Carrion Crown and Trust Points

[Stolen seconds]

I am currently running my group through the Carrion Crown AP. They are moving through the Haunting of Harrowstone. While I enjoy the mechanic of Trust Points, as it gives me a mechanic to keep my players from devolving into the dreaded 'Chaotic Hero' alignment. However, I have run into a problem that I can't seem to find any errata for. I shall hide it, just in case:

Carrion Crown spoiler:

As far as I can tell, there are only seven trust points to gain throughout the entire adventure (defusing the mod in the graveyard, befriending the children, Stopping Gibs Hephenius without killing him, and saving the people from the town hall fire). This barely brings the PC's into trusted territory, and makes it impossible to gain the necessary trust points to gain access to any of the locations for research. This is only compounded by the fact that trust is lost at the rate of one per day, making the time frame to complete the adventure quite quick. By RAW, if the PC's dawdle at all, they would be run out of town before their month is up even in the best of circumstances.

This also brings to light the research rolls. To glean all of the useful information requires many high knowledge rolls that require potentially several rolls. Granted this was made worse by my particular group (their group motto should be "INT. The real man's dump stat." Several research rolls only add to the problem that trust is near impossible to build without house rules.

Has there been some ruling to fix this, and if not, how did you deal with it in your experiences?

[Liz Courts]

Moved thread.

[Spacelard]

Stolen seconds wrote:

I am currently running my group through the Carrion Crown AP. They are moving through the Haunting of Harrowstone. While I enjoy the mechanic of Trust Points, as it gives me a mechanic to keep my players from devolving into the dreaded 'Chaotic Hero' alignment. However, I have run into a problem that I can't seem to find any errata for. I shall hide it, just in case:

** spoiler omitted **

Has there been some ruling to fix this, and if not, how did you deal with it in your experiences?

I'm using the idea of trust points being absent as a springboard for the PCs to think about earning them...

Buy a round of drinks, get a trust point...
Help barn raising or crop gathering, get a trust point...
Give 100gps to the town as goodwill, get a trust point...
Give first aid to an injured farmer, get a trust point...
Bard in the party does a successful show in a tavern....you get the idea

[thenobledrake]

Stolen seconds wrote:

Has there been some ruling to fix this, and if not, how did you deal with it in your experiences?

You have failed to mention 2 events that can gain the PCs some trust (5 points total to be more precise)

Spoiler:

1. If someone speaks at the funeral and passes a diplomacy check the party gets 1 trust point
2. If the party points out to the guys at the money lenders that they are auctioning off an Ioun stone as if it were a mundane gemstone they get 4 trust points.

There might be more tucked away in there, I haven't check in full yet... and given that I didn't notice the decrease of trust happening daily at sundown until a few days had already passed in game - I house-ruled it to only start once the town actually has the expectation that the party is going to help them.

[Treppa]

Thread Necromancy.

On p 58, the 'Building Trust' text states that the PC's "can raise their Trust score by doing good deeds, respecting the townsfolk, and completing quests.." and that the Trust bonuses for completing quests are given in the text. I take that to mean it's up to the GM to adjudicate more earned trust.

For example, I ran "A House on Fire" (p 54), which has no stated Trust points. However, the PC's who were in the room made a successful Diplomacy check to calm the patrons, checked to see if any were injured and required healing, and asked that the Sheriff and Father Grimburrow be fetched. I'm awarding two Trust points, one for calming the situation and the other for respecting the local authorities.

[Biobeast]

Yep, the trust system is broken as written.

There are number of archived threads on this topic. For me I took out the part where the party loses 1 per day, instead I had them lose 1 every 3 days. Also, any deed that seemed good in the eyes of the townsfolk I handed them out. I also added a few side quests for helping out townsfolk and added them there also. You can do short side quests like help a farmer solve his haunted fields problem, etc.

The timeline seems off also, my party was moving way ahead of schedule so I shorted the time between events in the town.

[ralantar]

Don't forget the posting poles around town. You can post extra jobs on them for the party to gain trust. As well as Xp if you have a larger party that might need it to maintain levels.
Here's a sample of mine:
1.)Millie the Baker is looking for some day laborers (2sp for the day)Trust +1 as the pcs prove they aren’t vagrants
2.) Taren's pet Bungo the Bunny is missing. Have you seen her? (+1 Trust for catching) DC-15 perception or tracking to find. (-1 trust if harmed by pc)
3.) Estate Sale for Ms Burbager in 3 days
4.) Zokar the Innkeeper is looking for some day laborers (1sp for the day) Trust +1 as the pcs prove they aren’t vagrants
5.) Philberson wedding was a week ago
6.) For Sale: 1 wheelbarrow, 2 spades, 1 pitchfork, Plow with harness, 2 Scythe, misc handtools. Barlow farm
7.) Barn Raising in 4 days (+2 Trust if the pcs help)
8.) Farmer Pendergast needs his hay brought in from the fields. (he hurt his back) (+2 trust, 2 days work, 4 sp)
9.) Farmer Flurgenhurgen - 25 gp reward for the death of the wolf or wolves killing his goats. (+3 trust, there is a pack of 3 wolves)

[Helaman]

As said some thread necromancy will find an abundance of threads... I advocate you house rule some additional trust opportunities in but I would be sparring with them... the town and its people are MEANT to be affected by the growing dread - it adds a flavour and feel of its own to the game. If the villagers are constantly high fiving the characters and offering to let them take their daughters out its not gonna come across that way.

That said I am an advocate of a big helping of Trust points when things are all cleared up and the players spend their remaining time investing in the community, giving the players a bit of a shopping bump.

On the Knowledge skills being crap thing? NPCs such as Kendra and Father Grimburrow can help... I advise recommending them to invest at level 2.

Final thing, keep them out of harrowstone for a while.

[gbonehead]

Someone also had suggested that if you use only the existing methods of gaining trust, doubling the gain works pretty well.

I also gave the party points for each person that spoke at Lorimar's funeral, rather than just once.

[Mahavira]

I'll be running HoH soon enough, and was wondering what people thought of the following:

+2 for defeating each of the five prisoners, as the psychic pressure abates somewhat as the 'ringleaders' are removed (this is mostly just to partly counteract the relentless -1 per day)

-1 for public intoxication after the first incidence (cutting loose once is one thing, but they aren't in town long enough for multiple binges being normal)

+1 for attending the weekly church service. If a PC impresses Father Grimburrow (DC 20 knowledge religion check, DC 15 diplomacy check) he will invite the PC to give the sermon for another +1

+2 for defeating the stirges that attack the town

+1 for impressing the local schoolmaster (DC 20 knowledge check, any counts), and will be asked to give a lecture at the school, a further +1 if accepted

[Helaman]

I like some of these... nice!

[Mahavira]

Sigh, well the party is a changeling oracle with a trait that gives intimidate as a class skill, a halfling necromancer (if only Sauron could be here to see this) who took "control" rather than "turn", and an urban ranger. No diplomacy (oracle has a high stat at least...), and a few possible anti social behaviors:

Each use of intimidate -1 trust
Controlling undead when there are local witnesses -2 trust

These people are going to be run out of town, I can just see it...

[ThreeEyedSloth]

I allowed the non-skilled PCs (i.e. Fighter) to, instead of researching about the prisoners or the Whispering Way, help out around town. Each PC that did so earned 1 trust point each day. I felt it was a good way to allow everyone in the party to contribute, instead of making the PCs with no Knowledge skills feel like they can't do anything worthwhile.

[Helaman]

I like it

[Vanulf Wulfson]

One thing I did was give one trust point for each PC who spoke at the funeral whether they succeeded in their diplomacy/perform check or not. For each one who did succeed I awarded an additional trust point. Speaking at the grave site helped humanize the PC's in the villager's eyes.

[Lex Starwalker]

Here are some modifications of the trust system I am considering implementing. I'd be curious what you all think.

Behind-the-scenes. Although I'm going to keep track of trust, it will be an invisible system to the PC's. I think this will work better, and will hopefully defuse some of the rush to get to Harrowstone, allowing more RP in the town. Instead of letting the PC's know of a system, I will subtly show their level of trust in the town by how I RP the various townsfolk. I will also subtly indicate when the PC's have improved or hurt their relations with the townsfolk through roleplaying, effectively letting them know when they've gained or lost "trust" without revealing the system.

Basically, I think trust should be used as a guide for the DM to gauge the attitudes of the townsfolk for the PC's. It should not be used as a crutch, and the mechanic shouldn't be revealed to the PC's. This would only server to "break the fourth wall" and ruin suspension of disbelief. It should enhance roleplay, not replace it. Ultimately, good roleplaying on the PC's part should always trump a die roll (in social situations).

Again trust is a guide and reflects the average attitude of the average towns person. Obviously, each person is an individual. I will allow the PC's to build relationships with individual folk (with diplomacy and just good old roleplaying) which will trump any trust mechanic (this mechanic is basically for the folk who don't know the PC's personally).

I'm also doing away with the automatically losing 1 trust point each day. Instead, as long as the PC's are seen to be working the problem, they won't automatically lose a trust point for that day. Rather they will only lose a trust point for the day if they're obviously not doing anything to solve the problem or help the town.

[Urheil]

Lex Starwalker wrote:

Here are some modifications of the trust system I am considering implementing. I'd be curious what you all think.

Behind-the-scenes. Although I'm going to keep track of trust, it will be an invisible system to the PC's. I think this will work better, and will hopefully defuse some of the rush to get to Harrowstone, allowing more RP in the town. Instead of letting the PC's know of a system, I will subtly show their level of trust in the town by how I RP the various townsfolk. I will also subtly indicate when the PC's have improved or hurt their relations with the townsfolk through roleplaying, effectively letting them know when they've gained or lost "trust" without revealing the system.

Basically, I think trust should be used as a guide for the DM to gauge the attitudes of the townsfolk for the PC's. It should not be used as a crutch, and the mechanic shouldn't be revealed to the PC's. This would only server to "break the fourth wall" and ruin suspension of disbelief. It should enhance roleplay, not replace it. Ultimately, good roleplaying on the PC's part should always trump a die roll (in social situations).

Again trust is a guide and reflects the average attitude of the average towns person. Obviously, each person is an individual. I will allow the PC's to build relationships with individual folk (with diplomacy and just good old roleplaying) which will trump any trust mechanic (this mechanic is basically for the folk who don't know the PC's personally).

I'm also doing away with the automatically losing 1 trust point each day. Instead, as long as the PC's are seen to be working the problem, they won't automatically lose a trust point for that day. Rather they will only lose a trust point for the day if they're obviously not doing anything to solve the problem or help the town.

I'm about to start Carrion Crown on the following weeks. I've considered doing the same as you, but I need to keep in check my players since some of them could go "berserk" when bored... but don't mention when they will earn a trust point or when they loose them. I did mention to them that there is a mechanic that the townfolk will recognaise their help or not, but no mention at all what are the benefits...

I honestly think that a cohort seems too much... but may be give'm a healer to help them... not sure though

How was it in your campaign? did your idea work?