Are Magic Systems Non-Modular?


Homebrew and House Rules


hi spellfinders,

I've been pondering this question for awhile, just how easy is it for us to swap out our existing vancian magic system for something else. I'm not saying it's bad, but am just pondering the thought of whether or not its swappable with something different.

The question I think hinges on how deeply the system is woven into everything else. How many classes and monsters would we have to alter or eliminate if a group put a different system in place? That sound's like a lot of work! Which modules would need to be rewritten? Egads!

Anyway, it seems too labor intensive to me to easily be done. Maybe the combat system would be doable, but I'm doubtful about dat one too. They just aren't races or weapons that are easy to remove and fill with somtin else.

opinions?
booger=boy


the easy answer is: it depends on the system you want to introduce

for example to have mana:
max spell-level is a linear progression, so you don't really need a table.
Manacost for a spell be it's (level+1)squared.
Mana you have is ability score times level times 1.5, level for spontaneous spellcasters is herefor increased by 2.

However if you truly want something totally different, it's going to be difficult, magic gear changes, monsters change, and you would have to reinvent spells.


How different did you have in mind? Unearthed Arcana outlines several variant systems for calculating daily spell availability for 3.5 d&d. I haven't read them lately but given the similarity of 3.5 and pathfinder I would guess they could be adapted easily.


booger=boy wrote:

hi spellfinders,

I've been pondering this question for awhile, just how easy is it for us to swap out our existing vancian magic system for something else. booger=boy

Sorcerer is already out of the Vancian system. Is it the spell lists you object too? The spells themselves? What sort of something else are you after?


Breakfast wrote:
How different did you have in mind? Unearthed Arcana outlines several variant systems for calculating daily spell availability for 3.5 d&d. I haven't read them lately but given the similarity of 3.5 and pathfinder I would guess they could be adapted easily.

Well, the system I was looking at that provoked the thought was an old Pendragon 4th edition. Its a really different magic system from what I can tell. Spells take a long time to cast and they may age you or you may have to go into a magical slumber to recover! There aren't any Firefarts or Lightning turds spells but it gives you guidelines for turning people into pigs. Spell casters are very rare and its doesn't seem likely that you would play one. You play knights!

That's what got me thinking about Pthfinder and what'd I'd have to do to remove its system and try something like Penddragons out. It doesn't seem doable to me.

booger=boy


Pendragon (which seems like a variant of Ars Magica) is about as incompatible to D&D as it gets.

There are several layers of complexity:

1. Easy
Only change one aspect (such as spells per day). Usually makes some classes (Sorceror/Oracle) largely redundant but else has minimal impact on the game.

2. Medium
Leave the spells as they are but change everything else. Maybe spells are only aquired through spending feats or come randomly or depend on the surroundings. Magic-User could cast any number of spells but the spells can have desasterous effects on the caster.
This has quite some impact on the game (usually it annihilates the varieties between the casting classes) but can still be handled with a basic set of rules.

3. Full Frontal Nudity!
Get rid of spells! Really, thats about as complex as it gets. It is usually easier to simply play another system (Ars Magica is a good example) instead of trying to change Pathfinder to match it.

For Pendragon Pathfinder I would do something along the following:

- All players must play Human Wizards starting at Level 7
- All PCs receive the Leadership feat for free and the number of cohorts is doubled but is restricted to fully non magical classes
- Spells per day/spell levels allowed is not used but all casting times are raised (standard = 1 Minute) and there is a spell difficutly
- Meta Magic does not raise spell levels but spell difficutly
- Introduce a spell difficulty that means casting spells carries a progresively higher danger to cause some damage to the caster (spellblights)
- Adapt the world to reflect these changes (non-humans are very rare, no magic items, church plays a large role and is opposed to Wizardry...)

Grand Lodge

booger=boy wrote:
Breakfast wrote:
How different did you have in mind? Unearthed Arcana outlines several variant systems for calculating daily spell availability for 3.5 d&d. I haven't read them lately but given the similarity of 3.5 and pathfinder I would guess they could be adapted easily.

Well, the system I was looking at that provoked the thought was an old Pendragon 4th edition. Its a really different magic system from what I can tell. Spells take a long time to cast and they may age you or you may have to go into a magical slumber to recover! There aren't any Firefarts or Lightning turds spells but it gives you guidelines for turning people into pigs. Spell casters are very rare and its doesn't seem likely that you would play one. You play knights!

That's what got me thinking about Pthfinder and what'd I'd have to do to remove its system and try something like Penddragons out. It doesn't seem doable to me.

booger=boy

Gothic Earth used some variant rule adjustments to the existing 3.5 system, mainly that all spells took at least one round to cast, required a fairly difficult spellcast roll to make to avoid losing the spells entirely and any spellcasting attempt risked getting you infected with Taint. (bad thing, trust me on this)

If you just want to make certain changes it's easiest to do so with house rules, which was the approach Gothic Earth took.

The real question you need to ask is not so much about modularity, but what impact this has on your game world? If you're looking to discourage spellcasters these are examples of approaches to take. (for gaming purposes though, I really don't recommend slumbers or anything that takes the character totally out of play for extended periods of time.


geesh... maybe it is really doable. I found a cool looking supplement called "Legends of Excalibur" when I was researching Pendragon last night and it apparently has a different spell system! Well not that different, it uses spell points instead of the memorize and toss system.

booger=boy

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