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How in Shelyn's name did the 1-2 party survive the aurochs stampede? We played it with three 4s, a 1, a 2, and my level 5 cleric, and the only reason the level 1 Paladin lived to fight another day is because of my readied actions to channel positive energy. Granted, if you have a group that is excellent at climb, that's one thing, but the Paladin in armor was never going to make it.
It's illegal to play a level 6 in Shades of Ice. This fact actually caused our group to remake 1st level characters, since half of us were 6 just before playing Shades of Ice Part I at Gencon.
Also, the wolverine went down fast but was also a hard-hitter. I bet it could have killed the eidolon with a single full attack (unless the summoner was level 6, which was illegal).
Fireballing randomly into the cave? Seriously? That's going to lose them faction missions in the long run, as the cave could easily have contained the friendly barbarians who in fact came after the crevasse. The velociraptors have pounce, which can be devastating to a squishy. True they do die almost immediately after. I do agree that the snowbank barbarians were easy. For the final encounter, the GM had Desna's own luck, confirming crits with the archers three times in the first two rounds and bringing me (the cleric) down. It probably would have been a fatality if all three crits hit the same character, but when I did cleric stuff, as per tactics the BBEG had them switch to me. This actually caused the fight to be a nailbiter, since no one had a good chance to bring me back to conscious (I was at -10, so no single CLW would have done it), but they did win regardless.
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Um... as far as I'm aware you can't play up unless your average party level falls in the middle range (2.5 or higher).
I also don't know how a level 6 can even play a 1-5 module.
Version 4.0 of the guide requires APL be rounded down. Even if you are APL 2.9 in this situation, you're playing tier 1-2.
Are people's opinion's generally that this isn't an easy mod, it just really seemed like it to me, maybe I wasn't running it right somewhere (hopefully not).
Did people like the stuff I added in, or thought it was definitely unnecessary? I just felt this epic 3part module deserved more challenge, but maybe I had strong partys...
I ran this in 4 slots this past weekend and compared to the other mods I ran for the other 4 slots this was by far the least challenging to the players (IMO). Not one of these slots sniffed the 3 hour mark, and the last 3 times I ran it it only made it about 2.5 hours becasue I added an extra mob to the end (an Ice Mephit with Sorcerer levels) that greatly increased the encounter time.
The only really challenging encounter each time I ran it, was the wolverine (and then again only when playing in the 4-5 tier). I did have one player die during the stampede, but that was more of a fluke as it was the only time it happened. Most other encounters they steamrolled through.
I really did like the story arc for the 3, but I did think challenge-wise the last part fell a little flat.
On that note however, everyone seemed to enjoy themselves, and I didn't sense any level of frustration regarding the slot only running 2+ hours.
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They spotted the stampede way in advance, so managed to easily avoid the damage from that (some good perception rolls)
We also made excellent Perception (I think someone had 25 or so) and were given two rounds. Barring Fly (which obviously a 1-2 party wouldn't have), I don't see how the bad climbers in a party could possibly have made it to safety in two rounds. Even our group didn't have Fly, so the best we could do was grappling hook for the level 2 archer to climb, let the Barbarian 4 climb the sheer wall, and the rest of us buff and hope for the best.
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Version 4.0 of the guide requires APL be rounded down. Even if you are APL 2.9 in this situation, you're playing tier 1-2.Um... as far as I'm aware you can't play up unless your average party level falls in the middle range (2.5 or higher).
I also don't know how a level 6 can even play a 1-5 module.
And IMHO, this needs to be changed...if you fall in between, you should have the choice as a table. A 2.9 APL will steamroll a 1-2, get done early and have very little challenge. And honestly, who wants that? If they play up, they will have it a bit hard, sure, but that encourages creativity, planning, strategy and can even bring out extra role playing if you want.
These games should be fun & challenging - a bit of edge, a bit of a chance to die in a mod, a bit of fear, otherwise, we might as well just have the GM read the box text and sign our Chronicles instead of sitting down to play so we can go join another table that offers a challenge.
In my opinion, the problem is with table size. I understand the mods need to be written to assume 4 players, but most cons/game shops run 6-7. The only recourse currently is to increase the tier, which is clunky. I think they should rewrite these scenarios so that there are two types of difficulty increase, the tier bump for APL and an increase in foes fought for larger table sizes.
Honestly, I've been in non-optimized groups that steamroll over "big boss" encounters due to sheer numbers, no matter how nasty the foes are tier-wise. At GenCon this past weekend, I rolled last in initiative and the fight was litterally over (6 PCs vs 4 NPCs) before I got to act. Bumping up the number of foes (and hence Cleave opportunities!) rather than the strength of foes might aleviate this problem.
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The last fight is a little under dramatic. That is unless you are my group and your charging barbarian takes a thrown axe of death critical to the face in the first round. For those who have seen the weapon stats, it's about the worst thing that can happen in that fight. Nothing makes you praise hit points like loosing 46 of them in one hit. The deadliest part was definitely the trample trap. Full plate = buff and pray because there is no way you are getting up that wall in a round.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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In my opinion, the problem is with table size. I understand the mods need to be written to assume 4 players, but most cons/game shops run 6-7. The only recourse currently is to increase the tier, which is clunky. I think they should rewrite these scenarios so that there are two types of difficulty increase, the tier bump for APL and an increase in foes fought for larger table sizes.
The scenarios are pretty challenging to write with just two subtiers. The more options you try and build into a scenario the less space for story and the less polished the existing choices become. Adding more 'types' of changes you make the less quality scenario you are going to get.
Six player tables are tolerable and seven player tables are just plain bad for the game. We've pretty much banned seven player tables at both our LGSs because it just makes for a bad experience. Play at character level and wipe the floor or play up and risk characters getting one shotted.
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I completely agree with you. Shades 3 wasn't a very good scenario.
It wasn't interesting at all, was anti-epic (if that word exists, lol), no decent roleplay, no thinking was required, the encounters were too easy and/or filled with spike damage.
At subtier 4-5, the wolverine was fairly deadly, not to the group, but to the first victim. I believe the GM pulled his punches and saved our pregen Valeros. The trampling encounter was more like a trap, but it shouldn't have been (we didn't have any time to prep, even with good perception rolls, it was basically a Reflex save). It actually killed our pregen Ninja, but he was also saved. The last encounter, if the boss gets lucky, can kill players. That still doesn't make it fun.
Other than killing single players, there was no challenge or anything interesting in the encounter design at all.
Needless to say, if I ever run Shades of Ice for my home group, I'll probably end it at #2. (I'm considering not bothering with the series). The only reason to play #3 is for the boon.
To be honest, I don't even know how authors are supposed to write scenarios these days. Summoners, 2H fighters, Zen Archers, Magus, etc. can easily do 15+ points of damage each round, at 2rd level. Meanwhile you have PCs who are using magic missile and doing 2 hp per round (yes, it happenned with a level 4 pregen wizard, each encounter). How are they supposed to account for this much variability?
In my opinion, the problem is with table size. I understand the mods need to be written to assume 4 players, but most cons/game shops run 6-7. The only recourse currently is to increase the tier, which is clunky. I think they should rewrite these scenarios so that there are two types of difficulty increase, the tier bump for APL and an increase in foes fought for larger table sizes.
The scenarios are pretty challenging to write with just two subtiers. The more options you try and build into a scenario the less space for story and the less polished the existing choices become. Adding more 'types' of changes you make the less quality scenario you are going to get.
Six player tables are tolerable and seven player tables are just plain bad for the game. We've pretty much banned seven player tables at both our LGSs because it just makes for a bad experience. Play at character level and wipe the floor or play up and risk characters getting one shotted.
It can be as simple as saying "if the party has 5 players, add 1 extra mook, 2 extra for 6 players". Maybe an option for a minion or two for big boss fights, or an extra NPC for party vs party fights.
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I'm glad it's not just me that believes that this is an easy mod.
I know that there is a difference in the dpr of certain classes at the moment, but I think that a load of pregens could get through this easy, and they are definitely not optimized.Just such a shame.
Incidentally. They all had either decent climbs or decent rolls (or were levitated by a very kind wizard)! So I guess they were lucky with that!what would the rules be adding in other stuff to make it more... shall we say, challenging? E.g. the dragon coming at the end. I know I really shouldn't kill PCs by making it harder, since that's kinda not fair. But I'm assuming it is allowed? If so, would anyone want to run it with these extra modifications and if they do. Let me know how people like it.
Thanks again guys,
Matt
OK, so someone had levitate and was actually level 3. That I can believe. There's just no way that 1-2s would have the resources to beat that stampede.
Also, the ridge was 40 feet high (at least in our game). It's actually impossible to climb to the top even with a 30 foot speed before the stampede comes without accelerated climbing (-5 to your check, so that's going to be very hard to make three times in a row) and after the stampede appeared, the DC for climbing went way up (20 or more, and you had to roll reactively or fall).
But yeah--other than the stampede, which I think is at least somewhat likely to generate kills without area healing, it is certainly true that the humanoids were mainly chumps and the animals glass cannons.
