Hi all, so as we're just about at the end of CC I thought would pose a question about something that has been bothering me as I've been reading through the APs to date.
Firstly, I renewed by sub for this AP having been a long-time player and fan of Ravenloft back in the 2e days and other horror rpgs CoC and Kult.
I acknowledge and even like that each adventure is pretty self-contained (e.g. here's the Frankenstein adventure, the ghost-busting adventure, the werewolf adventure etc.)
The adventures thus far have some great stuff, Trial of the Beast and the whole scenario of defending the Flesh Golem in court, great. The Lovecraft blender in Wake, fun stuff. Real sort of Hammer Horror approach on the whole. So, I am looking forward to running this AP.
However, my main issue with the AP is how the adventures are connected. Each adventure essentially starts with following the Whispering Way cultists as they go about picking up their ingredients for their evil ritual. And each adventure is so far essentially cleaning up the mess they left behind in obtaining said items and ending with an 'aww we missed them again'. Sure you catch up with Vrood at the end of Broken Moon which give some satisfaction for players that they get their man.
In a way its that classic rod of seven parts trope in reverse. Where the villains are getting all the pieces needed and the heroes are trying to stop them.
I realize the challenge is that to have the big climax at the end of the campaign the bad guys need to have obtained the ingredients so this is perhaps the reason for the linking structure. I don't mind using it once or twice but in reading through the campaign it feels very repetitive and I would imagine a bit frustrating for players. So my question to folks is can we think of ways to tweak the connecting hooks to give the players some variety and hopefully the feeling that they are acting rather than reacting. I feel that the connection b/w Harrowstone and Trial is fine but certainly leading into Broken Moon and Wake and Ashes could use some adjusting.
That or if you think i'm overly concerned about this.
I don't think it is an issue, but I don't know your players either. If they need it then let them get their hands on an item so they can feel like they accomplished something. Later(last book) they can find out the Carrion Crown was just the easier or two ways to get the job done, or that the ingredients being gathered were the best chance, but not the only way to make the Carrion Crown idea work.
I read the adventure like a detective story with you getting clues as to where you should go next to find out what the big plan was. Getting the formula is only one part of the plan. Making sure they don't let the plan succeed is the part.
Try looking at the adventure like this.
The Haunting of Harrowstone, Trial of the Beast, and Broken Moon form the first full arc of the campaign. The players don't really start following the way until Broken Moon, at which point they know a bit of what the Way is doing, but have no context to put it in. The arc finishes with them catching up to Vrood. At that point, the players have avenged the Professor.
The second arc is now an attempt to stop the Way's larger plan. It starts with a victory in Illmarsh, moves to tracking down the leadership in Caliphas, then on the the final climax at Gallowspire.
There's enough going on to keep the campaign from being "Missed them again", especially when they don't know who they're really looking for until the very end of Trial of the Beast. If your players seem to get frustrated, try and highlight their successes and the fact that the Way has been collecting these items since before Lorrimor died.
For what it's worth:
The intention of the authors appears to be that the PCs don't fully understand that they're chasing the Whispering Way until the end of the second book. They then catch up to one of the cell leaders in the third book, but he has already sent off the ingredients collected so far. Then, in the fourth book, the PCs actually do manage to get one of the ingredients the Dark Riders were seeking for themselves--presumably, one which will prove optional to the riddle, but preventing the Way from confiscating and destroying an artifact of Pharasma is a pretty significant victory.
EDIT: And Tobias said it even better than me, and before I finished.
Thanks for the responses. I feel that looking it as Tobias mentioned in arcs should help particularly if I work to make Vrood a bit more of a known quantity so that when the party tracks him down there is a greater satisfaction and then investigation opens up the next plot layer.
That said, I'm still inclined to put in some side trek or opportunity to get the drop on some WW cultists perhaps a lodge somewhere b/w Broken Moon and Illmarsh. The heroes can make a plan, ambush, break some heads and maybe unearth a thing or two to help them later.
Wyrd. First off, super glad to see a Ravenloft fan digging the AP. A lot of the campaign is my love letter to fond memories gaming in that world. Second, you're not wrong, linking AP volumes - especially without throwing the end boss right in front of the train that is the PCs - is one of the most challenging parts of these series. (Check out the foreword to Pathfinder # 48 for a few of my thoughts on this.) But also remember, individual GMs have worlds more ability to customize to the needs of their groups and their own personal tastes than we do. While we couldn't say in adventure #2 that the PCs get a list of what the Whispering Way needs or where their cells are active for fear that half the parties out there would jump whole adventures, that (or something like that) might be more of an option for you. The idea of injecting a sense of urgency, maybe even sending half of the group to one location and half to another, trying to not just keep on the heels but even keep ahead of the W. Way could make a group feel much more like counter agents than a clean-up crew. In the best case, I think a clever GM could really make the PCs feel like they're Van Helsing and crew trying to beat Dracula back to Transylvania, trying to guess his route, facing traps and finding misinformation he's left to stymie them, and doing their best to find faster routes across the land.
If you're interested in taking things off the rails like this, I'd totally suggest you pick up Classic Horrors Revisited and the Rival Guide. Classic Horrors because it has a ton of thematically perfect threats to challenge the PCs, especially as they get toward higher level. CR 14 is kind of a sweet spot for that book, which makes several of the creatures good bosses and minibosses. The werewolf might make an especially good agent to act against the PCs once the W. Way know they're being followed. Rival Guide also works great thanks to it's maybe not so secret goal of presenting a rival group for use in each Adventure Path. The "Carrion Crown" party has like an invisible man, a human-looking ghoul, and other character built to oppose players of this campaign, though once again the sweet spot is in the low teens. If any one (or all) of these NPCs suddenly become agents of the W. Way trying to keep the PCs off Adrissant's trail - or, at least buy him the time he needs - you've got opponents you can use anywhere. That way, if the PCs decide after adventure two or three they're going to try and ambush the Whispering Way in Vauntil, you can let them try that, give them an opponent to challenge them so the attempt isn't just wasted time, and use information in that enemy's possession to lead the party back onto the path of the series while keeping up the illusion of total PC free will.
Making customizations like this involves a bit more effort on the GM's part, but we constantly try to produce supplementary material to make this easier, whether it be monsters in the bestiary in every AP volume or tightly tied-in products like those I mentioned above. The recipe metaphor actually works pretty well when it comes to APs. Although the directions right off the cake mix box are going to make you a fantastic cake, those directions are written to appeal to the widest possible tastes. But if you throw in your own dashes, make your own embellishments, and decorate to suit the tastes of those you're making it for, it's going to be even better.
And personally, going the "Chase Dracula" route I mentioned above is probably the way I'd run it.
Try looking at the adventure like this.
Super valid and nicely put. Great advice there.
Hi there Wes, thanks for the reply and info. Always great to hear from Paizo staff/writers. Throughout reading the AP and Rule of Fear I certainly picked up much of the love letter vibe to Ravenloft. I am looking forward to running this. Should be a lot of fun.
I think much of what you mentioned hit my concerns especially counter-agents vs. clean up crew and the Van Helsing comparison. And of course being able to make adapations specific for the group will strengthen the play. I would add that having ran STAP and CoCT I felt that you guys have done a good job of putting enough raw material (setting, supplementary) to help that along for both GMs and players.
If any one (or all) of these NPCs suddenly become agents of the W. Way trying to keep the PCs off Adrissant's trail - or, at least buy him the time he needs - you've got opponents you can use anywhere. That way, if the PCs decide after adventure two or three they're going to try and ambush the Whispering Way in Vauntil, you can let them try that, give them an opponent to challenge them so the attempt isn't just wasted time, and use information in that enemy's possession to lead the party back onto the path of the series while keeping up the illusion of total PC free will.
I'll file that one for future use! And yep that cuts to what I was thinking of was crafting hooks to keep that party going but giving the sense of action rather than reaction.
While we couldn't say in adventure #2 that the PCs get a list of what the Whispering Way needs or where their cells are active for fear that half the parties out there would jump whole adventures, that (or something like that) might be more of an option for you.
In thinking about the campaign I have thought of the structure from CoC's Masks of Nylarthotep which I always admired wherein the first adventure provided clues leading to just about all of the adventure locations and it was from there fairly free form as to the sequence of play until the final chapter. Of course in D&D this isn't as feasible due to the level mechanics. But it is a thought for now. Well thanks for the advice I might check out the Faction Guide as I had picked up the Horrors Revisited earlier. Have a good one.
While we couldn't say in adventure #2 that the PCs get a list of what the Whispering Way needs or where their cells are active for fear that half the parties out there would jump whole adventures, that (or something like that) might be more of an option for you. The idea of injecting a sense of urgency, maybe even sending half of the group to one location and half to another, trying to not just keep on the heels but even keep ahead of the W. Way could make a group feel much more like counter agents than a clean-up crew. In the best case, I think a clever GM could really make the PCs feel like they're Van Helsing and crew trying to beat Dracula back to Transylvania, trying to guess his route, facing traps and finding misinformation he's left to stymie them, and doing their best to find faster routes across the land.
This... this... is amazing!!!!
One of my all-time favorite boardgame is The Fury of Dracula, and I've often commented how it would make for a great scaffold for a PnP campaign. You have just unleashed that dream.
I'm already in the process of converting the campaign to E8 for unrelated reasons, so the level-curve issue should be a slightly reduced problem for me. However, this will still take a lot of dev work. My group just finished book 1, so I estimate I have about five weeks to design this plan. I'll post to the boards what I come up with once I get a rough draft hammered out.
Thanks for the inspiration Wes!!
Hard to come in after one of the designers, but I do have one other thought.In the final adventure, ** spoiler omitted **
Why not have this happen because of the PCs' actions? That is, let them stop the WW from gaining all the ingredients. Have AA use some ersatz replacement (and let the PCs know about this, maybe make a spellcraft check -- "That might work, but then again it could lead to disaster!" Then at the penultimate scene, make it clear that what happens, happens because the PCs forced him to use corn syrup instead of cane sugar. ("And if he HAD gotten his hands on that missing piece, you'd be facing an avatar of Tar-Baphon now. So stop whimpering and get your smite on.")
Doug M.
Good idea. I'd definitely let them know that he's found some sort of replacement ingredient so they know the Crown isn't what it should be.