Do Words of Power just suck?

[Quatar]

I was wondering, are they just terrible?

When I search for them, most I get are threads from the playtest, and from what I gathered from them, they got changed alot in print, so most of them aren't reliable really.

But I would have expected alot more threads about them, there are tons about magus and the other UM stuff, but barely anything on WoP.

So, are they just too complicated so people don't try them, or are they so bad that noone actually wants to?

[Starbuck_II]

Quatar wrote:

I was wondering, are they just terrible?

When I search for them, most I get are threads from the playtest, and from what I gathered from them, they got changed alot in print, so most of them aren't reliable really.

But I would have expected alot more threads about them, there are tons about magus and the other UM stuff, but barely anything on WoP.

So, are they just too complicated so people don't try them, or are they so bad that noone actually wants to?

The playtest was better in my opinion. Before you could make a 3rd level spell "fireball" that was better than normal arcane magic (in that it affects 1/level not an area aso no freindly fire) but same damage.

Now you have to boost spells to make them even with arcane spells (Boosting sadly is limited by useage/day).

Now, they have some neat gems for arcane spellcaster, but divine got barely anything (at low levels).

So reasons no one posts:
1) too complicated
2) not much better in most cases

They could have had a list of common spells and ways to reproduce in the book for the average player, but there isn't.

[LilithsThrall]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Quatar wrote:

I was wondering, are they just terrible?

When I search for them, most I get are threads from the playtest, and from what I gathered from them, they got changed alot in print, so most of them aren't reliable really.

But I would have expected alot more threads about them, there are tons about magus and the other UM stuff, but barely anything on WoP.

So, are they just too complicated so people don't try them, or are they so bad that noone actually wants to?

The playtest was better in my opinion. Before you could make a 3rd level spell "fireball" that was better than normal arcane magic (in that it affects 1/level not an area aso no freindly fire) but same damage.

Now you have to boost spells to make them even with arcane spells (Boosting sadly is limited by useage/day).

Now, they have some neat gems for arcane spellcaster, but divine got barely anything (at low levels).

So reasons no one posts:
1) too complicated
2) not much better in most cases

They could have had a list of common spells and ways to reproduce in the book for the average player, but there isn't.

Why should WoP be more powerful than the old way?

[Starbuck_II]

LilithsThrall wrote:

Starbuck_II wrote:

Quatar wrote:

I was wondering, are they just terrible?

When I search for them, most I get are threads from the playtest, and from what I gathered from them, they got changed alot in print, so most of them aren't reliable really.

But I would have expected alot more threads about them, there are tons about magus and the other UM stuff, but barely anything on WoP.

So, are they just too complicated so people don't try them, or are they so bad that noone actually wants to?

The playtest was better in my opinion. Before you could make a 3rd level spell "fireball" that was better than normal arcane magic (in that it affects 1/level not an area aso no freindly fire) but same damage.

Now you have to boost spells to make them even with arcane spells (Boosting sadly is limited by useage/day).

Now, they have some neat gems for arcane spellcaster, but divine got barely anything (at low levels).

So reasons no one posts:
1) too complicated
2) not much better in most cases

They could have had a list of common spells and ways to reproduce in the book for the average player, but there isn't.

Why should WoP be more powerful than the old way?

Because you are giving up many great spells. Why shouldn't give up something give back something of equal value and not worse?

[Quatar]

LilithsThrall wrote:

Why should WoP be more powerful than the old way?

Because there should be a reason to use them?

You can't reproduce some of the usual spells with WoP at all
Some of the usual spells can be made, but with weaker damage, or lower range, or less duration, or higher level.
Overall it's quite alot more complicated.

There is a tiny bit more versatility I guess, but since most words have strict restrictions about what they do and how they can be combined, its not even that much more.

So why use them?

[LilithsThrall]

That's fine. I didn't realize that there are many spells which can't be cast and many others that are of higher level.

[Dumb Paladin]

I don't think they suck ... I think they're probably just a bit too complicated for the average player to use properly, or necessarily want to use at all.

Personally, I would have preferred the space given to them in UM had been given to spells instead ... but I understand the appeal of offering a new optional system of magic in just a few pages.

[DGRM44]

Options are good, even if they don't appeal to everyone....its still nice to have options. Better than having them force words of power on us in PF 2.0 right?

[DGRM44]

After reading more on Words of Power I just may have to create some NPCs who use this parallel casting system and see how they do against the PCs in my campaign.

[Kthulhu]

I kinda wish they had been looser on the rules and restrictions, but that's more of an overall complaint of mine against the entire PFRPG rather than just this specific subsystem.

[Ravingdork]

The Words of Power Combination Archive is your friend.

Most people seem them as weak because they (1) don't know what the heck they are doing or (2) don't care to spend the time to find the really good combinations that beat out traditional spells like fireball.

[Dragonchess Player]

In some respects, Words of Power is "weaker" than normal spells (see the sidebar on Ultimate Magic pg. 164). However, it's a "build your own spells (on the fly)" type of system that allows much more flexibility than normal spells. Instead of learning three different spells that affect a single target via a touch attack, via a ranged attack, or affecting an area, you only learn one effect word and decide how the spell is targeted when you prepare/spontaneously cast it (without needing to invest in metamagic feats or rods).

If you're looking for a more free-form system of magic, instead of highly specific lists of spells, then Words of Power can work. If you're not willing to put the effort into an admittedly more complex way of handling spells, then Words of Power is not for you.

[Kthulhu]

Ravingdork wrote:

The Words of Power Combination Archive is your friend.

Most people seem them as weak because they (1) don't know what the heck they are doing or (2) don't care to spend the time to find the really good combinations that beat out traditional spells like fireball.

I wonder how much time it would take to build a spreadsheet or database that would essentially output ALL possible combinations. Then someone could go through them and check to make sure they were valid, assign them a level/description/etc.

[sunshadow21]

I agree that at the moment Words of Power are a bit weak, but I would rather see them release the system a bit weak and overly tight than something too loose and overpowered that everyone immediately pans and refuses to use. As they stand, they aren't for the average player, but enough people will use them to give them a good test run to see where power and looseness can be added when PF 2.0 does finally come.

[Adam Ormond]

Ravingdork wrote:

The Words of Power Combination Archive is your friend.

Most people seem them as weak because they (1) don't know what the heck they are doing or (2) don't care to spend the time to find the really good combinations that beat out traditional spells like fireball.

Most people see them as weak because they are weak. There's like two valid, powerful spells in that 'combination archive', followed by a slew of illegal, horribly underpowered, or questionably legal spells.

The Words of Power system does a handful of things well, a bunch of things poorly, and the rest not at all. Based on the sidebars in UM, it appears the system was designed as a precursor to 'modern' spellcasting, and not really a viable alternative method. Just like there are precursors to modern medicine. No modern day teacher is going to pull out a 16th century textbook, and I don't think it's intended for a 'modern wizard' to teach his pupils from a 'Words of Power' manual when the art has made advances in virtually every aspect.

I really hope more Words are released, to bring the alternate spellcasting method closer in power to standard spellcasting. As it stands now, it's largely a waste of space in UM.

[sunshadow21]

Adam Ormond wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

The Words of Power Combination Archive is your friend.

Most people seem them as weak because they (1) don't know what the heck they are doing or (2) don't care to spend the time to find the really good combinations that beat out traditional spells like fireball.

Most people see them as weak because they are weak. There's like two valid, powerful spells in that 'combination archive', followed by a slew of illegal, horribly underpowered, or questionably legal spells.

The Words of Power system does a handful of things well, a bunch of things poorly, and the rest not at all. Based on the sidebars in UM, it appears the system was designed as a precursor to 'modern' spellcasting, and not really a viable alternative method. Just like there are precursors to modern medicine. No modern day doctor is going to pull out a 16th century textbook, and I don't think it's intended for a 'modern wizard' to teach his pupils from a 'Words of Power' manual when the art has made advances in virtually every aspect.

I've found a lot of material being produced is in this vein, which is disappointing as both a player and a GM.

What do you expect when you are comparing it to a system that has been around decades. Traditional Vancian magic has had a lot of time to refine itself. The Words of Power are conceptually quite sound, and just need time to be refined.

[Mathias Gehl]

For those of you with Hero Lab (and the Ultimate Magic package for Hero Lab), our last update added support for the Words of Power sytem. Hopefully that'll be helpful to people trying to use Words of Power, since it will let you validate the combinations you've assembling, and it'll let you store as many combinations as you like, so that when you have free time, you can experiment with the words available to your character, and you can store anything interesting for consideration later when you're preparing/casting spells.

[Dragonchess Player]

Adam Ormond wrote:

Based on the sidebars in UM, it appears the system was designed as a precursor to 'modern' spellcasting, and not really a viable alternative method. Just like there are precursors to modern medicine. No modern day teacher is going to pull out a 16th century textbook, and I don't think it's intended for a 'modern wizard' to teach his pupils from a 'Words of Power' manual when the art has made advances in virtually every aspect.

You do know that "modern medicine" is revisiting the use of leeches and maggots, don't you? Not to mention acupuncture, chiropractors, homeopathic therapy, etc.; treatments based on "primitive folk-cures" that have been proven to have actual benefits (and in some cases are more effective than "modern" surgical procedures)...

[icarr757]

Quatar wrote:

I was wondering, are they just terrible?

When I search for them, most I get are threads from the playtest, and from what I gathered from them, they got changed alot in print, so most of them aren't reliable really.

But I would have expected alot more threads about them, there are tons about magus and the other UM stuff, but barely anything on WoP.

So, are they just too complicated so people don't try them, or are they so bad that noone actually wants to?

The quick answer: Yes

The expenation: Words of magic tried to combine the free form of a "on the fly" type magic system with the structure of Vancian magic. However, what they ended up with is a system that has all the limitations of both systems and little to none of the advantages of either.

The free form magic system should allow a player to look at a situation and be able to act quickly to achieve whatever effect he needs. If the need is a 10d6 damage spell that i can throw at a range of 10hexes I should be able to find, quickly, that 10d6 of damage = x spell/magic/heka, whatever points and 10hex range = y spell points, x + y = z total points, z total points = some type of skill/magic roll to pull off a spell of that magnitude. Finally, do I have z total spell points and do i have the skill to pull off the skill roll. The down side of free form is a player bog down a game horribly by not knowing what hes trying to do, or tries to get to "cute" and do 5 different things with one spell. With Vancian magic, the spells are all premade and fire and forget.

Vancian magic allows for a character to have prearranged magic system where the player has to do nothing other than monitor a list of prechosen spells, like crossing off items on a shopping list, as they are used. The problem with Vancian magic is that once you have chosen your spells for the day, your stuck with them. Today you memorized fireball 3x and later in the game your group has to fight some firebased mob, guess what, thats 3 spell slots that are totally wasted. Memorized a sleep spell and the game your running throws undead at you... With a free form magic system your fireball is a 6d6damage spell with a descriptor so if your attacked by fire mobs you could call it lighting/ice/projectile vomiting, as long as it passes muster with your gm.

With WoP you have a Free form system that does not have consistant or logical spell point costs crammed along side the "choose your spells once a day and hope they are useful later" restrictions of a Vancian system.

Imho, what words of power should have been is a slight tweak of magic as done in Monte Cooks WoDarkness d20 or the older d20 supplement Elements of Magic. Yes, they would have required some basic changes to spell casters, ie how many spell points/lvl, etc ,etc, but it is much smoother and easier to grasp.

But thats just my 2 gold pieces...

[Serisan]

Adam Ormond wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

The Words of Power Combination Archive is your friend.

Most people seem them as weak because they (1) don't know what the heck they are doing or (2) don't care to spend the time to find the really good combinations that beat out traditional spells like fireball.

Most people see them as weak because they are weak. There's like two valid, powerful spells in that 'combination archive', followed by a slew of illegal, horribly underpowered, or questionably legal spells.

The Words of Power system does a handful of things well, a bunch of things poorly, and the rest not at all. Based on the sidebars in UM, it appears the system was designed as a precursor to 'modern' spellcasting, and not really a viable alternative method. Just like there are precursors to modern medicine. No modern day teacher is going to pull out a 16th century textbook, and I don't think it's intended for a 'modern wizard' to teach his pupils from a 'Words of Power' manual when the art has made advances in virtually every aspect.

I really hope more Words are released, to bring the alternate spellcasting method closer in power to standard spellcasting. As it stands now, it's largely a waste of space in UM.

The "questionably legal" and "slew of illegal" spells are a result of TERRIBLE LACK OF ERRATA. The unfortunate truth is that they are, at moment, totally legal based on many of the casting rules. All of the Instantaneous-becomes-permanent things? Yup, based on the same rules as Vancian Instantaneous spells. Fireball is instantaneous and gives damage that can't be dispelled (which is why it's not permanent). Same basis for the Enhance Body nonsense.

Once the system gets its due errata, it'll be fine.

[Irulesmost]

I don't think WoP is underpowered. I find the versatility added to a spontaneous-caster is actually pretty great.

The way I see WoP, the best uses are for creating super-buffs (entire buff-cycle in one spell) and appending a blast spell to your compulsion effect to A) stack up DCs, and B) Attack their weak save. Dude in full plate? Probably has good Fort. Probably has bad Ref. Add a high-level fire spell, give higher DC, and if he fails his reflex save, he gets compulsed, and set on fire (And the funny part is, you don't even CARE that you're lighting him on fire!)

[Epic Meepo]

icarr757 wrote:

With WoP you have a Free form system that does not have consistant or logical spell point costs...

Actually, the underlying costs are fairly consistent:

Each effect word is an X-level spell. You have the following metamagic options, only one of which can be added to any given X-level spell:

• Add an effect word of level X-2 or less, use a spell slot 1 level higher.
  
• Add an effect word of level X or less, use a spell slot 2 levels higher.
  
• Add two effect words of level X-2 or less, use a spell slot 2 levels higher.
  
• Add two effect words of level X or less, use a spell slot 3 levels higher.

The only exception is that you cannot add a 6th-level effect word to an 8th-level effect word.

---

On an unrelated note, just for fun, I decided to rewrite the entire Words of Power system as a single metamagic feat. It's a rather complicated feat, but it's more versatile (and shorter) than the entire Words of Power system.

[Klebert L. Hall]

Yes.

Words of Power are either too weak or too strong, because those are the two opinions that rule the internet on every subject.
-Kle.