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I have a kobold saint (Book of Exalted Deeds, p185 for the Saint template) that I'm running in Pathfinder. The Saint gains Protective Aura as a supernatural ability which functions as a 20ft radius magic circle against evil that emanates from my kobold continuously.
There's an evil demon that is frozen as a statue, and unable to take actions until someone interacts with what it is holding. This guy is in a room all by himself, kobold walks up and removes the item it is holding, and awakens the demon. This grants the demon a surprise round.
Keep in mind that magic circle against evil grants the Saint protection from evil as well.
How does the Protective Aura function in regards to stumbling into an evil creature that the Saint was unaware even existed? This could even be a creature standing in a hallway with greater invisibility cast on itself which the Saint carelessly bumps into, not necessarily this particular demon statue thing.
My thoughts are that the GM should make whatever spell resistance rolls are necessary (in secret) for the Saint to determine effects of magic circle and pro evil on the evil creature. Then apply the results of those (or any normal effects of magic circle & pro evil if no resistance applies) on the evil creature's surprise round, resulting in the evil creature either recoiling or not being able to attack the Saint with natural weapons - or whatever applies.
Our GM is relying, so far, on the spell descriptions for magic circle and pro evil effects. The problem is: they're intended to be immobile, which a Saint that emanates the effects is not. We are in need of a ruling that would blanket all such instances of the Protective Aura's function in regards to stumbling into an evil creature that the Saint was unaware even existed.
Any thoughts/help?
"The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature."
I reckon the last bit there is what has(unintentionally in this case) happened, and thus no dice.
Had it walked to you, then things would be different.
"The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature."I reckon the last bit there is what has(unintentionally in this case) happened, and thus no dice.
Had it walked to you, then things would be different.
Only if its a summoned demon if it was called or plane shifted then that line doesn't apply.
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A few of the things we tried to debate were:
Whether there was anything that indicated the Protective Aura is visible, we have been treating it as though it is not.
Whether or not a creature in control of a supernatural ability is consciously aware of the ability's effectiveness, including disruption of it.
How to interpret the "forcing" of a creature into the spell's effects, both the 20ft radius of the magic circle and the 1ft protective ward from pro evil.
It's not 'visible', but as it affects creatures then they would be aware they had walked into its radius.
I would argue that a creature would be aware, and would be aware of disruption.
And by forcing, simply that you are moving yourself (and by extension your barrier) into HIS space as opposed to him trying to make his way into yours. In essence, this stops players being able to use the field offensively, and retains it as a defensive (protective!) ability.
Unless the ability states it is visible I would go with nothing seen (unless using a detect x spell). Though the template might have described the creature as glowing, it has been awhile since reading it.
You would not gain any knowledge of a disruption, neither spell provides any sort of "feedback" in their description. They are protections/immunities that also cause certain penalties to a set type/subtype of creature whether or not you realize it as a character. You know it is working or not on you (up or dispelled or you lowered it, etc.), but you don't know if it is working against something else, only an affected creature would know something out of the ordinary is going on, everyone else is blissfully ignorant. You don't know if something is evil via any of these abilities, they don't grant that ability and that isn't a described use in their description. Neither of these are divination spells. Using the ability as a "bumper bubble" is flat out abusing the ability.
"Forcing" would be you approaching something that would normally have a problem approaching you. Even if the demon was statue like, you approached it. It had no ability to move away so you "forced" the effect on them. Think of it in this respect, a polymorphed demon is bluffing and pretending to be injured, your kobold fails the sense motive and rushes in to help them, forcing the creature into the effect. It smiles as it looks up and makes a grab as you broke the effect... Your "ignorance" made it possible for the creature to get close, as was its plan.
Basically your character not knowing doesn't make a difference on whether or not it works. The moment you close the distance you break the effect. It just means you need to play it smart, use detect evil if in doubt. The statue would have radiated and you probably would have done things differently.
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And by forcing, simply that you are moving yourself (and by extension your barrier) into HIS space as opposed to him trying to make his way into yours. In essence, this stops players being able to use the field offensively, and retains it as a defensive (protective!) ability.
Once that barrier envelops the space that the hidden evil creature occupies though, are they motivated to react in some way (and how)?
My view was that you're not "pushing" them, but they're choosing to "recoil" and keep their distance if possible. Even if an evil creature teleports itself into the 20ft radius, I was thinking it should be compelled to recoil, or back away from the effect.
But that logic opens the potential for a creature being locked inside of a room which is entirely consumed by the effect and leaving it nowhere to go. Does it simply choose maximum distance?
My GM wants the scenario to completely nullify both the magic circle and the pro evil effects. He is claiming that interacting with the statue/demon would be justification to break the pro evil physical attack clause. Also voluntarily encapsulating any evil creature within the mobile magic circle would negate its effects entirely, regardless of whether the Saint is consciously aware of the creature's existence.
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Magic circle against evil grants protection from evil and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area. Since the summoned creature did not enter the area (the area was moved to include it) it never even comes up against the barrier. Interestingly, it would gain the benefits of protection from evil as well. However, note that you can run far enough away from the demon to put it out of the boundary areas, which means that the sanctuary type benefits would reapply.
Protection from evil is a barrier of 1 foot, that moves with the subject. The first effect isn't negated. The second effect would remain in effect. The third effect was ended when you grabbed the object, since the third effect is negated when the warded creature "tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature". It may not even be relevant if the demon wasn't summoned. But remember, since the barrier extends 1 foot from you, that distance will include your hand.
If the demon wasnt summoned it can come in the circle anyways and the benifts would still be active on ac and such.
Once that barrier envelops the space that the hidden evil creature occupies though, are they motivated to react in some way (and how)?
They could choose to recoil, they can also choose not to.
The purpose of the aura is to provide a sphere of protection around you to stop them from coming and attacking you, it is not the purpose of the barrier for you to essentially create a ram to push them or force them out of the way. When you advance into their territory you are pushing or 'forcing' them into your space. If they are coming at you then they are pushing or forcing their way into yours.
So its to keep them from coming to you, not the other way around.
making them 'recoil' as you push over them would be compulsion, like a 'Fear' effect, but thats not RAW or RAI in the Protective Aura, so there is no such effect in play.
I think your GM is right sadly.
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Which Protective Aura being a free action to activate (nowhere does it say it requires any action to dismiss, but we've decided on a standard), could I also just dismiss and immediately reactivate the aura to cause a "reset" button?
From my understanding, I'd be resetting 100% of the Pro Evil, but not the Magic Circle if the creature is still within 20ft range of the effect when it's turned back on?
Also: Does knowledge of the evil creature's existence, or lack thereof, affect how the Saint "tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature?"
If the demon wasnt summoned it can come in the circle anyways and the benifts would still be active on ac and such.
Yea, the demon statue was the situation I was in... but involuntarily stumbling into an evil creature that I had no idea existed is the concern - more so than summoned vs. called/plane-shifted.
Which Protective Aura being a free action to activate (nowhere does it say it requires any action to dismiss, but we've decided on a standard), could I also just dismiss and immediately reactivate the aura to cause a "reset" button?
From my understanding, I'd be resetting 100% of the Pro Evil, but not the Magic Circle if the creature is still within 20ft range of the effect when it's turned back on?
Also: Does knowledge of the evil creature's existence, or lack thereof, affect how the Saint "tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature?"
If the demon wasnt summoned it can come in the circle anyways and the benifts would still be active on ac and such.Yea, the demon statue was the situation I was in... but involuntarily stumbling into an evil creature that I had no idea existed is the concern - more so than summoned vs. called/plane-shifted.
Resetting an aura doesn't make it "work" or cause it to reset, it is still the same aura that you forced into the creatures area unknowingly. Maybe after 24 hours I'd allow it as most continous effect auras that cause adverse effects read they can work again after that amount of time.
Your knowledge (or lack of) doesn't mean anything, you broke the effect willingly by walking up to the demon. If the creature was invisible and you moved up on it you'd break the effect. If the creature was low flying (10' high) and you moved up on it, you would break the effect. The effect only works if they approach you willingly, then SR check and or save as normal, if failed they cannot approach you until you close the distance or remove the effect/get dispelled etc.
The end result is the DM laid out a "trap" and you fell into it. If you don't like it, just play "smarter" like I mentioned before, detect evil/magic before going into strange situations so you know not to approach things and break your circle by doing so.