So in a game monday my character decided to grab some holy water and i thought why go to a potion shop and buy it when i can just go to the local church and swag some for free.
my GM says to me "no you cant just take holy water from the church for free, you have to go pay for it"
so i say fine and i look in the book at how much it costs and a vial of holy water costs 25gp, now i thought to myself how can holy water, something that can be assumed to be in large quantaties in just about any non-evil church cost more than a commoner could afford with what he makes in a year.
am i the only one who thinks that logicly the idea of Holy Water costing 25gp is way to much?
Considering it costs 25gp to cast Bless Water in order to MAKE holy water, I'd say it's rather cheap (half the price of what most similar things cost).
The temples you describe are making 0 profit off of its sale (which are likely viewed more as donations for the creation of more holy water).
Well, it's 25 gp of silver powder.
But yes, it's far too expensive for what it should be.
depends on the diety the church is dedicated to. For example, a good diety of healing is likely going to have less of a price, if any then say the god of merchants' church would. Just my thoughts
you can buy 5 flasks of acid for the price of purchasing 2 flasks of holy water. and acid applies against nonevil creatures, is less likely to be resisted than alchemist fire, and does everything that alchemists fire does (just with a better damage type for half the price).
Come again? The Material component is 25 gp - the exact same as the cost to purchase the stuff. The glass vial (or whatever) it comes in isn't even tacked on properly.
Let us not forget (a) holy water can be poured through incorporeal undead; (b) that you get it AT COST; (c) that it does all kinds of icky bad things to evil outsiders; and (d) that you get it AT COST.
Quitcher b*tchin' and suck it up.
I don't think people are understanding what Northbrb is saying.
25 gp is probably about the amount of money a commoner will make in a year.
Where are the churches getting all this money to make holy water from? Logically, that price doesn't make sense.
I don't think people are understanding what Northbrb is saying.
25 gp is probably about the amount of money a commoner will make in a year.
Where are the churches getting all this money to make holy water from? Logically, that price doesn't make sense.
Money collected from donations made by the people or by rich individuals who have the sake of the church at heart? Cast Cure Light Wounds on the occasional wounded adventurer that asks for help at the said church and you receive 30 GP if you make him pay the casting cost, which is more than enough for one flask.
For combat purposes the price is acceptable, though kind of high. For actual religious purposes it's ridiculously expensive. It would cost a fortune to sprinkle holy water on your congregation of commoners every Sunday.
But this is real holy water - suffused with your gods divine touch, not the well water they splash about on Sunday (Assuming that's the particular gods holy day).
I'm sure if a cleric could come up with a cheaper-to-cast spell that channels their god's divine essence into water they would use it.
Until that day we have to use the tools we have.
I don't think people are understanding what Northbrb is saying.
25 gp is probably about the amount of money a commoner will make in a year.
Where are the churches getting all this money to make holy water from? Logically, that price doesn't make sense.
thats prety much my point
you can buy 5 flasks of acid for the price of purchasing 2 flasks of holy water. and acid applies against nonevil creatures, is less likely to be resisted than alchemist fire, and does everything that alchemists fire does (just with a better damage type for half the price).
Alchemists fire continues to burn the following round. Acid does not.
thats prety much my pointI don't think people are understanding what Northbrb is saying.
25 gp is probably about the amount of money a commoner will make in a year.
Where are the churches getting all this money to make holy water from? Logically, that price doesn't make sense.
What makes you think churches are making holy water?
Why would they want it?I guess some in the larger towns and cities will be to sell to passing adventurers.
Other than that?
Unless there's a zombie apocalypse going on the clerics probably have better things to do with their time and money.
you can buy 5 flasks of acid for the price of purchasing 2 flasks of holy water. and acid applies against nonevil creatures, is less likely to be resisted than alchemist fire, and does everything that alchemists fire does (just with a better damage type for half the price).Alchemists fire continues to burn the following round. Acid does not.
Though I've always known that, I can't help but think that, that is a weird kind of acid.
thats prety much my pointI don't think people are understanding what Northbrb is saying.
25 gp is probably about the amount of money a commoner will make in a year.
Where are the churches getting all this money to make holy water from? Logically, that price doesn't make sense.
Did you read my post? Is it an acceptable answer?
Though I've always known that, I can't help but think that, that is a weird kind of acid.you can buy 5 flasks of acid for the price of purchasing 2 flasks of holy water. and acid applies against nonevil creatures, is less likely to be resisted than alchemist fire, and does everything that alchemists fire does (just with a better damage type for half the price).Alchemists fire continues to burn the following round. Acid does not.
Obviously it's a fairly weak acid, since its reaction doesn't persist. Which makes me wonder, is the reason more powerful acids aren't available for sale that most alchemists can't make it at all, find it too useful to sell for mere gold, or simply can't find a good packaging system? I mean, for sale to adventurers, how many people are going to go ahead and buy an extremely potent, vitriolic acid and carry it around in a glass vial? If it's in their backpack, and they get slammed against a wall, it could eat through their stuff, and if it's attached to their belt, it could get broken by an errant attack and eat through the adventurer... ;D
Sure, the iconic art depicts adventurers tossing around glass containers all over the place, but would a really practical adventurer use that as an option? Alchemist's Fire is safe as long as it's not exposed to air, the rules say so straight out, so you could probably keep it inside a hardened wax-sealed container - the wax breaks on impact allows air in, and *boomph* instant fire. Acid is trickier to carry!
{End tounge-in-cheek remarks.}
As far as holy water goes, in all of my depictions of gaming universes (well prepared depictions, the issue has never come up in play), there's a difference between Holy Water that costs 25gp and is made with the Bless Water spell and "holy water" that might be used in religious rites and ceremonies.
In the absence of that distinction, though, I would turn to the old Medieval Churches examples wherein the Church not only expected a tithe or donation from parishioners, but also usually owned land, usually farmland, that was either worked during the week by the clerical staff itself or by locals.
Its effective against incorporeal undead. Thats pretty potent for something you get at-cost, right?
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I don't think people are understanding what Northbrb is saying.
25 gp is probably about the amount of money a commoner will make in a year.
Where are the churches getting all this money to make holy water from? Logically, that price doesn't make sense.
Your calculations are off regarding commoner income, from one of the many threads regarding commoner income and PF economy:
According to the profession skill a trained worker will make 1/2 his profession check a week in gold. Going with a level 1 character with one skill point a wisdom of 12 (hardly high, but not low either), masterwork tools and his class skill bonus we have a +7 to his roll. Averaging a 10 he'll get a 17 on his check or about 8.5gp a week.
Now I've noticed that it seems like most NPCs are actually around level 3~5 and as such each level pass first would be .5 extra GP a week.IF the NPC has skill focus on his skill (and why wouldn't he? After all he's not an adventurer skill focus on making more money makes sense for him) he'll make an extra 1.5 gp a week putting him up to 10gp a week.
Which is about in line with what you could do with a DC20 perform check in a week's time.
So for skilled labor/ anything covered by a profession I would go with the assumption that the "average" worker is making between 10~15 gp a week, or about 520~780 gp a year.
So your commoner would take a week or two to have enough to buy holy water. With expenses and other stuff it might take him a while to pay for it but he can afford it as well as any other 1st level character might.
you can buy 5 flasks of acid for the price of purchasing 2 flasks of holy water. and acid applies against nonevil creatures, is less likely to be resisted than alchemist fire, and does everything that alchemists fire does (just with a better damage type for half the price).
A flask of acid costs 10g.
In addition to the commoner gold correction above, I think there is a confusion on Holy Water vs Blessed Water.
Blessed Water is made by the barrel full, all it takes is a Cleric or Priest saying a prayer over it. This is what they put out in the church for worshippers to touch to their brow, and what the priest uses to sprinkle on the congregation. A bishop might use actual Holy Water, not Blessed Water. But then, he's a bishop, duh!
Do you assume that all Commoners have a Profession? Do you assume that they all own Masterwork tools? As for the Skill Focus issue, I can think of many reasons a given Commoner might not have it since not all of them are "optimized" for making money.
Well, since the system says any job is determined using Profession, yeah, most if not all commoners are going to have a Profession skill of some sort. And the MW tools is just a +2, so let's say the guy is 1st level and a noob, so he doesn't have them.
WIS : +0
Skill : 1 Rank
Take 10 : Roll 11
Weekly GP : 5.5
Annual GP : 286 gp
This is for the most minimally trained dufus in the world, the lazy guy who put the minimum amount of effort into being whatever he is professionally. He didn't buy any tools he didn't have to, he didn't put in any extra training, and so on. So even the biggest laziest dufus in the world makes enough gold to afford a holy water every 6 months. He also makes enough to pay for MW tools (55gp) after about 6 months as well. Having them would get him an additional 1gp per week, and pay for themselves in a year. Granted, this is a dufus who's lazy, so he probably won't spend them, but it's not a hard purchase decision if you aren't a lazy dufus.
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To really take it to extremes let us say he is also very unwise i.e. he has a 3 wisdom.
WIS : -4
Skill : 1 Rank
Class skill: +3 (profession is a class skill for commoners)
Take 10 : Roll 10
Weekly GP : 5
Annual GP : 260 gp
adjusting mdt's calculation to include to class skill bonus we get an annual GP of: 364 gp for the lazy dufus
I would also like to note the SRD's list of most common professions:
The most common Profession skills are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
notice how many very commoner type professions there are and that is not even an exhaustive list.
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I feel I should point out this from the Profession skill too:
Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.
So with a 365 day year you are getting 36.5 gp a year for the stupidest laziest guy. The fellow who bothers to learn the minimum about a profession can increase his income seven fold. Someone who puts some effort into it (Abraham's example) increases his income 20 fold.
So the punks who are too lazy to learn a profession cannot afford your precious holy water. Someone who manages to learn the very basic information about a profession can buy plenty of holy water.
In addition to the commoner gold correction above, I think there is a confusion on Holy Water vs Blessed Water.
Blessed Water is made by the barrel full, all it takes is a Cleric or Priest saying a prayer over it. This is what they put out in the church for worshippers to touch to their brow, and what the priest uses to sprinkle on the congregation. A bishop might use actual Holy Water, not Blessed Water. But then, he's a bishop, duh!
"Components V, S, M (5 pounds of powdered silver worth 25 gp)
...
Target flask of water touched"
Hardly looks like barrels of water to me. There is only one kind of holy water, and it does have an effect and a high price tag.
Everything else is just water.
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Hardly looks like barrels of water to me. There is only one kind of holy water, and it does have an effect and a high price tag.
Yep. Only he wasn't talking about Holy Water, he was talking about Blessed Water. You won't find a spell for making it, because it doesn't require a spell. You won't find a price for it, because it's the same price as regular water. It's just water that a priest has said a prayer over. Not a spell, a prayer. Hell, if the priest wished, he could say that prayer over a whole lake. Said lake water would then be blessed water. Not good for use against undead, evil outsiders, etc; but perfectly find for ritual ceremonies.
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OT a bit but I thought I might calculate the outside example of commoner gold. 20th level commoner (unlikely I know but hey his city sees a lot of fighting), 10 pt build -all into WIS so 10 in everything but 16 in WIS.
He own MW tools, he has a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6. WIS =21 (all ability increases into it), +6 from headband=28.
He has Profession (baker):
Wis: +8
Class Skill: +3
Skill Rank: 20
Tools: +2
Take 10: Roll=43
GP per week = 21, 52 weeks a year gives us 1,092 gp per year.
I could have gone a little crazier with a higher point but and some sort of magic oven but I though I would keep it within a range of possibility.
OT a bit but I thought I might calculate the outside example of commoner gold. 20th level commoner (unlikely I know but hey his city sees a lot of fighting), 10 pt build -all into WIS so 10 in everything but 16 in WIS.
He own MW tools, he has a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6. WIS =21 (all ability increases into it), +6 from headband=28.
He has Profession (baker):
Wis: +8
Class Skill: +3
Skill Rank: 20
Tools: +2
Take 10: Roll=43GP per week = 21, 52 weeks a year gives us 1,092 gp per year.
I could have gone a little crazier with a higher point but and some sort of magic oven but I though I would keep it within a range of possibility.
Funny thing... Assuming a non-zero likelihood of the various factors that contributed to the creation of this hypothetical NPC, in a large enough statistical universe, he exists! (And makes a fine, fine livin')
OT a bit but I thought I might calculate the outside example of commoner gold. 20th level commoner (unlikely I know but hey his city sees a lot of fighting), 10 pt build -all into WIS so 10 in everything but 16 in WIS.
He own MW tools, he has a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6. WIS =21 (all ability increases into it), +6 from headband=28.
He has Profession (baker):
Wis: +8
Class Skill: +3
Skill Rank: 20
Tools: +2
Take 10: Roll=43GP per week = 21, 52 weeks a year gives us 1,092 gp per year.
I could have gone a little crazier with a higher point but and some sort of magic oven but I though I would keep it within a range of possibility.
Why on earth does this guy have a +6 headband, but not Skill Focus and a +4/+4 feat? He could have an additional +10 bonus!
What else is he going to do with his feats anyways? He could be making 1,378go per year easily! Make him a human and he can have both feats at 1st-level.
I do think holy water costs a bit much, I'd be inclined to have one spell create enough for three vials of holy water, charge 10 gold for it at the local church and it comes in a stylish vial at that price, that way they make a little profit making stylish ceramic vials.
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Hardly looks like barrels of water to me. There is only one kind of holy water, and it does have an effect and a high price tag.Yep. Only he wasn't talking about Holy Water, he was talking about Blessed Water. You won't find a spell for making it, because it doesn't require a spell. You won't find a price for it, because it's the same price as regular water. It's just water that a priest has said a prayer over. Not a spell, a prayer. Hell, if the priest wished, he could say that prayer over a whole lake. Said lake water would then be blessed water. Not good for use against undead, evil outsiders, etc; but perfectly find for ritual ceremonies.
+1
I assume there are a whole lot of daily-life prayers/rites/orisions/spells out there that adventurers never bother with. Bless Water. Bless Animals. Detect Pregnancy. etc.
Stuff that mixed up Holy Water with Blessed Water
Hardly looks like barrels of water to me. There is only one kind of holy water, and it does have an effect and a high price tag.
Everything else is just water.
Walk into a temple and tell the priest that his blessed water is just water. Tell him his blessed holy symbol is just a pound of carved wood. Tell him his god is just an overgrown outsider.
Priests and Clerics bless things all the time. It doesn't mean it get's a game mechanic benefit any more than having the Pope bless your wedding gives it a magical 'This marriage will not fail' guarantee. It just means he blessed it. But, to the faithful, it is not 'just water' or 'just words'.
Obviously, to your mind, anything that has no mechanical benefit is 'just words'. This to me says you prefer your R in RPG to stand for roll.
My point was, that the OP stated that priests were throwing around Holy Water on their flocks every week, and I pointed out that no, they use blessed water instead, which is a barrel of water that's had the gods blessing pronounced upon it. Probably with some herbs thrown in to make it smell special.
Your attempt to equate my 'blessed water' to some mechanical benefit, and attempt to portray me as not understanding mechanical rules vs fluff, is rather pathetic.
Hardly looks like barrels of water to me. There is only one kind of holy water, and it does have an effect and a high price tag.Yep. Only he wasn't talking about Holy Water, he was talking about Blessed Water. You won't find a spell for making it, because it doesn't require a spell. You won't find a price for it, because it's the same price as regular water. It's just water that a priest has said a prayer over. Not a spell, a prayer. Hell, if the priest wished, he could say that prayer over a whole lake. Said lake water would then be blessed water. Not good for use against undead, evil outsiders, etc; but perfectly find for ritual ceremonies.
Woah, people actually reading my posts and taking time to understand them!
I may have to set aside my jaded cynicism of these boards. :)
+1I assume there are a whole lot of daily-life prayers/rites/orisions/spells out there that adventurers never bother with. Bless Water. Bless Animals. Detect Pregnancy. etc.
Agreed, I wouldn't be surprised if you totaled up all the rituals and prayers and good luck charms in the average real world religion that it would be in the thousands. Multiply that by 20 religions, each in different countries, with different backgrounds, and I'm sure it's in the millions.
Clearly what is actually called "Holy Water" is in fact a mud-brick of silver that you break over some undead schmucks head. That's why it costs so much.
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Clearly what is actually called "Holy Water" is in fact a mud-brick of silver that you break over some undead schmucks head. That's why it costs so much.
At 5 lbs of powdered silver, I'm going to buy a lot of holy water, let it evaporate away, then sell the 5 lbs of powdered silver for a hell of a lot more than 25 gp.
I JUST BROKE PATHFINDER!
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Clearly what is actually called "Holy Water" is in fact a mud-brick of silver that you break over some undead schmucks head. That's why it costs so much.
Our group has been making this joke for years - holy water hurts undead because you just hit them with a five pound chunk of wet silver.
Given that the end result of the bless water spell is a single vial of holy water, I suspect that nearly all of the silver is whisked away as payment to the Gawd(ess) that granted the spell. The rest of it, say 1%, is suspended within the water to hold the spark of divine power that let's the water do what it does. 8/10ths of an ounce of silver isn't worth very much ...
Isn't the silver a material component, and as such is effectively destroyed/used up during the spellcasting? There's no mixing involved. More like a small sacrifice or something.
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Given that the end result of the bless water spell is a single vial of holy water, I suspect that nearly all of the silver is whisked away as payment to the Gawd(ess) that granted the spell. The rest of it, say 1%, is suspended within the water to hold the spark of divine power that let's the water do what it does. 8/10ths of an ounce of silver isn't worth very much ...
Nope,
The silver is condensed down as if it had been placed under several hundred gravities, so what you're doing is hitting the undead with a vial of water that has 5 lbs of hyper dense silver inside it. The water is actually a protective fluid that keeps the micro-gravity field generated by condensing 5 lbs of silver down to the size of one piece of glitter from destroying the owner.When the vial breaks against the undead, or when you pour it on the undead, the undead is actually being damaged by having a miniature black hole pass through it. Fortunately, it's a micro-black hole so it evaporates within a few seconds after the water that keeps it stable disappears.
Given that the end result of the bless water spell is a single vial of holy water, I suspect that nearly all of the silver is whisked away as payment to the Gawd(ess) that granted the spell. The rest of it, say 1%, is suspended within the water to hold the spark of divine power that let's the water do what it does. 8/10ths of an ounce of silver isn't worth very much ...Nope,
The silver is condensed down as if it had been placed under several hundred gravities, so what you're doing is hitting the undead with a vial of water that has 5 lbs of hyper dense silver inside it. The water is actually a protective fluid that keeps the micro-gravity field generated by condensing 5 lbs of silver down to the size of one piece of glitter from destroying the owner.When the vial breaks against the undead, or when you pour it on the undead, the undead is actually being damaged by having a miniature black hole pass through it. Fortunately, it's a micro-black hole so it evaporates within a few seconds after the water that keeps it stable disappears.
Nuh-uh! ;P
Also:
5 gp One pound of salt or silver
Ergo, 5 pounds of silver is 25 gp.
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I never liked the use of silver to make holy water as it has the same problem of the endless stream of diamonds consumed to cast resurrection, raise dead and restoration.
Using a non renewable resource.
As spell components are mostly fluff I go for the oils worth X gp used in reincarnation.
The caster use oils and balsams imported from far away lands or requiring long preparations and sold by his church. At the end of the day the cost is the same, but there isn't the problem of procuring several flawless 10.000 gp diamonds to resurrect your friends killed in combat.
OT a bit but I thought I might calculate the outside example of commoner gold. 20th level commoner (unlikely I know but hey his city sees a lot of fighting), 10 pt build -all into WIS so 10 in everything but 16 in WIS.
He own MW tools, he has a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6. WIS =21 (all ability increases into it), +6 from headband=28.
He has Profession (baker):
Wis: +8
Class Skill: +3
Skill Rank: 20
Tools: +2
Take 10: Roll=43GP per week = 21, 52 weeks a year gives us 1,092 gp per year.
I could have gone a little crazier with a higher point but and some sort of magic oven but I though I would keep it within a range of possibility.
Why on earth does this guy have a +6 headband, but not Skill Focus and a +4/+4 feat? He could have an additional +10 bonus!
What else is he going to do with his feats anyways? He could be making 1,378go per year easily! Make him a human and he can have both feats at 1st-level.
Not to mention various racial mods, with heart of the fields the baker in question can bake 60.78 gold of bread a day!
This thread started as something else didn't it...
Silver can be imported indefinitely from the plain of earth, just like diamonds can.I never liked the use of silver to make holy water as it has the same problem of the endless stream of diamonds consumed to cast resurrection, raise dead and restoration.
Using a non renewable resource.
As spell components are mostly fluff I go for the oils worth X gp used in reincarnation.
The caster use oils and balsams imported from far away lands or requiring long preparations and sold by his church. At the end of the day the cost is the same, but there isn't the problem of procuring several flawless 10.000 gp diamonds to resurrect your friends killed in combat.
Still I bet risking war with the local shaitan overlord will inflate prices.. a bit