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So, I've been running the Serpent's Skull Adventure Path, though we took an enforced break for a bit. However, we may be getting back to it before too long, providing life allows, and I've got a few questions and ideas I'd love to hear feedback on. We're fully underway in adventure five - City of Seven Spears - but due to some clever work on my players' parts, they've already stumbled onto a couple of elements of the Vaults of Madness. Basically this thread is asking for concepts, ideas, suggestions, and thoughts. Also feel free to tell how YOU handled some of these, if any.
* I talk/type/whatever waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much, so I've placed my rather excessive text in spoiler tags so you can skip to things that look interesting to you.
* For whatever reason, I enjoy the idea melding disparate groups, factions, and/or religions together or setting them up to oppose in complicated circles within circles. This represents itself by several sets of things (usually groups of three). It's complicated, but it adds dynamics to the story, and works well, I think, with the various factions either opposed to one another or allied together in this AP. So when you see multiple groups of things listed, this is one reason why.
* I'm also a permissive GM. I like to encourage my players to think outside the box and to do things that surprise and challenge me. I'm not one to pride myself in PC deaths of ANY KIND, and, in fact, I don't like them, however inevitably (at least) one of my player's bites it every adventure. Hard. Lateral thinking, I've found, minimizes this tendency, as I'm able to work hard and create realistic villains and intelligent villains, without murdering all the PCs constantly. This does, however, spill over into non-combat situations too. I love it when my players get creative and role-play elements of the story to the hilt. I'm okay with apparent power-creep ("story" style power), so long as it doesn't translate into too much literal power creep ("gamer" style power). For example, one of my players has become the owner of Smuggler's Shiv through careful negotiation and discreet purchases, while one has gained the attention and friendship of Lady Dagustana (I'm afraid I don't recall the spelling right now). This is all well and good for them, but it doesn't give them a great amount of personal in-game power, so much as social power.
* I don't have my books/notes in front of me, and I do have a baby (and he's fantastic!) Therefore, I'm going to misquote things and make mistakes. Oops.
One of my players not only has undead affinity, and a serpent bloodline, but was afflicted with lycanthrope from the rat on the island (later more-or-less cured, but with "lingering effects"). Basically, it's been kind of like having a GM's dream - a player that literally falls into every facet of a sub-plot that's been laid out substantially in advance.
Now the rats only have three nights a month that they're sentient, and, despite their power and super-genius, they can't really do much in that time. Further, it's based off of direct moonlight, not just "the moon is out and full". They're long-term plan is to create a kind of permanent night - and full moon - over the city, as they've seen testament to in ancient inscriptions (references to the Age of Darkness by the few survivors of that time). They plan on recreating it (somehow) but "doing it right" this time, to escape the "moon's tyranny".
To enable them to escape predators, but keep their wits, they've built a rather elaborate series of mirrors and prisms to capture moonlight and scatter it through microscopic tunnels, enabling them to find and create secret, large meeting places to congregate, plan, and work. Effectively for an hour every night of the full moon there is something akin to a religious ceremony
Part of what I'd written out ahead of time was that they have some vague prophecies is that someday the Golden Rat will come and lead them to a new era of prosperity and power. But they must watch out for the Fool's Gold Rat who will come to lead them astray. Which comes first and which comes second is a matter of debate. The rats worship a vague form of Shimye-Magalla (Desna)/Pharasma/<forgotten Azlanti goddess of the moon whose name I don't currently recall> hybrid base, but have twisted the ideals to a near-unrecognizable state, including such elements as rat superiority, and also more slight fear and bitterness (the the "tyranny of the moon" concept). Although I hadn't thought of him before, possibly involving Hanspur somehow is one facet of this idea that might bear exploring. One of their great "evils", (or rather hated "deities", as they need direct moonlight) is the deity of storm clouds, the moonless night, and snakes (and thus... Shimye-Magalla (Gozreh), Zon-Kuthon, and Ydersius, who they similarly all equate together).
Since the player with the three elements has gained the ability to shift into a rat (based off some creative uses of magic and haggling they can be golden or mundane, their choice each transformation, again before they ran into or knew of this) they were able to come across a peculiar thing I didn't think I'd actually be running: a rat-moot on a full moon. Basically it's a bunch of rats communing mentally (one "head-speaker" hits everything in a 100-foot radius with its telepathy, while "assistant speakers" at the edge of the radius repeat verbatim to every Lu-psied rat within range until the whole moot-ground is covered.
My player basically happened across the moot, got into range, and heard the prophecies repeated and the plan as a "sacred charge". Now that player wants to usurp control of the rats to gain their help in exploring Savinth-Yhi (and in general) and while said player supports the general prosperity of the rats and the idea of bringing them to permanent enlightenment, they don't necessarily support the "eternal night" goal.
Please note that this is totally fine with me in theory, as I'm all for PCs immersing themselves into the story. They're even thinking of taking the leadership feat to apply to the rats, which isn't a bad idea, role-play wise, if they want to gain control of the local mystic rodent population.
I've also begun incorporating the apes v. snakes into the campaign as well, though I've not built that one as solidly, as I didn't know it would be so important in the first adventure. One thought I had was working on bringing the apes around and binding them with the rats - kind of a "mammal v. reptile" thing, as the apes and rats have no particular opposition towards one another.
So: ideas, suggestions, concepts?[/spoilers]
[spoiler=Savith Reborn, Savith's Tomb, and Potentially Uncomfortable Subjects]
Fair warning, this starts out fine, but will descend into the distinctly possible-uncomfortable subject-matter in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th paragraphs, which are numbered for your convenience. Please skip if you're not interested in the PCs romantic life. I don't go into graphic detail or anything, just possibly uncomfortable to discuss on a forum. Or not, your choice.
1) Basically, I'm asking for advice. One of my players has deep, mystical ties to Savith, though she doesn't know it. She's a powerful warrior, but unbeknownst to her actually IS Savith reborn. The story, as I've got it written, is that Ydersius' poison went far, far deeper than the body, but pierced the soul, condemning Savith to the abyss and to become a demon undeservedly. Savith's soul was actually saved by three goddesses who opposed Ydersius working together - Desna, Gozreh, and <forgotten Azlanti moon goddess whose name I don't recall now>. The soul was taken and placed in stasis to help bleed the poison out so that it could head to its rightful place in the cosmos. When it was finally purified, she was reborn to an infertile couple who'd been praying for a strong young daughter. Their prayers were answered in the form of a newborn Savith.
2) One thing about <the forgotten Azlanti moon goddess whose name I don't remember now>, is that not only does she not exist (that I can find) outside of this AP, but also it seems that (according to the name Mother Moon, given by the centaur tribe in the King Maker AP) worship of the moon has transferred to Desna as well. This raises a large number of fascinating questions about the nature of Desna - a deity to whom no less than three different deities are associated with, are presumed to be, or have (apparently or definitively) transferred their portfolios [Curchanus, Gozreh, and <the forgotten Azlanti moon goddess whose name I can't recall now>]. I'd love it if a James or another Dev could weigh in on this. Even so, I'd also love to hear others' thoughts. If Desna has claimed the moon, or always was the moon, this means that only one goddess ever saved Savith: Shimye-Magalla, which dovetails nicely into...
3) Since I really didn't have any place to insert Personification of Fury, I wrote that an aspect of him was bound into the Tide Stone. The PCs used clever magic and skill (as well as the soul-gems from the dolls) to partially free it from the Tide Stone - it is still bound (and thus can't leave the island's immediate vicinity), and can still use the power of the stone (which is it's own power focused through the stone) but is otherwise free to roam and act as it pleases. It was partially affected by the soul within it, but mostly it's just as it always was.
4) This particular character became very... um... close, shall we say with Personification of Fury. Very close. Ahem. Worked (impressively) very hard at it, too. No, I shan't be giving details. As a devout worshiper of Desna before this campaign started, and becoming a powerful devotee of Shimye-Magalla shortly thereafter (religion and local checks are fun), this worked quite well (as Gozreh is part of Shimye-Magalla and Personification of Fury views itself as the perfect way to blend disparate elements...)
5) ANYWAY: all this works to very interesting results when looking at it. Basically Savith (reborn) is worshiping (through no manipulation of mine) the goddesses who saved her soul (literally and figuratively) and allowed her - through complicated circumstances - to be reborn. She is now actively courted by one of that <composite> deities' heralds, one who actually personifies the concept of blending disparate elements into a single creature.
6) This has also worked to her advantage as she's also er... courted... Ezio Egorius, the Praetor of Sargava. In my campaign (due to a complete lack of knowledge, otherwise) I had it written that he's the mixed blood grandson of Lady Daugustana (the result of a very, very long-ago youthful indiscretion that she's loathed and loved her whole life, ergo he's kept both distant, yet found great favor in the city somehow). He looks white enough to pass, yet he feels great kinship with the native peoples and pride in his native heritage (not knowing his connection to Daugustana who publicly loathes him) and goes out of his way to make sure relations stay good with them, but he's also wise enough not to openly tick off the nobility. That whole thing is going to come to a head later, but for now it's simmering in the background.
7) Ezio and Personification of Fury are aware of each other, but the player has actually been skilled enough to balance the two of them well. Basically Fury is akin to a worship experience while Ezio provides a more human intimacy. The latter two are going to be united in marriage, although Fury is... um... invited. Sort of.
8) All this has blended itself well as these are the strings she's eventually going to pull on to gather forces to invade the city below. Unbeknownst to her again. I'd love to hear what you guys think about any of this so far. Either for suggestions and development or just for reactions.
9) Further, she, of all people, has been fascinated by the tomb of Savith (seriously, my players are awesome - they latch onto things so well without my compulsion). She doesn't know why, but she feels 'compelled' to go there, as she's said. I'm thinking she might find the actual, original sword of Savith. I am curious about the fate of her original sword (whether or not it was destroyed by the battle against Ydersius, buried with Savith, etc), as well as its stats. I understand they cyclops general whose name I can't currently recall was wielding a facsimile. Is his of the same power of the original? Lesser?
10) One other thing I've done is taken the "prized Azlanti weapon" shatterspike, and turned it into a sort of hilt-less attachment to other weapons. I did this because, for one, it makes sense for Savith to have such an item, and for two it doesn't seem like its such an important or powerful weapon for the Azlanti to prize, considering they were going after a deity - a +1 isn't that big, at that point. Basically, a non-magic weapon it's attached to becomes a +1 shatterspike. Any magic weapon either becomes a +1 shatterspike or better, depending on the enhancement value of the weapon. Whatever the base enhancement value, it increases by +3 for purposes of sundering (maximum of +10). For now, it's being used on the underwater blade, although I suspect it will be used on the mantis blade, eventually.
11) The mantis blade is very fascinating and might make the perfect final weapon to assassinate a deity "once and for all". If she finds her own original sword, it would be also interesting to compare it to the mantis blade's power, and see which one she chooses, if she even has the option of her original blade.
So, in addition to any or all of your thoughts on the above, what do you think of the tomb of Savith? Any advice? Anyone create a decent write-up they could send my way or send me to?
Anyway, they've been introduced to the Vaults, and have gotten the idea that this is something important and interesting. They've been looking for similarly "grand" things in each of the major sections. They plumb the "lesser" dungeons too, but they're specifically looking for hard-to-find out-of-the-way places with weird rune-things in it (though they've no idea what to do with said weird rune-things) in their searches.
I'm curious about the design of adventure four for several reasons: one, at that level they should be ninth level or higher. By that point, the casters gain ridiculous abilities to bypass many of the difficulties inherent in the narrow dungeon corridors (though by no means all). Further, their mobility is huge. Can't beat a particular crypt/encounter? Teleport to base, heal up, and head back instantly. Tackling these at a lower level is pushing their level higher than expected, but it's working out well as I don't have to worry about them basically automatically bypassing the dangers too, so this has worked out for me (and them, they love it, so far).
Anyhoo, I'd like to hear your opinions on how I should handle future Vaults and whether or not I should allow them to continue finding them as is, or force them to wait. Also what do you guys think about the vaults being a ninth-level-plus adventure? Does it work?
Using advanced magic and powerful skills, they basically took the local Aspis Consortium - most all of them - and bound them up into the half-orc bar-keeper's business and the Red Mantis into destroying and delaying the other groups, and even effectively recruiting the Ivory Cross (who had nothing to do with this campaign until they brought them in). Through magic and diplomacy, they've basically done a fantastic job of dissolving various organizational boundaries and forging a new faction made of various parts of the old.
That said, only the Pirates, Pathfinders, and Sargava remain semi-independent (the Pirates have become a semi-official part of Sargava, as the captain is a co-owner/one of the leaders of the Shiv), while the local expressions of the Red Mantis and the Aspis have been taken over by the PCs.
The Red Mantis and Aspis did send new contingents, however. As well, to replace the co-opted groups, I've dropped a Chelaxians, Old Cultists, and Mzali as rival hunter/explorers as well.
As far as the race to Tazion, the PCs - all having acquired rings of sustenance - managed to make fantastic time, easily winning. They took time to blaze the trail for their group to follow as well, but mostly making it un-obvious. Basically they headed out first, making subtle sign for the secondary group (led by Pathfinders) to blaze the physical trail, for the tertiary group (the majority of the faction caravan) to follow.
Also, because Tazion was a choke-point, they set up fabulous series of traps and guardians to prevent the other organizations from gaining access. I only allowed a temporary delay (basically based on a roll they made), however, as eventually the others arrived, finding other ways into Savinth-Yhi. Still, many special resources (and thus minor bonuses) the rival factions came to Tazion with were co-opted by the PC group.
Even with her other... exploits... Jask has become quite taken with her (huge charisma + focused on social interaction + exceedingly friendly = popular; also had him falling before I knew where she was headed/what she wanted because she was a staunch supporter of setting him free and had made sure to visit him and give him good food while he was in the brig below, talking to and befriending him then, and I just kept it up because it's interesting tension, especially as it's the one she doesn't know about). I would guess that he'd be very interested in bringing her closer to his god and that would be one way of doing so - helping her absorb the clone-body of the herald. Again, what do you think?
Over-all, this has been a great game and we're all looking forward to getting back into it at some point. I'm curious as well what other home-brew or mixed elements have you added? I've put the Shiv into Kingmaker elements (enhanced by the Salt Mines and will be with Savinth-Yhi and possibly the under city as well, all promised by the Baron for claiming the land for Sargava), as well as dropping in political ambition and growth into the game (one of the PCs is a strong potential for next Baron... even growing Sargava into a Duchy) and potential war (Mzali). My players have also heavily invested themselves into the racism that's rampant and taken great pains to make the Shiv a fully egalitarian location filled with opportunities for all races equally (neither favoring the colonials nor the "native" zenj, but fully supporting and working with both).
EDIT: So let me know what you think about any topic at all, how you handled similar things in your game, if at all, and all that jazz!
wow!, thats one wordy post:), still sounds like a gran' ol' time. one question: do you have vaults of madness?, if yes i say full speed ahead with combining them (utilize the dungeon deathtraps in vaults in seven spears) imho the two modules work better integrated somewhat. be careful tho as some vaults will be waaay to hard at 7th-9th level.
wow!, thats one wordy post:), still sounds like a gran' ol' time. one question: do you have vaults of madness?, if yes i say full speed ahead with combining them (utilize the dungeon deathtraps in vaults in seven spears) imho the two modules work better integrated somewhat. be careful tho as some vaults will be waaay to hard at 7th-9th level.
Heh, often mine are wordy.
I do have them, and I'm glad you agree that integration works well. I think I'll continue doing that then. Does anyone have any ideas on the best ways to do so?
Look, I'll be 100% honest: I didn't read you entire post, but I have some tips on integrating adventure 3 and 4.
Level Balance:
- Consider lvl'ing up some of the expedition/tribal leaders, or the PCs might be able to easily pummel them to death if they focus on exploring before faction battle
- Up the power of some monsters. In particular, the monsters in I and L4 will be pretty dull if the PCs are above lvl 7-8.
- The monsters in adventure 4, area C4 (probably the first Vault they find), have a RIDICULOUS power. Think about how to handle it.
"Pacing"
My group focused on exploring and finding the Vaults much more than dealing with natives, and worked at a frenzied pace (in game time). As such, when they diverted their attention to the tribes and expeditions they were super-powerful and only a week or so had passed. I also dropped the ball when it came to introducing the meta-plot, so some of the events in adventure 4 got jammed in in a manner I'm not that proud of. So, advice:
Think about the timing of the events, and be prepared to have the NPCs work at "superspeed". This might feel a bit fishy, but the other alternative is the PCs being done with looting the city in two weeks (we are at the end with one Vault left, and did it in three weeks of game time).
Look, I'll be 100% honest: I didn't read you entire post, but I have some tips on integrating adventure 3 and 4.
Hey, that's fine! That's why I put it in spoilers so you can skip to the relevant bits that you want to comment on!
good stuff
Thanks, Jorge! I actually appreciate the good advice here. I hadn't thought of the potentially-devastating effect of that ability at will, so I'm glad you pointed it out. I'm not going for a PK, but it might happen, so my group will know to be on their toes. I think they're getting jumpy as none of them have actually died yet. Go figure.
Also, yeah, I'm not too proud of my own introduction to adventure four (being the mistake that it was), either, although I'm glad the party is savvy enough to pick out important clues on their own - especially when none of the allied NPCs or they knew what on earth the runes were. That said, my people have been working very hard at blending their super-group with the natives, so that's eating up time, which is good. Right now, they've got their camp at the entrance while they've set up good relations with the Radiant Muse and have plans to annihilate the Boggards.
That said, I noticed the pacing was really rapid for our party too - they can easily explore the place fast, and really they're good enough that they can get clues rapidly and easily racking up their total points very quickly. So, yeah, I'm working on the pacing of the thing. Fortunately their strong drive to interact with the natives has made it a slower-paced thing than it might otherwise be.
Sorry for the double post, but I can't edit into my last one soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
One other thing I was thinking of, was having the Zura cultists actually survive the ancient downfall of the world, or at least several of them. One degenerated into the vrikolakas, another into the skinless vampire (I don't recall the name now) in the crypt, and so on.
I'm wondering if using the udherfans (I know, spellings, off, but I'm tired and don't have my book with me) as Zura-stand-ins would be suitable against the serpent folk. Possibly even tie them more closely with Zura herself, despite the normally daemonic nature of their society.