I must have missed something.... MWF doesn't work just like TWF, it replaces it. so the primary hand will be -2, but all the other hands will only be +1, as I read it. Not that that's not gross...it is. Personally I'm having a problem understanding how this is a CL1.
I'm using a software called Hero Lab to create the characters. While it's not perfect, in this case I'm 99% certain that it's calculating everything correctly.
Here's the relevant text of Multiweapon Fighting:
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
So again, with a one-handed main hand and nothing but light weapons with your off-hand, your penalties are normally -4\-8. Reduce those by 2 and 6 respectively, and you have -2\-2. STR of +4 and a BAB of +1 means attacking with one shield would be at +5; fight with your main hand and your off-hands and you subtract -2 from each attack, putting them at a +3.
Note that the Kasatha is a powerful race, and even in PFS they restrict it heavily. But take that out of the picture and assume a Human Fighter. Here's what he'd look like:
Human Fighter 1
Medium humanoid (human)
Hero Points 1
Init +2; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 13 (1d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +3 (1d4+4) and
. . light shield bash +3 (1d3+2)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Two-weapon Fighting
Skills
Languages Common
SQ hero points
Other Gear four-mirror, heavy steel shield, light steel shield, 76 gp
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Special Abilities
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Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
23 AC - your creature is back to hitting on only a nat 20. And you're still hitting on a 9 or better and attacking twice a round to boot, doing a likely 6 damage per round.
I posted a 1st level human fighter dual-wielding shields with the assumption that the bonuses stack. He'd never have quite as much AC as the Kasatha, but with Shield Focus adding +1 to the shield bonus from his shield it'd make up for a bit of a loss. Plus with only 2 shields to enhance he could probably have them enhanced at +4\+3 by 11th instead, which would almost make up for not having the extra arms.
Now to be fair, at 1st level he'd still have a 21 AC even without the doubled shield bonus, and that's nothing to sneeze at. It's when you start leveling that you start getting really gross.
Just for fun, I leveled this guy to 11 (as that's when he can get Shield Mastery, and where it becomes uber-gross).
** spoiler omitted **...
And in an 11th level party setting, you might see Inspire Courage, Prayer and Haste cast in the first round for another +5 to hit and +4 to damage plus another attack.
So now that I think about it, if MWF uses shield attack, then it is in essance trading AC for in infurior weapon?
Depends on your definition of inferior. If you were going a two-handed route, then yes, you'd definitely do more damage. But if you actually look at the weapon charts, 1d6 is the top end of light weapons (unless you go with an aklys, which is a weird situational weapon anyway) and 1d8 is pretty much the top end for one-handed weapons unless you invest in an exotic proficiency. So once you get bashing on them, your shields are comparable with what you'd be wielding if you were using actual weapons (to be fair, if you take crit range into account, they are inferior, but for pure damage they're not).
Again, the purpose of this isn't really to tout that these are the optimal builds. They're not. But your damage trade-off for the amount of AC you could get if your shield bonuses were allowed to stack isn't sufficient; you're still doing nearly the same amount (if not the same amount) of effective damage as a standard weapon-based TWF build, while basically rendering yourself almost unhittable.
Drop one Shield, take prenerf-Crane Style. Make 'em cry.
I went ahead and built out the 11th level human Fighter. Edits below include adding in the extra armor from the shield (not as legal but to indicate what it would look like if it was legal):
Human Fighter 11
Large humanoid (human)
Hero Points 1
Init +3; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 39, touch 13, flat-footed 30 (+12 armor, +7 shield, +3 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 104 (11d10+44)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +4 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +21/+16/+11 (2d6+12) and
. . light shield bash +21/+16/+11 (1d8+12)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +3, close +4)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +18; CMD 32 (36 vs. disarm, 36 vs. sunder)
Feats Double Slice, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (shield, heavy), Weapon Focus (shield, light), Weapon Specialization (shield, heavy), Weapon Specialization (shield, light)
Skills
Languages Common
SQ armor training 3, hero points
Combat Gear potion of enlarge person (6); Other Gear +3 full plate, +3 bashing heavy steel shield, +3 bashing light steel shield, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +1, gloves of dueling, ring of protection +1, 2,721 gp
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Note that the human Fighter only wound up 2 AC below our Kasatha, at 39 AC. If he didn't enlarge he'd actually be equal to him in AC. He only has 2 attacks that are 'guaranteed' to hit, two that are in the medium range (equal to the Kasatha's second attack), and then two lesser attacks that would hit on a 14 or higher. Again, that's roughly equivalent to what a standard TWF using weapons would have, but it's far more AC.
Note that while our human Fighter would be likely to hit the creature on 4 of his 6 attacks, our 11th level creature would still need a nat 20 to hit our Fighter here. So he's not really trading off any damage compared to a TWF (save in crits) but he's making himself far less 'hittable'.
Wait... I can't confirm builds, only rules. But the basic design of a shield bash, is that if you do it, you lose the AC Bonus. So if the fighter bashes just once, he looses the AC Bonus; does that calculate in?So now that I think about it, if MWF uses shield attack, then it is in essance trading AC for in infurior weapon?Depends on your definition of inferior. If you were going a two-handed route, then yes, you'd definitely do more damage. But if you actually look at the weapon charts, 1d6 is the top end of light weapons (unless you go with an aklys, which is a weird situational weapon anyway) and 1d8 is pretty much the top end for one-handed weapons unless you invest in an exotic proficiency. So once you get bashing on them, your shields are comparable with what you'd be wielding if you were using actual weapons (to be fair, if you take crit range into account, they are inferior, but for pure damage they're not).
Again, the purpose of this isn't really to tout that these are the optimal builds. They're not. But your damage trade-off for the amount of AC you could get if your shield bonuses were allowed to stack isn't sufficient; you're still doing nearly the same amount (if not the same amount) of effective damage as a standard weapon-based TWF build, while basically rendering yourself almost unhittable.
Not an issue.
You can protect yourself with your shield, even if you use it to attack.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency
Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield's shield bonus to your AC.
Normal: Without this feat, a character that performs a shield bash loses the shield's shield bonus to AC until his next turn (see Equipment).
Being susceptible to spells is more a being of class choice.
Ok, for a martial character, allowing the use of multiple shields to add to AC is a very powerful option. Easily a 8 or higher on the scale.
The reason being that such a character can whittle away at an enemy with almost impunity because of his huge AC bonus.
A Heavy Steel Shield is a +2 bonus, and if you take Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus you get a +4 bonus from the shield. Now you've got two shields, so that's a total of a +8 bonus to AC from just the two shields and two feats.
Toss on Full-plate and you're already sitting on a 27 AC and you haven't even added any magic and only 2 feats.
Once you get to 11th level, you can use Shield Master to double-dip the enhancement bonus on the shield. Enhancing your shield as a defensive item, also adds to it's offensive quality.
For example, if you have a +5 Shiled (for a total of +7 to AC before feats like Shield Focus), if you have Shield Master, it also functions as a +5 weapon. It only cost you 25,000 gp, while buying a +5 weapon normally costs 50,000 gp. Good news! Because Two Weapon Fighting is a pre-requisite for Shield Master, so you can buy two +5 Shields for the cost of one +5 weapon and with Shield Master, you are getting two +5 weapons for the cost of one +5 weapon.
So, in the above, you have Shield Focus, Greater Focus, and two +5 Heavy Shields. All total, you're getting +18 to your AC from your shields, and they both function as +5 weapons.
But here's the kicker, you can also enhance the shield as if it were a weapon. So you make one of the shields a +1 Dueling weapon, which allows you to transfer some, or all, of the shields enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and add it to your AC.
So you take one of those shields (lets say your off-hand shield), and you transfer the +5 enhancement bonus that Shield Master gives you, and add it to your AC. So now one shield is giving you up to a +14 bonus to AC by itself.
So between the two shields, you now have a +23 AC bonus. Toss on your +5 Full-plate (AC bonus of +38 now) +5 amulet and +5 ring (AC bonus of +48 now) and all of the other little items like a Jingasa, Ioun Stone etc. Plus you still get to add in your Dexterity.
So now you're sitting on something like an AC of 66 - 70 so you're pretty much untouchable at this point.
Granted, this is higher levels, but it is an example.
Letting people dual-wield shields and get double the shield bonus is a very, very, strong ability and you should be hesitant to even think of doing so.
Shield Master is a feat that lets you add the enhancement bonus to defense, as an enhancement bonus on offense.
Q1) I thought you can only shield bash with the off-hand, which I understand only offers one attack?
Q2) Using that same build, what would be the AC if you only had one shield?
Q3)If you enchant a shield for protection, I thought it only operates as a defense, any offense has to enchanted separately.?
Q1: No, this is not true. You can shield bash as both your off-hand and main hand attacks.
Q2: Not really a build, but without that second shield you're getting Full Plate (+14), Shield (+9), +10 (amulet/ring), +3 (dodge, ioun stone, jingasa), up to +7 Dex for a total AC of 53. Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively can raise these higher. Keep in mind that one can pretty easily get a 40+ attack bonus at this level.
Q3: See the Shield Master feat above.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shield master only works when you have one shield and one weapon. It says wield a weapon, not use a non-weapon as a weapon.Shield Master is a feat that lets you add the enhancement bonus to defense, as an enhancement bonus on offense.
Q1) I thought you can only shield bash with the off-hand, which I understand only offers one attack?
Q2) Using that same build, what would be the AC if you only had one shield?
Q3)If you enchant a shield for protection, I thought it only operates as a defense, any offense has to enchanted separately.?
Q1: No, this is not true. You can shield bash as both your off-hand and main hand attacks.
Q2: Not really a build, but without that second shield you're getting Full Plate (+14), Shield (+9), +10 (amulet/ring), +3 (dodge, ioun stone, jingasa), up to +7 Dex for a total AC of 53. Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively can raise these higher. Keep in mind that one can pretty easily get a 40+ attack bonus at this level.
Q3: See the Shield Master feat above.
A Shield is also a weapon. So if you attack with a shield, it's a weapon and qualifies for Shield Master.
Shield Master is absolutely a broken feat, however, I didn't really talk about the part of Shield Master that actually makes it broken. Hint, the double enhancement bonus isn't what's broken about Shield Master.
But yes, essentially, anything is a weapon. Shields, however, are specifically able to be enhanced as a weapon. Someone without Shield Master could buy a +5 Shield that is also a +5 weapon for roughly 75,000 gp.
Shields are also specifically called out as being both a shield and a martial weapon.
The definition of "wield" (outside of use of magic items), simply means that you could potentially make an attack with the weapon. So if you had Improved Unarmed Strike, you could technically have a shield in one hand and nothing in the other and still qualify for Shield Master.
Shield Master is a very, very powerful feat. I'm not sure that it crosses my line between "wicked powerful" and "broken" or not, but it's right on the cusp for sure.
Well, to be fair, you can't use a wand in one hand, and gain the bonus of Shield Master. Nor could you drink a potion, or use a scroll. You must have a weapon in that hand to gain the benefit of the feat, so if you're using something that isn't a weapon, then you don't gain the benefit.
It's a very corner case though, as only combat classes are going to be using Shield Master and they're pretty much always going to have a weapon in their hand.
@Xaratherus, Shield Master is a very broken feat, and I'll tell you why.
You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.
The bolded line is the true power of the Shield Master feat. Now, I will state that I firmly believe the intention was to mitigate the TWF penalties with a shield. However, as written, you ignore absolutely all penalties to attack rolls with a shield while you have a weapon in another hand.
So that means if you use Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Fight Defensively, you normally take anywhere from -6 to -16 to your attack roll, but with Shield Master, you would only take that penalty when attacking wit the other weapon, but not on the shield. Unless, of course, you are dual-wielding shields. If you dual-wield shields, you can Power Attack, use Combat Expertise and Fight Defensively and you suffer no penalty on the attack roll (including the one from using TWF) and still gain the benefits of the above.
That is the true, secret power of Shield Master that most don't know about. They tend to skip over that part and focus on the double enhancement bonus bit. I made a thread and FAQ'd it awhile back, but there's been no response (and it's unlikely to see one anytime soon).
When something sounds too good to be true, then it's safe to assume that the intention being read into it is not RAI. I'm of the opinion that there is no such thing as RAW; RAW is simply shorthand not for "rules as written" but "the interpretation of the written rules that was intended by the designers".
In this case, the interpretation is way too good to be true and I would never expect anyone at any table to allow it in that fashion - and I wouldn't use it in that fashion if I was playing a character who had it even if the GM allowed it.
And yeah, I'm pretty sure I clicked FAQ on that thread, because it would be good to have the intent spelled-out clearly to dispel any consideration that it really could ever be that powerful.
I agree, and as I said in the post that I firmly believe the intent was to mitigate the TWF penalty. But as written, it's a ridiculously OP feat.