make combat faster and more mobile by tweaking the rules?
I'm trying to figure out a way to do this and to encourage combat to be something more than a few rounds of movement and then everyone standing still and full-attacking. I'd also like to pull it off, if at all possible, without causing irreparable damage to the fundamental game.
My current idea is to remove iterative attacks. So a level 10 fighter would just get the one attack @ +10.
To counter this, every one gets 1 feat at each level, Iterative, Improved Iterative, and Greater Iterative Attack are available feats (so you can still get them if you really want them), and weapon damage die are doubled. So a dagger does 2d4, a great sword does 4d6, a longsword does 2d8, etc etc.
My theory behind it all, is that if I didn't do anything besides outright removing iterative attacks, a caster and his standard action is going to rapidly outstrip a non-caster's standard action.
I don't know how comfortable I am with this idea though. It'll make DR less effective for one thing. For another, I figure martial characters will gravitate toward either taking the Iterative Attack Feat Chain or the Vital Strike Chain now, since the Vital Strikes will amp up weapon damage CONSIDERABLY more than they would otherwise.
Anyone else played around with this idea all? Am I embarking down a hopeless road or is possible to pull this off? Has anyone had any success with this? Found any pitfalls I should avoid?
Removing iterative attacks goes a long way to increase mobility and such, but it also guts the basis of combat character in the game. Making 1 attack hit harder isn't going to compare. It will basically make combat focused characters almost irrelavent except as meat shields. This is a fundamental part of the game. You can remove it without some serious consideration. I dont think your recommended changes will work either. At low levels, doubling the damage dice on weapons will be a huge shift. And penalyzing meleers with having to burn feats when the non combat focused character can spend those extra feats on other things is just going to set them back.
I think you are better off taking a look at 3.5 tome of battle if you want to make things more mobile. Instead of penalyzing full attacks, give players options of things to do as standard actions that are close to as appealing as a full attack. Whatever you think of them, the tome of battle manuevers do that. They also in many cases add mobility to characters, as well as offer more interesting options then just damage. If I were you I would take a long look at them to accomplish my goal.
The Trailblazer variant for iterative attacks solves the problem while keeping the average damage around the same.
It is a great and well-tested rule, I suggest you look into it. I'm not going to repeat it here, but a forum search should turn up the basics, or you can buy the PDF, it has a few other good rules in it.
We've talked about just doing average damage. Work out what your average damage is with and without power attack and on critical hits and there is a whole lot of dice rolling that doesn't have to be done.
Combat doesn't really slow down noticeably until after level ten so it will be a while before it becomes a problem again since we are between Pathfinder campaigns at the moment.
Are you the GM? You can just move the monsters around so it doesn't turn into a suggestion.
Or give the vital strike chain for free so they have the incentive to move around.
many good criticisms
Yeah, I realized that doubling weapon damage at the lower levels would be a critical shift but failed to mention it. It's mildly moot since I'm leaning toward starting things at 5th level, but it's a valid point nonetheless.
I'm not familiar with Tome of Battle at all except from wild rumors of its overwhelming munchkininess. I'll poke around and see if I can dig up some ideas from it.
things about Trailblazer
This is another thing that I've no experience with outside of passing heresay. I'll look into this too and see if it might not offer a better solution.
suggestions regarding triming down dice rolls
I think my group would wind up resenting me if I went in this direction. If they're not rolling dice, there's little they're doing beside simply narrating actions. They really enjoy the randomness that dice bring to the game. Otherwise, you're right - this would definitely speed things up.
ideas about opponents and free vital strikes
I am indeed running it. And yeah, I could keep iterative attacks in place and just have the bad guys shift around more, but that's just not something many monsters would do. If the party's up against some huge beaters like a bunch of ogres, those things aren't going to be doing hit and run stuff. Though you are right in saying that I can force combat to be more mobile, I'm trying to make that feel more organic within the system than it does now. Let me say it this way - I don't want greater mobility in combat to come entirely from the party reacting to the bad guys' actions, I'd like them to steer it in that direction too.
Vital Strikes for free are a pretty decent idea. It'd be a boon to the melee/archery oriented characters and not benefit the casters overmuch.
Thanks for all the feedback, guys - s'been quite helpful!
I'm working on some houserules for the cmapiagn im working on: Basically what I have noticed with pathfinder is that attacks of ooportunity bog down mobility a lot because, lets face it, no one wants to take free hits, also, attacking more than once forces you to stay in one spot, which makes fighters interesting as watching paint dry. So here's what I'm gonna test out, feel free to use or critique:
• No attacks of opportunity, instead units must spend 5 feet per enemy who would have gotten an attack of opportunity .
• As a result, some skills, feats, spells, special abilities, will now interact differently.
• To use a standard actions such as attacking or casting a spell, a unit must spend 5 feet of movement.
• There are no longer full round actions, instead a unit must spend an extra 5 feet of movement to use a standard action (provided the unit has sufficient base attack bonus, extra attacks via feats, via a spell etc., it can attack again spending 5 feet of movement) and it costs 10 extra movement speed to cast a full round action spell, or miscellaneous action that consume an equal amount of time. Swift and free actions consume no movement (but the old restrictions still apply).
• All units get 1 counter action per turn, which they can use to
respond to enemy actions directed at them, provided that they can act accordingly (A ranged attack versus a ranged attack, or long range spell, a melee attack versus a melee attack, etc.)
• Ranged attacks made while near an enemy unit take a -4 penalty (unless the attacking units has the point blank master feat, or a weapon that is easy to fire while adjacent to an enemy (such as a crossbow, gun, or the like).
• Casting spells while near an enemy gives a +2 bonus on attacks or d20 confirmation rolls to the enemy if said enemy is using a counter action against the caster.
• Players can choose to apply either Strength or Constitution to Fortitude saves, Dexterity or Intelligence to reflex saves, and Wisdom or Charisma to Will saves. (this last one has nothing to do with mobility in battle, I just like this rule from 4.0)
Threatened squares makes movement difficult, for each threatened square that you move in to, you must spend an additional 5 feet of movement to pass through per enemy, if you cannot expend additional movement speed, you immediately stop moving.
Actions that would have provoked an attack of opportunity now instead give a +2 bonus on any counter action taken against the unit that would have provoked an attack of opportunity.
Each action, now has a counter action, but only once per round, unless the creature possesses the combat reflexes feat, which gives more counter actions equal to the dexterity modifier.
Feat Changes:
Feat Name Prerequisites New Benefits
Combat Expertise None Gain +2 bonus dodge to armor class, +2 to CMD, +1 and all saves when an enemy uses a counter action against you.
Combat Casting* None +2 armor class when you are subject of a counter action while casting a spell.
Improved Disarm* Combat Expertise +2 bonus to disarm attemps, can be used as part of a counter action.
Improved Trip* Combat Expertise +2 bonus to trip attemps, can be used as part of a counter action.
Greater Trip* Combat Expertise Immediately gain an attack against a target you just tripped.
Whirlwind Attack* Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +4 Make one melee attack against all foes within reach.
Combat Reflexes* None Gain additional counter actions per turn equal to your dexterity.
Disruptive* 6th level fighter Enemies must spend 10 feet of additional movement to cast spells near you.
Spellbreaker* Disruptive, 10th level fighter Gain a free counter action against an enemy who finished casting a spell near you.
Mobility* Dodge Don't expend extra movement when passing by the first 4 enemy units.
Endurance* None Double the amount of negative hit point total that you can take before dying and a +4 bonus on checks to avoid nonlethal damage
Improved Counterspell None Can attempt to counterspell as an immediate action, but you lose your next standard action, can counterspell with spell of same school.
Improved Grapple Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike +2 bonus to grapple attempts, can be used as part of a counter action.
Weapon Focus* None Gain +1 attack with one weapon group (see Fighter chart).
Greater Weapon Focus* Weapon Focus with weapon group, Fighter level 8 Gain an additional +1 attack with the selected weapon group.
Weapon Specialization* Weapon Focus with weapon group, Fighter level 4 Gain +2 damage with selected weapon group.
Greater Weapon Specialization* Greater Weapon Focus with weapon group,
Weapon specialization with weapon group, Fighter level 12 Gain an additional +2 damage with selected weapon group.
Bodyguard* Combat Reflexes Use a counter action to attempt to take the damage of an adjacent ally, roll a reflex save (DC = 5 + damage dealt).
In Harm's way* Bodyguard Gain a +10 bonus on your bodyguard attempt.
Combat Patrol* Combat Reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5 Increase your threatened area by 5 feet per 5 points of base attack bonus.
Improved Dirty Trick* Combat Expertise +2 bonus to dirty trick attemps, can be used as part of a counter action.
Improved Drag* Power Attack +2 bonus to drag attemps, can be used as part of a counter action.
Gliding Steps Dodge, Mobility, Nimble Moves, ki pool Spend 1 ki point to avoid spending additional movement speed until the end of your turn.
Greater Drag* Improved Drag, base attack bonus +6 Enemies you drag give one free counter action to nearby allies.
Improved Reposition* Combat Expertise +2 bonus to reposition attemps, can be used as part of a counter action.
Greater Reposition* Improved Reposition, base attack bonus +6 Enemies you reposition give one free counter action to nearby allies.
Improved Steal* Combat Expertise +2 bonus to steal attemps, can be used as part of a counter action.
Point-Blank Master* Weapon Specialization with a ranged weapon group Can use ranged weapon while near an enemy without an attack penalty.
Teleport Tactician* Combat Reflexes, Disruptive, Spellbreaker
Teleport along with nearby teleporting enemy and gain one free counter action at the end of the effect.
Ki Stand Ki pool Stand up as a swift action, and spend 1 ki point to gain a +2 dodge bonus to armor class until the end of your turn.
Warrior Priest Ability to cast divine spells, domain or mystery class feautre Gain +2 bonus to initiative and a +1 dodge bonus to armor class when you are subject of a counter action.
...Basically what I have noticed with pathfinder is that attacks of ooportunity bog down mobility a lot because, lets face it, no one wants to take free hits, also, attacking more than once forces you to stay in one spot, which makes fighters interesting as watching paint dry...
I agree with you that the standing full attack action w/ iterative attacks encourages characters to plant their feet and slug it out until whoever they're next to drops. And I also agree that it gets super boring.
However, instead of removing AoO's (because while players may not like to suffer them, mine at least sure do like to make them), I'm considering doing more with standard actions. After reading through some Trailblazer like Evil Lincoln suggested I'm considering adopting something similar to their approach with regard to iterative attacks.
Namely, as a standard action, characters can attack with the following scale:
- BAB +6 = one attack at +6 OR two at +2/+2
- BAB +11 = one attack at +11 OR two at +8/+8
- BAB +16 = one attack at +16 OR two at +14/+14
My knee jerk reaction is to limit feats like Vital Strike and Cleave to just one of the attacks, rather than both. I like, conceptually at least, how this looks like it will work with Spring Attack.
Weapon Focus* None Gain +1 attack with one weapon group (see Fighter chart).
Greater Weapon Focus* Weapon Focus with weapon group, Fighter level 8 Gain an additional +1 attack with the selected weapon group.
I like this, turning these toward weapon groups rather than specific weapons. That opens up much more flexibility just in the treasure the party can get and effectively use. I like it. I'm gonna use it.
My one overall criticism of your main mechanic is, since it works entirely off of movement, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes are more adversely affected than the other core races. Regardless of that though, I'd be interested in hearing how it plays out in your group.
...Basically what I have noticed with pathfinder is that attacks of ooportunity bog down mobility a lot because, lets face it, no one wants to take free hits, also, attacking more than once forces you to stay in one spot, which makes fighters interesting as watching paint dry...I agree with you that the standing full attack action w/ iterative attacks encourages characters to plant their feet and slug it out until whoever they're next to drops. And I also agree that it gets super boring.
However, instead of removing AoO's (because while players may not like to suffer them, mine at least sure do like to make them), I'm considering doing more with standard actions. After reading through some Trailblazer like Evil Lincoln suggested I'm considering adopting something similar to their approach with regard to iterative attacks.
Namely, as a standard action, characters can attack with the following scale:
- BAB +6 = one attack at +6 OR two at +2/+2
- BAB +11 = one attack at +11 OR two at +8/+8
- BAB +16 = one attack at +16 OR two at +14/+14
My knee jerk reaction is to limit feats like Vital Strike and Cleave to just one of the attacks, rather than both. I like, conceptually at least, how this looks like it will work with Spring Attack.
Weapon Focus* None Gain +1 attack with one weapon group (see Fighter chart).
Greater Weapon Focus* Weapon Focus with weapon group, Fighter level 8 Gain an additional +1 attack with the selected weapon group.
I like this, turning these toward weapon groups rather than specific weapons. That opens up much more flexibility just in the treasure the party can get and effectively use. I like it. I'm gonna use it.
My one overall criticism of your main mechanic is, since it works entirely off of movement, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes are more adversely affected than the other core races. Regardless of that though, I'd be interested in hearing how it plays out in your group.
Yeah I changed that so it adds a bit more flexibility, what is the point of knowing how to use all simple and martial weapons if you are only gonna use only one 90% of the time.