New Poison Rules that don't suck! (ideas only)

[jstbell]

I started this house-rule set for POSION because I felt the rules are poorly written and make it very difficult to use poison. Due to the recent additions of Alchemists and Ninjas who have “Poison Use” class features I felt the system need to be updated to make the abilities worthwhile, rather than taking an option available that would trade them away for something useful.
As the rules sit, the cost of using poison is too high at any level; Too high in Actions, materials, and too low of a threat

In car terms it is said: you can have two of three: fast, cheap, or reliable.

In D&D it is: action time / duration, power of effect, or ability to resist. These three determinates scale by level, the power you are capable of performing.

To say it bluntly I would like to customize poisons to change, cost per use, applications per action, the save DC, and the effect.

1) Since many poisons are deemed “save or die” I would first get rid of those poisons or push them into “only at high levels”. This requires some sort of level dependencies. The easiest to enforce is based on HD for everyone and 2xHD for classes with “poison use” to give it some benefit.

2) To make poisons more costly for their specialty I would consider craft(Poison) the relevant skill rather than craft(alchemy).

3) I like the idea of making poisons akin to creating an eidolon.

• Number of base poisons
• Modify base by craft skill check and crafter’s HD (2xHD for “poison use”)
• Modifications Limited in effect by crafters HD (2xHD for “poison use”)
o Time limited ability damage (flushed out of your system after time)
o Which type of ability damage
o Dizziness/deafened/shaken etc. in place of ability damage
o # of applications per dose (limited by lvl / fullbase attack?)
o Material cost (cheaper buys you fewer mods, more expensive more mods) (something like the cost of a scroll of appropriate level?)
o Onset time / frequency / duration

4) Poison’s crafted by someone that require more HD then you have, greatly increase chance of poisoning yourself, or can’t use at all. Since a natural 1 on applying poison is a 5% chance. I would say applying a higher level poison is 5%xHD difference in level (minimum of 5% if you don’t have “poison us”).
5) There are Alchemist and Rogue specific discoveries and tricks that modify poison use, I think there should be more and more useful ones at that. Such as “Poison Focus” and “Greater Poison Focus”.
6) Since there is (Spell: Poison) it can serve as an example of cost/action/effect/level to scale the system against.

[jstbell]

I want to hear what you all think. Am i on the right track to fun or a track to disaster?

[MicMan]

If you want to make poison "worthwhile" I guess you mean "worthwhile in combat" because poisons are already worthwhile as story element.

If you want to give your PCs (and NPCs) the possibility to use poisons in combat the onset time and frequency need to be one round and nothing else.

However the most important part is the Fortitude Save DC. A poison using the usual 10+half level+ability mod would be effective roughly 50% of all times, which seems about right. It's no fun to use something and see it fail 80% of all times unless its a combat ender and then its lame.

Anyways you should be ready to roll a whole lot of Fort saves per round and possibly also track a lot of conditions on your NPCs (uh, wait, this one is dazed and also -4 on Str while that one made its save and is only -2 on str). Makes combat a hassle if you ask me.

It gets ugly if your PCs get the idea of combining poisons (either two poison users or one with TWF). You could end with slowed and dazed monsters that need to pass two different fort saves each round...

[Foghammer]

Not only that, but some number of poisons require multiple consecutive saves to shrug off, so that's something else to keep track of.

I think a simpler way to achieve your goal to to increase the risk of poisoning oneself without training and lowering the costs of poisons by a percentage based on their strength. For instance, you might cut the weakest poisons cost by half, but the next "level" by 25%, and the strongest by only 5%.

That makes poison more accessible to those with poison use, but scarier to use for those without it.

As for increasing the DCs for poison, note that using multiple doses of the same poison on multiple attacks extends the duration by 50% AND increases the save DC by 2 for each application. I think this is the reason most poisons have relatively low save DCs.

[Charender]

Another way to do poison would be to create a set of poisons that mimic debilitating spells. Think of spells like sleep, daze, blind, touch of gracelessness, hold person, etc.

Use the prices for making a potion, but allow the potion of these spells to be used as an injury poison. Now you have a ton of new level appropiate poisons available.

[Lobolusk]

I would like to see the use poison feat be switched out for some other ability if you dont want to use it. or you dont feel it is worth it.

[mcbobbo]

Charender wrote:

Another way to do poison would be to create a set of poisons that mimic debilitating spells. Think of spells like sleep, daze, blind, touch of gracelessness, hold person, etc.

Use the prices for making a potion, but allow the potion of these spells to be used as an injury poison. Now you have a ton of new level appropiate poisons available.

Wow! That's an excellent idea!

Though I might compare costs to scrolls, rather than potions, if it matters. Potions are often self-use, while scrolls are often targeted at others. It might impact something, balance-wise.

[Charender]

mcbobbo wrote:

Charender wrote:

Another way to do poison would be to create a set of poisons that mimic debilitating spells. Think of spells like sleep, daze, blind, touch of gracelessness, hold person, etc.

Use the prices for making a potion, but allow the potion of these spells to be used as an injury poison. Now you have a ton of new level appropiate poisons available.

Wow! That's an excellent idea!

Though I might compare costs to scrolls, rather than potions, if it matters. Potions are often self-use, while scrolls are often targeted at others. It might impact something, balance-wise.

Scrolls can only be used by classes that can cast the spell. Potions can be used by anyone. Poison do not require any spellcasting ability, so I think the potion price is more appropiate.