I have in my PbP are experienced and a little optimised, use good tactics and are on a 20 point buy. The 6 players been working nicely for them so far. I agree the OP will likely need to tweak further, but tweaking from the conversion is much easier than from the book.
I agree... I stepped away for a few minutes and my post became redundant since you stated it much more clearly :)
The problems isn't so much too powerful for the encounters it's action economy and 15 minute work day. A single BBEG just won't stand a chance against a party of adventurers. The Owl Bear is just that lone creature. Same with the BBEG Troll. My group has 5 and they bested the Owl bear with ease. The encounters that did pose a Challenge was the troll lair and the Elven Tower.
The challenging encounters worked because they weren't 15 minute work days. They were multiple encounters using up resources and there was more than one against the party.
I found the best way to increase the challenge is to group random encounters. If they get a random encounter I have it hold off and follow the party. So for instance they had wolves following them waiting for chance to strike when the party was weakened. Then when the party's guard was down after fighting a Shambling mound the wolves struck. Then the Hex encounter happened.
Just because you use the advanced template on your monsters doesn't mean you have to award them experience for it.
Try awarding them standard rewards for advanced creatures until the challenge comes back and then resume playing by the books.
I run my game getting the most fun out of it which on occasion means not being fair. This goes both ways too, sometimes PCs need a little bonus. As long as they are being challenged I am sure no one will complain.
For me, I added a couple defenses to the owlbear.
1-effectively immune to mind affecting effects - its in a blood fury rage and cursed by an epic level character's custom magic item. It knows no fear and can't be calmed. There may have been other things the players could have tried, but I really wanted to prevent Calm Emotions and Fear from affecting it.
2-Increased AC. I gave it a +5 to its AC. It was still to easy to hit. I boosted the armor from leather or hide or whatever to chain and gave it a few extra points of nat armor.
3-maxed HP. I have found that I need to do this to everything I send at them if I want any challenge.
It was still easy. I should have boosted its will save a few points too, as the debuffs started to stack (Bestow Curse +reach spell will be the bane of me) The trolls were definetely more of a boss for this than the owlbear. I think they should have organized it slightly differently so they were the conclusion.
Creative Director
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It's true that our APs generally assume 15 point buy 4-person groups—something that the core game, I feel, more or less makes pretty clear. So when you do 25 point buy with 6 person groups, the APs DO get particularly easy, especially when you play with experienced gamers.
I know… I'm running Serpent's Skull right now for my Saturday group, which includes two RPG superstars among their number. And I let them build characters with a 20-point buy AND there's six of them in all.
One thing you need to keep in mind when you do this is that you HAVE to be more dynamic with your GMing. Since the PCs are more powerful and more numerous, you need to be ready to adjust encounters on the fly. Usually, the encounters as written are going to be pushovers, but not always.
The way I've been handling this in my game is to strive to prevent the PCs from exploiting the 15 minute day, first of all. When they rest, I play the "enemy" as smart—they'll send demons or assassins or whatever they've got the resources to send out to attack the PCs as they camp, and use things like scry to prepare for the PCs if they fall back and come back the next day. For example, one of the players is an alchemist, so the bad guys started putting their giants in more key defensive areas so that the giants could catch his bombs with their rock catching ability, and a lot of the key characters started having resist fire type spells cast on them before attacking. They also adjusted to the other players in similar ways.
Allowing the enemy to evolve and learn from the PCs is a great way to not only make fights tougher, but after a few instances, the PCs realize that by doing the 15-minute day thing and not pushing through to try to get more done, they're just giving the opposition more opportunities to learn and dig in their defenses.
Also, I do a fair amount of "exploding combats." By which, I have an encounter start, but then I make sure that the other enemies in the dungeon do not just sit idly by. Creatures in neighboring areas come to investigate and join combats in progress quite often, so that the PCs end up fighting battles in which they end up facing multiple waves of foes who have all their defense fresh and ready to go.
In the case of the owlbear den at the end of Kingmaker 2, I would have probably had more of the monsters come to join the fight, turning the entire small dungeon complex into one big battleground. I also would have put the advanced template on most of the monsters as well, and probably would have increased the number of less dangerous monsters on top of that, adjusting on the fly to keep the game exciting and challenging.
Now... ALL THAT SAID...
Sometimes it's fun for the players to have "easy" encounters. It makes them feel like they're growing more powerful. Try to keep an eye on how your players are acting during the game; if they're honestly having fun being powerful and smashing through the easy encounters... you might not have as big a problem as you think.
And THAT said... you can always just skip an installment of an AP and start the next one down the line! :-P
And THAT said... you can always just skip an installment of an AP and start the next one down the line! :-P
Now you have me thinking of skipping Varnhold Vanishing and going straight to them being attacked... I just had them do an RP session with Varnhold and they set up a mutual defense treaty. It could be interesting to run start book 4 and then have Varnhold vanish mid war.
Given the nature of encounters in Kingmaker, and the overal timescale, I've been strongly considering changing all powers that refresh on a daily basis (with the exception of mundane healing) to go off of a "per week" system. So a Wizard gets to memorize spells on Sunday and the Cavalier only gets his challenges back on Sunday. I've proposed it to my players, and they were resistant (as it's strictly a power-down for them), but I'm thinking of bringing it back up again...
Afteral, the "per day" system was designed with a completely different style of campaign in mind. (Such as what most of the other APs use.) Since the assumption is now different, why not change the mechanics?
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Creative Director
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Now you have me thinking of skipping Varnhold Vanishing and going straight to them being attacked... I just had them do an RP session with Varnhold and they set up a mutual defense treaty. It could be interesting to run start book 4 and then have Varnhold vanish mid war.And THAT said... you can always just skip an installment of an AP and start the next one down the line! :-P
Absolutely. One of the big advantages of running an AP when all 6 parts are out is that you CAN do things like this.
If you do this, that forces the PCs to decide whether they want to stay home and help defend their nation, or head east to help Varnhold. And whatever they choose, they'll be faced with the fact that the option they've set aside will probably be growing worse, so that imparts to each an implied timer, so that they'll be less likely to be cavalier about taking a one day per encounter approach. And having to handle multiple encounters in a day is a great way to challenge higher level characters who have so many more options and resources.
It's true that our APs generally assume 15 point buy 4-person groups—something that the core game, I feel, more or less makes pretty clear. So when you do 25 point buy with 6 person groups, the APs DO get particularly easy, especially when you play with experienced gamers.
I know… I'm running Serpent's Skull right now for my Saturday group, which includes two RPG superstars among their number. And I let them build characters with a 20-point buy AND there's six of them in all.
One thing you need to keep in mind when you do this is that you HAVE to be more dynamic with your GMing. Since the PCs are more powerful and more numerous, you need to be ready to adjust encounters on the fly. Usually, the encounters as written are going to be pushovers, but not always.
The way I've been handling this in my game is to strive to prevent the PCs from exploiting the 15 minute day, first of all. When they rest, I play the "enemy" as smart—they'll send demons or assassins or whatever they've got the resources to send out to attack the PCs as they camp, and use things like scry to prepare for the PCs if they fall back and come back the next day. For example, one of the players is an alchemist, so the bad guys started putting their giants in more key defensive areas so that the giants could catch his bombs with their rock catching ability, and a lot of the key characters started having resist fire type spells cast on them before attacking. They also adjusted to the other players in similar ways.
Allowing the enemy to evolve and learn from the PCs is a great way to not only make fights tougher, but after a few instances, the PCs realize that by doing the 15-minute day thing and not pushing through to try to get more done, they're just giving the opposition more opportunities to learn and dig in their defenses.
Also, I do a fair amount of "exploding combats." By which, I have an encounter start, but then I make sure that the other enemies in the dungeon do not just sit idly by. Creatures in neighboring areas come to...
It's nice to know you do all the same things as a DM I do. I prefer a dynamic encounter when the PCs assault.
I read some of the APs and wonder if the designers know the players. This makes me feel better. I guess mainly the designers have a baseline they work by and they build everything around that baseline. We that don't play by that baseline have to adjust.
It's true that our APs generally assume 15 point buy 4-person groups—something that the core game, I feel, more or less makes pretty clear. So when you do 25 point buy with 6 person groups, the APs DO get particularly easy, especially when you play with experienced gamers.
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on the fly indeed. Our Jade Regent group has 5 players with 25 point buy in. I do up the HP or number of or both on most encounters, and so far it has been challenging.
i OVERDID it on the Smuggler's Shiv though. killed off 5 PCs even before they gotto the end game. Monitor Lizards. 5 of them. oops.
Lessons learned.
I've been experiencing this too. My players are experts, and the addition of Advanced Player's Guide, Inner Sea World Guide, and select rules from Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat have made things ... tricky.
NPCs require rebuilding. For what it's worth, sometimes this balances out nicely -- I took a Bestiary 2 Quickling and gave him a couple of Rogue levels and a Fighter level with Dervish Dance, and he became the premiere encounter of the dungeon. However, having to rebuild each NPC statblock is rather troublesome (that's why I'm running an AP instead of a custom game).
The base monsters have it even worse. At least when I open up access to new books, classed characters become more powerful with the PCs; but at least at this CR, the monsters aren't benefiting much from expanded feat selection, since they have so few feats and many good ones can't be qualified for.
The fifteen minute workday, supported in text, is frustrating too. My PCs act with the knowledge that what they fight will be the only thing they fight that day. I've considered abolishing the rule, but nobody at the table is really interested in having multiple random encounters in a day -- I myself have played in games where all we did was traveling overland from one place to another, and while killing monsters is cathartic, it wasn't narratively satisfying.
Compare this with dungeon locations -- where the party's three full spellcasters slather the group with the best spells they can muster, and slugger monsters have trouble hitting pretty much any of them.
In short, their major advantages:
* Very high perception checks makes it difficult to ambush them (two members have Eyes of the Eagle)
* Two creatures with Scent justify initiative rolls even when creatures manage to succeed Stealth checks.
* Very high initiatives, up to +12. Their first action is often a spell that disables an enemy group's ability to move.
* Higher attack rolls / damage / AC than iconic characters
I've been applying the Advanced template on the fly for some time now, and it hasn't been helping much ... I'm thinking of moving on up to making a table that will allow me to rapidly improve monsters by two hit dice.
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It might be a good idea to graduate the PCs out of the exploration style of play. Take 3-4 hexes and place the encounters into the same Hex, since any single Hex encompasses such a huge area it's not unrealistic. Just gloss over the empty hexes as being relatively peaceful.
Secondly, if the players enjoy the game its not a huge problem.
Thirdly, use weather- inclement weather can increase the CR for an encounter with a monster that can ignore the penalties.
Finally add secondary objectives and Red Shirts, if the PCs have to protect citizens while fighting it'll eat up actions :-)
That was an accidental component of our (very successful) Niska fight, actually. I expanded the event into an investigation and gave her mooks and expanded power, and the wizard spent his first action Resilient Sphere'ing the baby that she had down there which I hadn't thought twice about.
In retrospect, it would have died the very moment she got an action if he hadn't done that.
Nadir,
The problem is you didn't anticipate the parties APL and the challenge of the AP and they were too high level. I did the same thing starting the kingmaker AP. I used an alternate rolling method and my players avg around a 27 point buy. I also have 5 players. It's correct the AP is for a 15 point buy. The most important thing to keep in mind that i haven't seen addressed is this means the monsters have 15 point buy stats! Compared to 25 point buy players the monsters will get slaughtered. Then you add in extra actions into a 25 point buy party and things quickly spiral out of control. I'm also wondering if you were so generous with stat points if they have more magical gear than they should as well? Also your parties APL is not 7 so when your calculating the challenge ratings of encounters you might inadvertently be pulling punches.
With a 25 point buy your adding over +1 to the parties APL just with that. Then figure in an extra party member with 25 points and that would easily boost the APL by another +1. So currently your part of 5 is not APL 7 but more closer to 9! I know because im using the same figures for my party. I've actually rewrote EVERY encounter and monster to make up for this. In your case the 6 player adaption is NOT going to cut it, i tried it. It will still fall short. You allowed the players to have super stats and now it will take a lot of work on your part if your want to get the challenge curve back as i done. This will mean rewriting almost all the encounters.
I will share some tips as i was in almost exactly the same situation as you.
1)To offset the 25 point buy give ALL monsters the advanced template. Yep thats right, all the monsters in my AP are advanced.
2)Add in more advanced monsters. look on the Challenge rating chart and find where you want the CR to be. Add in enough advanced monsters to achieve this.
3) All your bosses, mini bosses, and encounters you want to be memorable build your creatures from scratch! It's a lot more work but it's actually fun in the end and you can build a LOT more stronger/challenging bosses.
4) don't be afraid to give monsters class levels, it's an easy way to build up the creatures CR. While some beasts might not make sense what really matters is there powers and stat block. This will start putting players on edge real quick when they don't know exactly what there fighting. My players about #$%^& a brick when Nagrundy raged and grew demonic horns and gained a Gore attack, thanks to the APG.
5) my major bosses and battles are full epic CR's everytime! you can do the same, but be warned lol.
5) Don't hold back. Epic characters have epic deaths ;)
My players haven't reached the owlbear yet but will next session. When they do they will be 6th level and in for a tough fight. i rebuilt the owlbear from ground up. Upgraded it's barding to chainmail. To give you an idea of what they will be fighting.
Huge Advanced Giant Magical Beast fighter (savage warrior)5 CR10
Str: 31* Dex: 14 Con: 26 Int: 2 Wis: 16 Cha: 14
HP: 150 AC: 26
2 claws +16 (2d6+18 + grab)/ Bite +15 (2d6+16)
Power Attack -3 +6 , Toughness +10, Improved Natural Attack-Claw, Weapon Focus-Claw, Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display, Improved Natural Attack-Bite, Weapon Specialization-Claw
Tactics:
If the owlbear is alerted to intruders it attempts to run or close in the fastest means possible. The owlbear is in a complete rage but prefers to rip it's prey apart with it's oversized claws than to focus on grappling. The owlbear will attempt to hold an opponent with it's claw at a -20 CMB check. If it succeeds it will begin smashing its victim into the ground, walls, and other opponents while still engaging others with it's other attacks. If it fails the hold (more than likely) the owlbear simply drops its victim to the ground. On the following round the owlbear attempts to rip apart it's dropped prey with it's claws, forgoing it's free grapples, and snapping at anyone with it's bite attempting to interfere with it's finishing blows. If the owlbear suffers more than 15 points of damage at a time it releases any creature it's holding on the next round and goes into a "dazzling display" of clawing the ground, roaring, howling, head twitches, eye twitches, and head darting from foe to foe. This should make it clear the owlbear is completely out of it's mind beyond all reason. After demoralizing it's foes the owlbear repeats it's tactics of attempting to hold victims, dropping and rending them, and biting would be rescuers until slain.
I actually held back on this encounter a bit not really thinking of it as a "boss" but more to draw the players into the fact that there town is vulnerable. Eather way this will be an interesting fight (only a challenging encounter) for a group of 5 lvl 6 players ;)I'm considering making it an epic enounter though and bumping giant beaky up to 7th level savage warrior as last session the players were fairly cocky after clearing the trolls...
Nadir,
The problem is you didn't anticipate the parties APL and the challenge of the AP and they were too high level. I did the same thing starting the kingmaker AP. I used an alternate rolling method and my players avg around a 27 point buy. I also have 5 players. It's correct the AP is for a 15 point buy. The most important thing to keep in mind that i haven't seen addressed is this means the monsters have 15 point buy stats! Compared to 25 point buy players the monsters will get slaughtered. Then you add in extra actions into a 25 point buy party and things quickly spiral out of control. I'm also wondering if you were so generous with stat points if they have more magical gear than they should as well? Also your parties APL is not 7 so when your calculating the challenge ratings of encounters you might inadvertently be pulling punches.
With a 25 point buy your adding over +1 to the parties APL just with that. Then figure in an extra party member with 25 points and that would easily boost the APL by another +1. So currently your part of 5 is not APL 7 but more closer to 9! I know because im using the same figures for my party. I've actually rewrote EVERY encounter and monster to make up for this. In your case the 6 player adaption is NOT going to cut it, i tried it. It will still fall short. You allowed the players to have super stats and now it will take a lot of work on your part if your want to get the challenge curve back as i done. This will mean rewriting almost all the encounters.
I will share some tips as i was in almost exactly the same situation as you.
1)To offset the 25 point buy give ALL monsters the advanced template. Yep thats right, all the monsters in my AP are advanced.
2)Add in more advanced monsters. look on the Challenge rating chart and find where you want the CR to be. Add in enough advanced monsters to achieve this.
3) All your bosses, mini bosses, and encounters you want to be memorable build your creatures from scratch! It's a lot more work but it's actually fun in...
This is how my group is too.
I rebuilt all the monsters by boosting their stats using 10 points or so more and boosting hit points and offense by about 25%.
<Tons of good advice>
I don't know if this kind of stuff is spelled out the GMG or not as I don't have it handy at the moment, but if not, it should definitely be added to a future GMG installment/similar book.
A lot of this stuff is learned over time with experience as a GM. Every group I've ever played with has felt that having their opponents act intelligently has enhanced the game/campaign. However, given some very vocal posts on these boards, it seem that some players cry foul they have to face any opponent at less than 100% capacity (see the "world without CLW wands" thread to see what I mean).
I'm all for player options, love 'em in fact, but player optimziation/sense of entitlement can go too far if you let it as a GM.
On a somewhat-related tangent, I can appreciate playing with higher-point buy builds when someone wants a highly-powered, over-the-top style of play. I'm just surprised by the number of people who don't take that into account when running pre-written adventures.
I've never had players feel that they weren't heroes using 15-point core RAW characters. Given the fact that players typically have higher levels, more wealth, and greater magic (including buffing & stat-boosting items) than most of the NPCs, anyway, demigod-stats seem superflous. Just my opinion, but I think it was a mistake for PF Society organized play to use the 20-point build -- it only perpetuates the illusion that high stats are "required".
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<Tons of good advice>I don't know if this kind of stuff is spelled out the GMG or not as I don't have it handy at the moment, but if not, it should definitely be added to a future GMG installment/similar book.
A lot of this stuff is learned over time with experience as a GM. Every group I've ever played with has felt that having their opponents act intelligently has enhanced the game/campaign. However, given some very vocal posts on these boards, it seem that some players cry foul they have to face any opponent at less than 100% capacity (see the "world without CLW wands" thread to see what I mean).
I'm all for player options, love 'em in fact, but player optimziation/sense of entitlement can go too far if you let it as a GM.
On a somewhat-related tangent, I can appreciate playing with higher-point buy builds when someone wants a highly-powered, over-the-top style of play. I'm just surprised by the number of people who don't take that into account when running pre-written adventures.
I've never had players feel that they weren't heroes using 15-point core RAW characters. Given the fact that players typically have higher levels, more wealth, and greater magic (including buffing & stat-boosting items) than most of the NPCs, anyway, demigod-stats seem superflous. Just my opinion, but I think it was a mistake for PF Society organized play to use the 20-point build -- it only perpetuates the illusion that high stats are "required".
You are right in that it isn't "required" but I believe they should be a cut above everyone they are Heroes! We as gms just adjust play accordingly. My players know that they can mow down the cannon fodder but named monsters and npcs are a different matter all together. They are happy knowing what they do very few can match. I'm ok with them feeling that way. Everyone is happy! It makes for great stories!
You are right in that it isn't "required" but I believe they should be a cut above everyone they are Heroes! We as gms just adjust play accordingly. My players know that they can mow down the cannon fodder but named monsters and npcs are a different matter all together. They are happy knowing what they do very few can match. I'm ok with them feeling that way. Everyone is happy! It makes for great stories!
That's cool. However, a 15-point buy WILL produce characters that are "a cut above" the typical NPC (Basic NPC array vs. Heroic array - the "average" stat is 10.5.
"Advanced Owlbear Writeup.
I understand your need to challenge your PCs, but if I was a player in your game I would question your concept of verisimilitude. With all due respect, it is your game and as long as you and your players are having fun then "by all means."
It is my understanding (might be a house rule bare in mind) that no creature with an intelligence of 2 can have class levels. By that methodology, a gopher can be a wizard or a chicken a paladin.
I would suggest advancing the Owlbear according to the rules in the Beastiary. Possibly add the "Fiendish" template as some sort of evil fey contamination (which could also help foreshadow.)
In addition to that, try adding two or three more owlbears to the mix. That should spice things up.
But I would stay away from owlbears who technically know how to use weaponry and are educated in the mechanics of seige engines.
"Advanced Owlbear Writeup.I understand your need to challenge your PCs, but if I was a player in your game I would question your concept of verisimilitude. With all due respect, it is your game and as long as you and your players are having fun then "by all means."
It is my understanding (might be a house rule bare in mind) that no creature with an intelligence of 2 can have class levels. By that methodology, a gopher can be a wizard or a chicken a paladin.
I would suggest advancing the Owlbear according to the rules in the Beastiary. Possibly add the "Fiendish" template as some sort of evil fey contamination (which could also help foreshadow.)
In addition to that, try adding two or three more owlbears to the mix. That should spice things up.
But I would stay away from owlbears who technically know how to use weaponry and are educated in the mechanics of seige engines.
If the owlbear uses neither weaponry nor siege weapons, it doesn't matter. It's completely invisible to the players. The owlbear can have levels of cleric and bard, yet the players would never need to know.
It's just a way of saying to the game, "I want lots of feats, BAB and good hit points for my CR."
On the other hand, with the advancement rules, every monster I've increased by 1 CR has gotten 2 HD. So while they won't get as many feats with 1 CR of Monster as they would with 1 CR of Fighter, they probably get more hit points and possibly attack bonuses.
So while they won't get as many feats with 1 CR of Monster as they would with 1 CR of Fighter, they probably get more hit points and possibly attack bonuses.
Exactly my point.
A creature with a 2 intelligence should not have the mental faculties to process the tactical usage of the quantity of feats a fighter recieves.
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So while they won't get as many feats with 1 CR of Monster as they would with 1 CR of Fighter, they probably get more hit points and possibly attack bonuses.Exactly my point.
A creature with a 2 intelligence should not have the mental faculties to process the tactical usage of the quantity of feats a fighter recieves.
I may be mistaken on this, but is there some rule that a PC who gets his brain sucked out and drops to 2 INT loses all of his class levels? There are many creative ways a GM can justify class levels on a creature(though with this particularly creature, I'd have gone with barbarian levels). If the creature was trained, however that was accomplished, the benefits of the levels would stay. Most combat feats are fair game to animals anyway.
Its all just a convenient way of achieving a game effect, like the character who plays a knight but has levels in fighter, or the PC who explains his sorcerer powers as the effect of demonic possession in his backstory.
As Alexander said, mileage may vary. DMing is an art, not a science.