You have just chosen once again to make up your own version of what people said (which bears no resemblance at all) and then decry them as wrong. The amount of vitriol you add to their posts is alarming, and it well matches your own.
The fact that 'Prof' and 'Gail' can happily sit there and advocate such acts of domestic terrorism is beyond the pale, how can they with clear conscience act as apologists for these rioting vigilantes and excuse the enormous damage they do and the lives they take.
You have just chosen once again to make up your own version of what people said (which bears no resemblance at all) and then decry them as wrong. The amount of vitriol you add to their posts is alarming, and it well matches your own.The fact that 'Prof' and 'Gail' can happily sit there and advocate such acts of domestic terrorism is beyond the pale, how can they with clear conscience act as apologists for these rioting vigilantes and excuse the enormous damage they do and the lives they take.
They have quite clearly done precisely what I have said.
Gail's comment was about it being a shame the same rioting wasn't happening in the USA.
Frightening.
Then again that post has been moderated out of existence.
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On the other side of things, how hard done by and disenfranchised do you have to be, exactly, to justify brutally bashing and robbing a foreign student during the riots? Society has treated me so poorly, I think I’ll break this recently arrived exchange student’s jaw, threaten him with knives and steal his stuff ... then when he was lying there in the gutter, another group came along and stole more of his stuff. Nice.
And then there’s the people / persons who drove over and killed three guys trying to protect their neighbourhood (as mentioned above). Social justice? I don’t think so.
I don't understand why its so hard for you guys to understand this:
The poor and disenfranchised who riot and destroy their own neighborhoods aren't protesting. They're rioting. Thanks to society's neglect, they are underemployed, undereducated, stressed out, and have no outlet for their frustrations.
No one out there is thinking logically. No one is acting in a rational manner. They're just going nuts. Because that's what happens when you take a bunch of human beings, keep them just this side of starving, confine them, poke and harass them, treat them like crap, and otherwise ignore them. You deny them everything that makes people better, and you end up with a bunch of dumb animals.
Why does a abused monkey fling itself against the bars of its cage until its broken and bleeding? Does it think that will accomplish anything?
NO! It just needs to do something, and its only option is something self-destructive.
Shifty's right, I'm not very sympathetic to the shopkeepers and middle class folk that are victimized by these riots. That doesn't mean I'm sympathetic to the rioters. The rioters are a bunch of dumb, animal thugs acting out of exuberent, festive violence. They're acting exactly like I'd expect abused children to act.
Society doesn't want to deal with these people, so it ignores them. This is the cost of ignoring them. This is chickens coming home to roost. Are the rioters sucky jerks? Yes.
So is everyone else in the world.
"Hey, these people are in crippling poverty and have no source of income.Another LIE, they're not in crippling poverty. Look at Somalia, -that's- what "crippling poverty" means
So you suggest we hold ourselves to the standards of...Somalia?
And still another LIE. I never said a word about other social services/programs, let alone suggest that they be butchered.
My idea is to butcher their social services so they have no house, no food, they already can't get a job, but in return, we'll give them money not to have kids."
Your answer remains "Rather then establish and enforce better sexual education and Family Planning clinics, we will give the poor money to sterilize themselves."
That is morally abhorant.
I am now imagining "There are poor people in Africa who don't even GET mass sterilisation programs!" in my old mum's best eat-your-greens voice.
Why you haven't been banned I have no idea, you lying sack of liars.
Seek help.
Seriously.
Are the rioters sucky jerks? Yes.So is everyone else in the world.
And
Maybe your parents were junkies. If your mom was shooting up while she was pregnant with you, that would explain why you are so incredibly dumb.
Is some pretty crazy and nasty stuff to spray around. I'm not being cute here but you seem quite mentally disturbed.
Hey Ettin, did you still wnat to stand by that point?
Those are his quotes.
Baseless? You attacked me, Shifty. You started s+$~ with me, now you're whining about me giving it back?
Post proof.
Because all we have here is your personal attacks against my good person. Luckily they continue to be moderated out, as they are quite disgusting remarks you keep making.
Maybe your parents were junkies. If your mom was shooting up while she was pregnant with you, that would explain why you are so incredibly dumb.
Like that one.
Never mind, I have flagged that one, as it is pretty disgusting stuff be even 'Internet forum' standards.
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Why does a abused monkey fling itself against the bars of its cage until its broken and bleeding? Does it think that will accomplish anything?
Comparing the poor to monkeys now?
The sense of noblese oblige/white man's burden you feel must weigh heavy on your shoulders
When you boil away all the poetry and self-flattery, human beings are just domesticated primates. Truth hurts, but that's all we are.
Poor people are generally very badly trained domesticated primates that are under too much continuous stress have any real awareness or enlightenment. Not all of them, obviously, but that is the consequences of poverty. It leaves you morally, spiritually and intellectually impoverished, and thus closer to the animal nature that underlies all human behavior.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a liberal because I've got a big bleeding heart that cares for everybody. I'm a liberal because poor, stupid people annoy the crap out of me, make life tiresome, and I'd like to see them eradicated. Since you can't just kill poor people, you have to do stuff like...you know...educate them. Give them work to do. Help them become fully realized people.
Hi Ettin, is there a stance you wanted to take a point you were wishing to make?
So you suggest we hold ourselves to the standards of...Somalia?I suggest that you use words honestly.
I am! You're the one that keeps bringing up things like Somalia!
Your answer remains "Rather then establish and enforce better sexual education and Family Planning clinics, we will give the poor money to sterilize themselves."We give the poor money to sterilize themselves now. Planned Parenthood has long provided financial assistance for vasectomies.
You assert that giving the poor choices to help get out of poverty is morally abhorent.
Chilling
I'm pretty sure you're literally ignoring me now.
I've stated that we need to increase sexual education and push for Family Planning centers as well as increased help for the poor. These are things that have been shown to lower birth rates.
You are saying "Pay the poor to sterilize themselves, then they can choose between having money and having kids"
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Why does a abused monkey fling itself against the bars of its cage until its broken and bleeding? Does it think that will accomplish anything?
Comparing the poor to monkeys now?
The sense of noblese oblige/white man's burden you feel must weigh heavy on your shoulders
When you boil away all the poetry and self-flattery, human beings are just domesticated primates. Truth hurts, but that's all we are.
Poor people are generally very badly trained domesticated primates that are under too much continuous stress have any real awareness or enlightenment. Not all of them, obviously, but that is the consequences of poverty. It leaves you morally, spiritually and intellectually impoverished, and thus closer to the animal nature that underlies all human behavior.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a liberal because I've got a big bleeding heart that cares for everybody. I'm a liberal because poor, stupid people annoy the crap out of me, make life tiresome, and I'd like to see them eradicated. Since you can't just kill poor people, you have to do stuff like...you know...educate them. Give them work to do. Help them become fully realized people.
Nasty brutish and short eh? How very Hobbesian of you. Personally I'm more of a Jean-Jacques Rousseau type...
Hi Ettin, is there a stance you wanted to take a point you were wishing to make?
Yes.
Don't much feel like repasting, though.
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Poor people are generally very badly trained domesticated primates that are under too much continuous stress have any real awareness or enlightenment. Not all of them, obviously, but that is the consequences of poverty. It leaves you morally, spiritually and intellectually impoverished, and thus closer to the animal nature that underlies all human behavior.
Is the emphasised part of what you wrote your 'gaol free card' GB?
Sorry, after I read what you wrote I have to say it is a load of crap. I grew up in a poor family, in an economically challenged area surrounded by wealthier areas, and we were far from "badly trained domesticated primates" thank you very much.
If you have not noticed, from the lofty perch you reside on, far above the real world, that even the "better classes" in society are as capable of abhorrent behaviour? Why because "daddy had a Porsche" and sent Billy off to "the fancy private school" that he is somehow better bred, more socially "domesticated" then those of us who did not have that privilege?
You live in a rough area, you learn to survive in that rough area.
'Them', 'they', 'not MY fault'....
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...and after reading all of this tripe, don't people have anything better to do, like discuss the disparity of Paladin alignments RAW vs RAI or rend your clothes from your body due to the loss of free heavy armor proficiency from the Pathfinder Cleric on Fox News or Huffington Post commentary threads in response to their unrelated news articles?
Sometimes, I forget I'm here ... on a role playing game board.
*shrugs*
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The Mothman, he is wise.Thanks for that Ross, now we will have to deal with his "wisdom" at the gaming table! :D He will be giving us "advice" next Friday night. His Abadaran paladin will, of course, charge for the service! ;D
You had better believe it Chubbs. At last, validation of my wisdom. Listen carefully next game night Chubbs McGee, for there will be greatness amongst you, who knows what pearls of wisdom will issue forth from my lips?
;-)
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Sorry, after I read what you wrote I have to say it is a load of crap. I grew up in a poor family, in an economically challenged area surrounded by wealthier areas, and we were far from "badly trained domesticated primates" thank you very much.
If you have not noticed, from the lofty perch you reside on, far above the real world, that even the "better classes" in society are as capable of abhorrent behaviour? Why because "daddy had a Porsche" and sent Billy off to "the fancy private school" that he is somehow better bred, more socially "domesticated" then those of us who did not have that privilege?
Billy is a domesticated primate too. He's just one that lives in a gilded cage and is given license to indulge his base nature without it being criminal. He also has every opportunity to better himself, and easy access to enlightenment, so I judge him a lot more harshly for failing to enlighten himself than I would the poor kid surrounded by gangs and poverty who doesn't undertake the rather heroic task of enlightening himself.
Don't misunderstand me. Everyone on this planet is a domesticated primate. That includes you, me, the Prof, Shifty, Robert Hawkins, and everyone else in this thread. All of us were poorly trained to some degree or another, but most of us had a lot of opportunities to grow and develop.
The desperately poor are just deliberately denied a lot of those opportunities, and not allowed to act out like the wealthy are, which leads to explosive conclusions like rioting.
I'm not saying take it down a notch because you'll be banned, I'm saying it because calling someone a "retarded crack baby" isn't cool by any means.
Well I think we see the type of mentality that leads to things like the riots in London. You have people that should know better, acting in ways that are inappropriate. They don't care that what they are doing is wrong, they know it is, but the given in to their baser emotions and lash out at others, even if it is unreasonable. One doesn't have to come from the downtrodden to react this way, it is unfortunately all to common in our human framework. It is the type of mentality that leads guys to beat up some semi-famous perform for trying to hit on one of their girlfriends, and it is the type of mentality for someone to make horrible comments on some internet site.
That is not an excuse, but it is something we should all be aware of. "The first step to avoiding a trap is knowing of its existence." Be aware of how your emotions can lead you into behaving irrationally and control your reaction.
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So here's something I've never really gotten about the "don't have kids you can't afford" bit. Sometimes people have every reason to believe they are ready to have kids...they have a good job, decent savings, stable household, etc. So they have a child...and then things take a dump. Someone gets laid off. Someone gets very sick. A spouses leaves. And suddenly they can't afford to support their children any more. The point is, situations change, a fact that seems to get routinely glossed over by the "don't have kids you can't afford" crowd. As usual, things aren't that black and white.
Sometimes, I forget I'm here ... on a role playing game board.
*shrugs*
This thread is much better if you imagine everyone in it as a D&D creature, fyi. Beholders using telekinesis to type, mind flayers typing with their tentacles, dragons reclining on their hoards with laptops, dwarves and elves...
Or literal trolls, depending on preference, I guess.
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This thread is much better if you imagine everyone in it as a D&D creature, fyi. Beholders using telekinesis to type, mind flayers typing with their tentacles, dragons reclining on their hoards with laptops, dwarves and elves...
Or literal trolls, depending on preference, I guess.
Damn I am only CR 1/4. Better watch who I annoy then...
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So here's something I've never really gotten about the "don't have kids you can't afford" bit. Sometimes people have every reason to believe they are ready to have kids...they have a good job, decent savings, stable household, etc. So they have a child...and then things take a dump. They get fired. Someone gets very sick. A spouses leaves. And suddenly they can't afford to support their children any more. The point is, situations change, a fact that seems to get routinely glossed over by the "don't have kids you can't afford" crowd. As usual, things aren't that black and white.
Yeah, and here's the other thing I notice: The "don't have kids" crowd is almost always male. And generally straight males at that. Which means they don't really know what its like to be a woman and the pressure that men exert in order to get sex.
I don't want to go all Andrea Dworkin and be like "all heterosexual intercourse is rape," but the radical feminists are right that men -- even good, decent, honest non-rapey men -- can exert a lot of pressure on women to put out. And men don't always think about the consequences of that.
Which is how a lot of women end up with kids they can't afford. Because some guy said he loved her, but then he threatened to leave if she didn't put out, so she put out, then she got knocked up (because he didn't want to use a condom that one night, and she was too afraid of him leaving to argue), and then he dumped her.
Or, you know, she's a minority, and the father got arrested for one of the many "crimes" that is only illegal if you're not white (you know, like drug possession or trespassing).
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On the other side of things, how hard done by and disenfranchised do you have to be, exactly, to justify brutally bashing and robbing a foreign student during the riots? Society has treated me so poorly, I think I’ll break this recently arrived exchange student’s jaw, threaten him with knives and steal his stuff ... then when he was lying there in the gutter, another group came along and stole more of his stuff. Nice.
And then there’s the people / persons who drove over and killed three guys trying to protect their neighbourhood (as mentioned above). Social justice? I don’t think so.
I don't understand why its so hard for you guys to understand this:
The poor and disenfranchised who riot and destroy their own neighborhoods aren't protesting. They're rioting. Thanks to society's neglect, they are underemployed, undereducated, stressed out, and have no outlet for their frustrations.
No one out there is thinking logically. No one is acting in a rational manner. They're just going nuts. Because that's what happens when you take a bunch of human beings, keep them just this side of starving, confine them, poke and harass them, treat them like crap, and otherwise ignore them. You deny them everything that makes people better, and you end up with a bunch of dumb animals.
Why does a abused monkey fling itself against the bars of its cage until its broken and bleeding? Does it think that will accomplish anything?
NO! It just needs to do something, and its only option is something self-destructive.
Shifty's right, I'm not very sympathetic to the shopkeepers and middle class folk that are victimized by these riots. That doesn't mean I'm sympathetic to the rioters. The rioters are a bunch of dumb, animal thugs acting out of exuberent, festive violence. They're acting exactly like I'd expect abused children to act.
Society doesn't want to deal with these people, so it ignores them. This is the cost of ignoring them. This is chickens coming home to...
Please read my posts in context Gailbraithe, if you read the post one or two above the one you quoted you will see that I am very aware of and sympathetic to the social issues that have led to this whole tragic situation.
I think the whole social situation urgently needs to be addressed and properly, not some half assed bandaid method. Though I am not confident that it will be.
However, I firmly believe that ‘society / my situation made me do it’ is never a good justification for violence. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, and some of the acts of violence in this riot are just horrible and unjustifiable, no matter what disadvantage and persecution one may have suffered.
I am very surprised that you have no sympathy for people who’s homes and shops have been burnt and looted, especially given that many of them are in, from or serve the same sort of disadvantaged regions that the riots began in. And if they are ‘Middle Class’, that does not equate to ‘opporessor’. One of the problems with a riot is that it is indiscriminate, it will hurt people who are sympathetic to the plight of the rioters just as much as those who are not.
I wonder how the poor and disenfranchised of London would feel about you categorising them as animals? While I agree that ‘society’ has a lot to answer for for creating a situation where people can feel justified in such a riot, or feeling that they have no other outlet, I think you are SEVERELY overstating the case in saying that they are kept ‘just this side of starving’ and ‘confined’ and ‘poked’. Most of the rioters you will find are not living in extreme poverty, but are living in difficult situations, in a difficult time, and feel understandably frustrated by their apparent lack of options. They are not cornered, hungry, abused animals as you categorise them.
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So no, the problem isn't multiculturalism. It's only when that "culturalism" consists of opposing religious views (Christian sects vs. Christian sects, Christianity vs. Islam etc.).
So tell me, what are those "values" you are referring to?
And I'm not making this a right vs. left problem.
Ok, thread blew up and might end up being locked, so I'm not going to give this the attention it deserves, but...
The mixing of cultures is inevitable and has been going since different groups of people discovered different ways of doing things. What bothers me is ideological multiculturalsim. A civilization that bends over backwards to tolerate and appease all worldviews doesn't have a coherent one of its own. A society that teaches that values and traditions are arbitrary and all equally valid uproots itself from its own history. And when people feel uprooted and unconnected, they no longer care and they become nihilistic in a basic, existential way.
This is a broad generalization coming, but I'd say that modernism and post-modernism have dealt the West a crippling spiritual blow to both the secular and the religious. And until we deal with that fundamental issue it is all just right vs left ping pong.