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When you cast create pit in shared squares with 2 large (10x10) creatures in it, do both of them fall in, or do they take too much space?
My reading of the spell would make it seem that the 2 large creatures could fall in at the same time. My DM disagrees and says that if any part of the creature is out of the 10x10 square it doesn't have to make the save until the save at the end of their turn.
I would think that both could fall in, reasoning: wall of fire deals it's full damage to large creatures who only have half of their mass inside.
On the other hand I don't know if there is an official rule, thus if both large creatures are friends I would let them get a bonus on save due to one helping each other not falling in.
One way or the other if the larger creature ends it's turn "adjacent" it has to save or fall.
Again here's the problem if 1 foot in an adjacent square suffices.
It seems obvious to me that both creatures (or as many creatures who are in part occupying the same 10-ft by 10-ft area of effect) must succeed on their saving throws normally or suffer the spell's harmful effects just as they would any other spell.
Your GM is free to apply a circumstantial bonus or penalty to the roll if he thinks it necessary, but anything more than that is unfair and contrary to the RAW in my opinion.
When you cast create pit in shared squares with 2 large (10x10) creatures in it, do both of them fall in, or do they take too much space?
Honestly, I have seen so many GMs with hate for the summoner class that chances are pretty good that you are simply going to lose this fight.
That said, let's use logic. Most creatures are not shaped like a 10x10 foot cube. They may take up a 10x10 square spacing, but they are not cube shaped. The spell create pit however does create a cubic pit. If you have half of your footing suddenly vanish from underneath you, you will still swing your arms wildly to not fall over. Have you ever stepped into a pothole or stepped off of an unexpected curve, at times you must struggle to not fall.
Also, a normal medium sized creature fits in a 5x5 foot square, but two medium sized creatures can easily move past each other in the same square. The most that casting the spell on 2 large creatures would do is give them a bonus to climb out of the pit, under the assumption that they are helping eachother.
Thanks for the replies everyone. Is there any errata at all I am missing for this spell?
You have to remember that (it was worded like this in 3.5, but I haven't looked it up for PF) That a creature taking a 10' x 10' space doesn't take up all 100 square feet -- that's just their "fighting area" where they can act unhindered. It's why they can squeeze into a smaller space if needed. So, that 100 sq ft pit really IS a 100 sq ft area pit -- meaning they have just as much chance to fall in as a smaller critter.
Now, not looking at the rules immediately, I'd make a different case for, say, a huge or gargantuan critter -- they really would be like stuffing a round peg into a square hole... :D
Creative Director
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If a create pit spell pops in under any creature that fits in said pit (Large or smaller), that creature has to make the initial save to not fall in regardless of how many squares of its space are synonymous with the pit's squares.
The disadvantage for being a large creature is more that since you have 4 squares of space, you have 4 times the chance to be in one of those squares neighboring a pit at the end of your turn.
James, just to clarify, would that be an unaltered reflex save? My DM is wanting to give creatures a +1 if they are not completely in the 10x10 square.
Woops, sorry for the double post.
Also, he is wanting large creatures to get a bonus to their grease reflex save if they are only partially in the 10x10 square it occupies.
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Creative Director
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James, just to clarify, would that be an unaltered reflex save? My DM is wanting to give creatures a +1 if they are not completely in the 10x10 square.
Unaltered.
Your GM's free to grant bonuses like that if he wants, but that's not how the spell was written, and if he makes those changes he really SHOULD let folks know before they spend character resources to choose the spell. At the very least, he should give players an option to re-pick spells if that makes them undesirable to the player.
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Your DM can do what he wants, but that would not be RAW. If they have even one square in the pit and can fit, they have to roll the same reflex save. If they have even one square over the grease, they have to roll the save.
As to two large creatures being in the pit: Look up the rules on Squeezing. It can be done just as two medium creatures can share a space (though not happily).
Also note that the large creature can avoid the grease by squeezing even if they only have one square of room to move through. This makes movement cost double and gives penalties if they stay there at the end of their turn, but they can do it and it gives them a way to avoid falling prone if they really really don't want to be prone.
it's a little bit weird (from logic, not mechanics) that if a large creature is exactly on top of a pit, he gets to save once.
But if every square of the 4 he is standing on is the corner of a different pit spell, he has to save 4 times.
anyhow, I like the whole spell series :)
Thanks everybody for the replies.
it's a little bit weird (from logic, not mechanics) that if a large creature is exactly on top of a pit, he gets to save once.
But if every square of the 4 he is standing on is the corner of a different pit spell, he has to save 4 times.anyhow, I like the whole spell series :)
I think James simply means that since a large character takes up 4x the space, you can affect any one of those 4 squares and the effect will still take hold. Not saving 4 times.