Can natural attacks be used to touch opponents for the purposes of casting a touch spell in combat? I don't see anywhere where it's specifically laid out in the text.
I would think that, just as a level 12 sorcerer with Chill Touch could make melee touches at BAB +6/+1 just as he could with his unarmed strike, a 6 BAB creature with two claws and a tail slap and holding chill touch would make touches at BAB +6/+6/+1 just as he could with those natural limbs.
Is there text specifically saying that it is or is not allowed? If there is no such text, what's your take on it and why?
Can natural attacks be used to touch opponents for the purposes of casting a touch spell in combat? I don't see anywhere where it's specifically laid out in the text.
I would think that, just as a level 12 sorcerer with Chill Touch could make melee touches at BAB +6/+1 just as he could with his unarmed strike, a 6 BAB creature with two claws and a tail slap and holding chill touch would make touches at BAB +6/+6/+1 just as he could with those natural limbs.
Is there text specifically saying that it is or is not allowed? If there is no such text, what's your take on it and why?
Generally speaking, an attack with a touch spell means one specific limb is "holding a charge." So no, there is nothing keeping you from using a natural attack to deliver a touch spell, as long as it is consistently the same limb/natural attack being used to deliver it repeatedly. In your example, if they wanted to deliver the chill touch, you'd have to decide if it was claw 1, claw 2 or the tail slap which held the charge when you cast the spell. Then when that attack landed, mark off a charge/use of the spell.
an attack with a touch spell means one specific limb is "holding a charge." [...]
I just looked up the text for holding the charge to check what you just said (not sure why I hadn't read over that whole bit before posting) and I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
Here's the text:
If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. [,,,]
You'll note the text makes no mention of a specific limb holding a charge (the rest of the section does not either) - rather, it is YOU who hold the charge, and any time YOU touch another creature, the charge is discharged. So you can't, for instance, hold charges of chill touch in your left hand and thumb wrestle your buddies with your right. Touching someone, no matter what limb with, discharges a touch spell you're holding. I think this is made quite clear in the text. YOU hold the charge and it's discharged when YOU touch someone - it's not keyed to one specific part of your body. If you have actual rules text counterindicating this, though, please present it.
Later text in the same section does seem to indicate that touches with natural attacks would be suitable for discharging a touch spell charge. This seems to support the notion that a creature with 2 Claws +10 and Bite +10 would be able to make 3 +10 touch attacks in the same round (doing no damage, but discharging held touch spell charges).
Later text in the same section does seem to indicate that touches with natural attacks would be suitable for discharging a touch spell charge. This seems to support the notion that a creature with 2 Claws +10 and Bite +10 would be able to make 3 +10 touch attacks in the same round (doing no damage, but discharging held touch spell charges).
Well, you COULD try for touch attacks, but if you're full attacking anyway, you don't have to TRY to make touch attacks. Actually, doing so may provoke an AoO. You can very well make normal attacks with a natural weapon or unarmed strike, and the spell discharges if it connects.
Just.... don't cast a touch spell while mounted, ya?
Though I do wonder if you happen to be touching multiple creatures who are valid targets for a spell, who gets zapped?
IIRC, there was a ruling in 3.5 about natural attacks and touch spells.
You could make an attack against the target AC (not touch). If you succeeded, then you did your attack damages and the target was affected by the spell.
Later text in the same section does seem to indicate that touches with natural attacks would be suitable for discharging a touch spell charge. This seems to support the notion that a creature with 2 Claws +10 and Bite +10 would be able to make 3 +10 touch attacks in the same round (doing no damage, but discharging held touch spell charges).Well, you COULD try for touch attacks, but if you're full attacking anyway, you don't have to TRY to make touch attacks. Actually, doing so may provoke an AoO. You can very well make normal attacks with a natural weapon or unarmed strike, and the spell discharges if it connects.
Just.... don't cast a touch spell while mounted, ya?
Though I do wonder if you happen to be touching multiple creatures who are valid targets for a spell, who gets zapped?
Making a touch attack while holding a charge does not provoke an AoO.
Also, as to the "why," there may be instances where a creature may want to target touch AC rather than normal AC and primarily cares about getting the spell charges off, not about doing actual damage with the natural attacks.
an attack with a touch spell means one specific limb is "holding a charge." [...]I just looked up the text for holding the charge to check what you just said (not sure why I hadn't read over that whole bit before posting) and I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
Here's the text:
If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. [,,,]You'll note the text makes no mention of a specific limb holding a charge (the rest of the section does not either) - rather, it is YOU who hold the charge, and any time YOU touch another creature, the charge is discharged. So you can't, for instance, hold charges of chill touch in your left hand and thumb wrestle your buddies with your right. Touching someone, no matter what limb with, discharges a touch spell you're holding. I think this is made quite clear in the text. YOU hold the charge and it's discharged when YOU touch someone - it's not keyed to one specific part of your body. If you have actual rules text counterindicating this, though, please present it.
Later text in the same section does seem to indicate that touches with natural attacks would be suitable for discharging a touch spell charge. This seems to support the notion that a creature with 2 Claws +10 and Bite +10 would be able to make 3 +10 touch attacks in the same round (doing no damage, but discharging held touch spell charges).
Maybe it is just me thinking simplistically, but if you are going to read it that strictly, you can't hold a weapon or shield nor could you wear equipment... Using your take on it, the only caster who could hold a charge is a naked one, by RAW.
You need to have a hand free to cast a spell, we all know this. I also believe you are unable to cast a spell when holding a charge (and I believe in your hand). Now its been awhile and I haven't had a reason to look if PFRPG changed it so I can't tell you if you cannot cast a spell at all if holding a charge or if you just need to have another hand free to do so, thus holding two charges and being unable to cast anything else as your hands are being used to "hold" the attacks.
To me both those points add up to not holding a charge on your "body."
If you are really intent on getting an answer there is always the "Ask James" thread.
Edit: Also think of it this way, if it is "held" in you hand, you won't accidentally kill the party cleric who rushes over to touch you with a cure light wounds mid battle...
Edit: Also think of it this way, if it is "held" in you hand, you won't accidentally kill the party cleric who rushes over to touch you with a cure light wounds mid battle...
That's the way the rules is written.
There's nothing at all in the rules that says you hold a charge in a limb. Were that the case you could store x number of touch spells and initiate a grapple and release them all at once. (Where x approaches ridiculous since there's no apparent limitation on where you can store it).Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Maybe it is just me thinking simplistically, but if you are going to read it that strictly, you can't hold a weapon or shield nor could you wear equipment... Using your take on it, the only caster who could hold a charge is a naked one, by RAW.
Even a naked caster is probably touching the air, or in a world with air that is made of stuff, he's at least touching the air. He'd have to be in a vacuum by strict RAW. However, I think common sense can be applied here, and it can be concluded that you can hold all your equipment, touch your boots and/or the floor, etc.
As far as a cleric touching you with C*W, that's the price you pay for holding the charge of a harmful spell.
You need to have a hand free to cast a spell, we all know this. I also believe you are unable to cast a spell when holding a charge (and I believe in your hand). Now its been awhile and I haven't had a reason to look if PFRPG changed it so I can't tell you if you cannot cast a spell at all if holding a charge or if you just need to have another hand free to do so, thus holding two charges and being unable to cast anything else as your hands are being used to "hold" the attacks.
You don't need a free hand to cast a still spell or a spell without somatic components. Needing a free hand is not so that you can hold charges, it's so you can make gestures as part of the casting.
Also, you cannot cast a spell at all without held charges dissipating - even if the new spell you cast is not a touch spell. "If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."
Edit: Also think of it this way, if it is "held" in you hand, you won't accidentally kill the party cleric who rushes over to touch you with a cure light wounds mid battle...That's the way the rules is written.
There's nothing at all in the rules that says you hold a charge in a limb. Were that the case you could store x number of touch spells and initiate a grapple and release them all at once. (Where x approaches ridiculous since there's no apparent limitation on where you can store it).Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
It doesn't, however, say that the spell goes off if something touches you. Otherwise, you could say "I cast vampiric touch, and it goes off on the first monster to hit me. The temporary hitpoints should absorb the damage they do."
It doesn't, however, say that the spell goes off if something touches you. Otherwise, you could say "I cast vampiric touch, and it goes off on the first monster to hit me. The temporary hitpoints should absorb the damage they do."
I'd say the bold covers unwillingly being hit for damage:
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.
Holding a charge wording seems to take the ability of choice away from you. You can't hold a charge, slap a friend on the back and not have it go off. If we're going to do RAW it works both ways, contact is the important part, not the reason or intent behind the contact.
It doesn't, however, say that the spell goes off if something touches you. Otherwise, you could say "I cast vampiric touch, and it goes off on the first monster to hit me. The temporary hitpoints should absorb the damage they do."I'd say the bold covers unwillingly being hit for damage:
If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.
Holding a charge wording seems to take the ability of choice away from you. You can't hold a charge, slap a friend on the back and not have it go off. If we're going to do RAW it works both ways, contact is the important part, not the reason or intent behind the contact.
After further thought, it'd only go off if you were hit by a natural attack or unarmed strike. Because you can't deliver a touch spell through a manufactured weapon (Magus class ability aside), so being hit by one won't trigger it either.
Its if you touch anything, not if anything touches you. There's a difference rules wise precisely to prevent monks from dying when they flurry of blows a wizard with vampric touch. Or real vampires.