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Obviously, this is lousy taunt tanking. What the party needs is some decent crowd control and AoE DPS, because the BBEG times his attack just as Samurai's cooldown go off(and we know they do - sneaky Blizz devs have code for that), the party is down unless it has a Belf Paladin who can throw a Blessing of Obliteration approx. 2 seconds before the cooldowns go off.
Some decent coordination and that's doable.
Wait, you mean I'm on the wrong forum?
I don't know the samurai ability really.. but can't the samurai choose when to activate this ability ? all your points are pretty moot if that is true..
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I'd hazard a guess that a level 20 Samurai has, either of himself or his party members, means of getting in the right place without having to worry about goons.At which point last stand becomes useless for the reasons i stated.
Its only purpose is to literally take less damage from goons using melee/ranged weapon attacks.
If they are not hindering you in any way from reaching your intended target, then there is no reason to use last stand.
Its like Paizo read about Benkei and wanted to model last stand after it, but forgot some very important things...that a scary fighter screaming a challenge is best avoided and any smart person would avoid him rather than fight him personally in melee.
I honestly cannot think of any legitimate reasons why the ability auto ends if you do anything ranging from killing goons that are in your way to bashing down the door that the target locked in your face.
I didn't mean killing them off, I meant for example having boots of flight or a friendly arcane caster with dimension door. Get to the BBEG and activate LS so that you don't have to worry about the goons you just bypassed or any reinforcements the BBEG has.
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I am simply amazed nobody thought of this during play testing.
BBEG with goons. Level 20 samurai challenges BBEG. BBEG kites samurai while using goons to help whittle his HP down. The samurai cant do anything to the goons at all and must let them attack him constantly.
Typical misreading of the challenge abilities. The samurai or cavalier isn't prevented from fighting the goons in his way, he's just at minuses to do so.
Also might argue that one might want to be a bit strategic on choosing when to make such challenges as well. There's nothing wrong with sweeping the area clean of trash before making your dramatic challenge.
You still take damage from the goons if they choose to target you, allowing the target(or anyone not wielding a melee/ranged weapon) to easily kill you.
On average last stand will result in goons dealing 5 less damage per great sword hit to you...peanuts at level 20.
The target also deals minimum amount of damage. A BAB 20 guy would do 20 damage less in this case. That can make a do or break difference in a fight.
I am simply amazed nobody thought of this during play testing.
I'm simply amazed people actually think "kiting" works on anything except a brainless machine that has predefined behaviour patterns.
BBEG with goons. Level 20 samurai challenges BBEG. BBEG kites samurai while using goons to help whittle his HP down. The samurai cant do anything to the goons at all and must let them attack him constantly.
Samurai with companions. You know, like the gamer is designed to be played.
Companions clear the way for samurai - if that is even necessary. Without thinking hard about it, I can think of lots and lots of scenarios where the goons can't prevent the samurai from closing with the BBEG, and many mêlée characters have ways to make it hard to disengage once they have you.
And even if they close ranks, there are ways to circumvent such "living barriers" that require no offensive actions.
And if the samurai has his daikyu handy, and maybe even sits astride his mount, he'll just shoot over their heads, or past them.
If the BBEG is in a corridor and the corridor is blocked by the goons, the samurai is unable to lift a finger to kill the goons blocking the corridor.
If he even has to. As I said, samurai don't have to be stupid swordsmen. And they don't have to be alone.
Once the Samurai hits 0 hp from the goons
10.000 years later, you mean? We're talking about goons. Goons are, per definition, significantly weaker than their master. Especially if they're enough to be really able to play meatshield.
Even better : Samurai challenges BBEG. BBEG runs behind a door and locks it. Samurai cant bash down the door or last stand immediately ends, the door being a seperate target from the BBEG.
I call BS. Inanimate objects don't count. Remember that this is not a computer game.
If the party helps the samurai kill the goons, last stand effectively does nothing since it only allows the samurai to take less damage from the goons.
The reduced damage also goes for the actual target.
There are a killion ways to get around your "insurmountable obstacles", all of which stemming from the fact that this is Pathfinder RPG, not World of Warcraft the MMO.
Goons block the way? Barrel through them, cut a breach through them, close with the BBEG and THEN declare your last stand.
Or just shoot past them in case we are talking about a kyudoka. Level 20 archers don't give an airborne coitus about obstacles.
And there is magic. The Samurai might not have his own magic, but the chances that some of his companions do is quite high. So you just go past them using magic.
Is the last stand unstoppable? No, of course not. But there is no fool-proof foil for it, either. Not in a game where all combatants are controlled by a thinking human being.
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The target also deals minimum amount of damage. A BAB 20 guy would do 20 damage less in this case. That can make a do or break difference in a fight.BAB doesn't enter into it. The only difference is the damage range on the weapon.
BAB 20 classed BBEG makes 4 attacks. Each is gimped to minimum dice.
That also means that this ability gets better better when facing Large+ things with manufactured 2h weapons but hey.
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BAB 20 classed BBEG makes 4 attacks.Unless he's an archer, or TWFer, or isn't using full attacks, or whatever. This is just a goofy DR X/-, except that it doesn't work against natural or unarmed attacks and it's worse against multiple-attack routines.
Goofy DR X/- that's better than capstones of several classes. (Bard? Druid? Ranger?)
stand once per day whenever he makes a challenge. While
this challenge is in effect, all melee and ranged weapons
deal the minimum amount of damage to the samurai,
unless the attack scored is a critical hit. In addition, the
samurai remains conscious and is not staggered while he
is below 0 hit points. While using this ability, the samurai
cannot be killed by melee or ranged weapons unless they
are wielded by the target of his challenge. Attacks made
by opponents that are not the target of his challenge deal
no damage when samurai has 0 or fewer hit points. This
ability has no effect on spells, environmental effects,
supernatural abilities, or any other source of damage
other than melee and ranged weapons. Such sources of
damage affect him normally and can kill him (although
they do not cause him to fall unconscious or to become
staggered if they reduce his hit points below 0). This
effect lasts until the challenge ends or the samurai takes
an offensive action against a target other than the target
of his challenge.
Okay, first, I have noticed some things mentioned that I want to touch on in the first few posts.
1) Claws are weapons, A Man in Black. Natural weapons are still weapons. A closed fist is debatable. I don't think that the description of Last Stand is thorough enough to pass hard judgement on the interpretation, because most of the time things like this will specifically call out "manufactured weapons" and "natural weapons" if it is including/excluding them. This text does not cite either, so I'm personally inclined to include unarmed strikes here. So spells and environmental damage.
2) This ability is tied to the Challenge ability, so I think it would behoove the samurai in question to simply NOT challenge the BBEG until he deals with the mooks, unless his party deals with them. He still benefits from taking minimum damage from weapon attacks from the target of his challenge, and in addition any mooks that slip away from the party to attack the samurai will be under the full effect at that point.
3) True enough, the samurai can't attack a mook while Last Stand is in effect during the Challenge issued to the BBEG WITHOUT ending the Last Stand (which would be kind of dumb). Last Stand is a once per day ability, so this would be dumb, however, the Samurai is not restricted from attacking them if it is [for some obscure reason] necessary.
The scenarios you're describing, OP, are set up in a way that do not account for party members, and make it seem like the DM designed the encounter to negate the samurai's ability to use his class features to their intended capacity. That's not poor game design, it would be poor DMing, because it isn't fun to get to 20th level and basically be told your capstone is useless.
Ultimately, no ability is useless, it is up to the DM to make those abilities worthwhile. If the DM isn't providing you with opportunities to use your feats, class features, spells, etc, then s/he is doing the players a disservice.
The fact that the OP mentioned kiting made me shake my head...
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Natural attacks are not weapons. In fact, they are, by definition, attacks made without weapons. Pathfinder specifically uses the term "natural attacks"; I just use "natural weapons" because I played 3e for longer than I did PF.
If it meant "melee attacks" and not "melee weapons", it would say so. It specifically says, "This ability has no effect on spells, environmental effects,...
From the rules themselves:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites (...)
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From the rules themselves:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites (...)
Which rules? Because the Universal Monster Rules seem to disagree.
Natural Attacks
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using [etc.]
You have the Natural Weapon combat style of Rangers. Natural Weapon Mastery of Savage Fighter.
INA's prerequisite is : Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
You can Weapon Focus natural weapons (as evidenced by mutliple Bestiary entries).
Bestiary wording isn't in synch with the Core Rulebook, but natural attacks = natural weapons all over the place.
I will concede unarmed strikes, though as a house rule, I would include them in the description. That just doesn't make much sense to me.
However, I don't know why there would ever be a true distinction made between natural attacks and natural weapons. Claws are weapons. Fangs are weapons. They are meant to cause damage and ultimately help disable prey. I think the reason for the flip-flopping of terminology was simply to keep the text from getting stale and repetitive. While this may lead to differences in interpretation, I understand why that would be the case.
My position stands on that matter, even if I have to resort to the base argument of "you can't prove me wrong." ;D
Has anyone considered the other bonuses the samurai gets to the target of his challenge? Check out the Order of the Warrior's challenge bonus, Greater Resolve, Demanding Challenge, and True Resolve. All of those are abilities that can be used in conjunction with Last Stand. They make the battle far more survivable and the target of the challenge CAN choose to flee the samurai, but suffers penalties, just as if the samurai chose not the target his... target. <<;
I had originally spoilered all of these abilities to show them, but then I figured that was rude to Paizo. Sorry, you'll have to look yourself.
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I guess we can file this one under "no matter what we say, the OP will still stand his ground" and move on.
Oh wait you're one of the Elves of Golarion thread guys? Now *that* explains everything.
I find it hilarious that you are saying this when i have had to repost the same arguments at least 3 times in this thread because people don't read.
And i have no idea what the elves of golarion thread is.
I cant think of many capstones that this pathetic version of DR beats. A charismatic bard for example, can get a high DC save or die...which is far more useful.
Sorry there, got you confused with one other poster. Apologies!
Bard capstone takes a full round, has a short range and is mind-affecting, something that level 20 BBEGs are usually immune to in some way.
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However, I don't know why there would ever be a true distinction made between natural attacks and natural weapons. Claws are weapons. Fangs are weapons. They are meant to cause damage and ultimately help disable prey. I think the reason for the flip-flopping of terminology was simply to keep the text from getting stale and repetitive. While this may lead to differences in interpretation, I understand why that would be the case.I'm increasingly sure that it's intended to work against natural attacks and is just poorly written; Gorbacz has a decent point about inconsistent wording. It's still insane that it doesn't work against spell damage, though.
C'mon, xd6/level spells suck and no mindful level 20 Wizard will be running around with empowered fireball :)
But yeah, I see no reason it shouldn't protect against Spells, SLA's and Su's. Oh well.
I found it to make decent sense for not working against energy and spell type attacks, much like DR. Last stand doesn't have to be "I'm Juggernaut, b$&&@!" but can fluffwise be a mix of brawn, parries and other such tricks of trade, which won't help much vs fire or acid.
On the other hand, the situation the Op described is less likely to happen than me becoming the king of the world, and sounds like a scenario run by a douche and not a gm. Not to mention it throws any kind of difficult thinging that might come with considering lvl 20 gear and allies, not to mention skills and feats.
Also, an object wouldn't be a target. That's just plain arguing for arguining's sake, unless you want to admit that you could use last stand on an object, say, a castle or an airship, and since those, unless rammed into you(as if), make last stand last infinitely while you chop it down with an adamantine sword.
I'm saying that the examples Op gave, which are tailored for a single samurai's last stand who's ungeared by the sound of it and doesn't know how to get allies sounds more a douche scenario than an actual evil villain.
And with the last add, a samurai with cure potions or healer, and an adamantine sword, can singlehandedly carve out a fortress, because even the cannons are ranged weapons, doing minimum dmg. Add on buffs and magic items, and considering items a viable target is plain dumb.