Lol, and now you're on the FBI watch list. Congrats ^.^Ok, I have no idea really how to make VX gas, I just made that up because I know its pretty deadly.
Of course you should always compare it to the relative powerlevel. If similar level wizards or clerics can do something like that, go ahead and allow it.
If that 1st level alchemist wants to build a nerve agent that wipes out an entire kingdom, that would be a no-no. At 15th level... maybeAnd you can always rule that in a world where magic exists the fundamental laws of the universe are slightly different (maybe because some wizard a couple of thousand years messed with them) and this "really easy recipe" simply won't do anything.
Well, not 'really' easy...
Triethyl phosphite reacted with methyl iodide to make diethyl methylphosphonate, which is reacted with carbonyl chloride to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl chloride, which is then condensed with 2-dimethylaminoethanethiol to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl thiocholine, also known as VX gas.
Point being, even a lab assistant for a community college would have everything he needed to make it.
Funnily enough, synthesis of nerve gas wasn't even illegal for private individuals until 1996.
But that's nothing. You can make a powerful explosive using paint thinner, concrete cleaner, and hydrogen peroxide. Just Google 'tatp synthesis' to see what I mean.
Honestly? That's the argument? That in a world where a man can turn a small bit of bat dung into a huge rolling ball of fire with just a couple of words that evaporation conclusively proves the existence of atoms?
I did give you fair warning not to think about it too hard, just for the sake of your game, but whatever works.
You'll find again and again that the atomic theory is one of the crucial underpinnings of our world. It was item #1 on the famous Richard Feynman's 'Six Easy Pieces,' and was the only one he deemed 'crucial' to retain in our collective memory if we were to ever enter another Dark Age.
If we're going to replace that with 'Gods did it,' there better be a pretty damned coherent mythology behind them to explain how they could design and maintain something as complex as a world similar to ours and not be so alien as to be incomprehensible (which would make furthering their agenda quite difficult for the average cleric.)
Honestly? That's the argument? That in a world where a man can turn a small bit of bat dung into a huge rolling ball of fire with just a couple of words that evaporation conclusively proves the existence of atoms?I did give you fair warning not to think about it too hard, just for the sake of your game, but whatever works.
You'll find again and again that the atomic theory is one of the crucial underpinnings of our world. It was item #1 on the famous Richard Feynman's 'Six Easy Pieces,' and was the only one he deemed 'crucial' to retain in our collective memory if we were to ever enter another Dark Age.
If we're going to replace that with 'Gods did it,' there better be a pretty damned coherent mythology behind them to explain how they could design and maintain something as complex as a world similar to ours and not be so alien as to be incomprehensible (which would make furthering their agenda quite difficult for the average cleric.)
It may be crucial to retain for the future for our future understanding of science, but with all due respect to Professor Feynman, it's a lousy thing to bring to the table if you're going to be building a world where the tech tops out at the Edwardian age at the latest and most is a lot more hoary than that.
If someone wants to get a good basic grounding in the medieval worldview, I'd recommend checking out the Agrippa, or to give the full title Three Books of Occult Philosophy by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim. That will give you a useful lens with which to view the medieval understanding of magic and science rather than an extremely anachronistic piece of current day knowledge.
Likewise, while evolution is good science for the real world, in a magical world, saying "It was created by a wizard" or "an aboleth" or "a god" is a perfectly rational explanation--especially since there are wizards in these worlds who adore the scientific method because their magic is all about reproducible results. Heck, breeding an owlbear from an owl and bear is basically a textbook science fair project for them.
Honestly? That's the argument? That in a world where a man can turn a small bit of bat dung into a huge rolling ball of fire with just a couple of words that evaporation conclusively proves the existence of atoms?I did give you fair warning not to think about it too hard, just for the sake of your game, but whatever works.
You'll find again and again that the atomic theory is one of the crucial underpinnings of our world. It was item #1 on the famous Richard Feynman's 'Six Easy Pieces,' and was the only one he deemed 'crucial' to retain in our collective memory if we were to ever enter another Dark Age.
If we're going to replace that with 'Gods did it,' there better be a pretty damned coherent mythology behind them to explain how they could design and maintain something as complex as a world similar to ours and not be so alien as to be incomprehensible (which would make furthering their agenda quite difficult for the average cleric.)
Why? if the theory of general relativity is so important in the world of fantasy how is there magic? the existence of magic, godly intervention, monsters and the like is pretty alien. the need for the world to have the atom or molecule or anything of that ilk is needless. the world is make believe. If there is the need for the science of OUR world, there could be no magic as energy could not exist without being created in some way. time travel, teleportation and all the space time spells would have horrific in game effects( i cast dimension door, ok you return 60 years later and the castle you had been in is now in various states of ruin). you cant have PART of real world science, only all or none. if there is not the existence of real world science, then there must be a science of sorts that is different, but largely similar to our own. it is in the world of magic and pseudo-science that golarion takes place. so to say that an atom exists in the world of golarion because it exists here is a logical fallacy.
BUT that is where the alchemist comes in, the researcher of the state of existence in a world ruled and created by magic.
Simple -- use alchemy instead of chemistry -- the theories and practices behind alchemy are as much spiritual as they are chemical, for the alchemist you literally cannot separate the two.
As for magic and what not -- I have to say we don't really fully understand dark energy or dark matter yet (or any other such things in the universe) and until we understand everything we can't rule out the possibility that some such thing can be understood and used to have effects that are currently not understood or would be called magic.
"Science is magic understood."
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There seems to be some slight confusion over knowledge of atoms and the existence of them. Unless quantum physics starts kicking in at a much larger state of matter in the fantasy world, atoms exist whether people know it or not.
People are also maybe not aware of Clarke's three laws, the relevant one being:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
The supplement (Niven's law) being:
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."
If there is fault to be found, it is in the rules and conventions of the game, not in the physics (or lack thereof) of the fantasy world.
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I think a large part of the answer is in the question. Necessity is the mother of invention. If one can cast cloudkill, what need is there for poison gas? Why try to use mage hand to do molecular engineering when you can just cast polymorph object?
Power and fear... you get only so many mages with lvl 5 or 8 spells and these are not really keen into fabrication of things usually + the people don't really want to rely on those magicians, that are just as likely to turn you into a toad or slave or...
On the other hand, they seem to have a strong technological foundation. They have blacksmithing down, which is no small feat. If you consider that IRL we are still technically in the Iron Age, they aren't far behind.They can do things with magic we can't replicate with science. It's highly likely that any progress or research happening in this setting is magical, not technological. They are much more likely to start mass production of household magical devices than internal combustion engines. The problems their world may someday face are more likely to be from the abuse of magical energy, which may begin to wear on the fabric of spacetime...
Well, there are ancient magical bateries for example those operating the dam in Hook Mountain Massacre, but who really wants to have binded fiends just as a power source? I think that the drive for mundane power could be there, just as there would be notions sabotaging it (mages who don't want to loose their power monopol)
Speaking of which, of course there are atoms. Otherwise the fantasy world would be so incomprehensibly alien to us that it wouldn't warrant discussion. For that matter, of course there is physics, too. It's just that in some select instances, real-world science screws up game balance. The fantasy world is necessarily, partially dissociated from the real world. But, if these basics weren't there, fire wouldn't burn, constellations would change randomly, and engineers would be about as useful as the lottery. Science is only possible because things generally make sense. If things generally don't make sense in the game world, even magic wouldn't function predictably.
Of course there don't have to be any. the world can be completely like ours as far as human senses go but underneath it can be completely different. What if flying cities of old didn't use magic for staying airborne, but rather an anomaly in setting physics? This is a game where non-euclidean geometry and strange laws of matter and time apply. Constelations can change regularly because of the divine decree - remember that this world could have been created and it has a river of souls flowing somewhere through it's space. It has angels guarding stars and gods trying to swallow them. And dark things moving between and behind them.
Vancian spells (as so with any "cook book" technology) are based on scientific fundamentals.
Says who?
I want to see your conviction that atoms must exist in a fantasy setting be resolved with the fact that polymorph any object exists in that fantasy setting. Maybe what you mean by "atom" is not what the rest of us are talking about (protons, electrons, valence, strong and weak subatomic forces, etc.)
Ok, here goes.
If you take an atom (hydrogen, I think, been a while since Earth Science) and enlarge it to scale with a football stadium, the nucleus (you know, the MASSIVE part) would be the size of a marble on the 50 yard line. The rest is space. The rest is held together by electromagnetic force and maybe a little bit because it wants to be.
Then realize that is the truth about everything, including the stadium. So theoretically (code word for *Magically Possible*) you could take the stadium and shrink it down to the size of the atom. The main obstacle is the electromagnetic forces giving everything their structure. But if you managed to condense it all down, get all the air out, you'd have a very tiny, incredibly dense, stadium snowglobe.
Now, I'm not sure why polymorph doesn't account for the mass of the stadium, but it's probably because it's much cooler to pick it up and take it with you. I'm also not sure why it's apparently taboo to speak of the violent expansion rate and subsequent blast that would follow a dispel magic on such an...ornament. But for some reason, they don't want players having what would effectively be "Boss Killers" that are just that easy to make. Otherwise, drop a snowglobe on the enemy, cast dispel, end the war.
I will go so far as to put spacefaring aliens in my fantasy games. But I draw the line at allowing the players to metagame their own understanding of space travel, chemicals, modern technology, etc.
To that end, I see no reason for there to be any talk at the table concerning chemistry, the periodic table, Buzz Aldrin, etc. And why would anybody want that, anyway. Maybe one showoff at the table might make himself feel important indulging in this sort of thing, but I'm betting everybody else would be bored to death.
It's fantasy. You can introduce anything into it, with care. But it should remain fantasy in the end, and that means lots of mysteries the PC might never regard as anything more than another kind of "magic."
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I am surprised no one has jet cited it (or maybe I have missed it) but here it goes:
Not until around 460 B.C., did a Greek philosopher, Democritus, develop the idea of atoms. He asked this question: If you break a piece of matter in half, and then break it in half again, how many breaks will you have to make before you can break it no further? Democritus thought that it ended at some point, a smallest possible bit of matter. He called these basic matter particles, atoms.
I will go so far as to put spacefaring aliens in my fantasy games. But I draw the line at allowing the players to metagame their own understanding of space travel, chemicals, modern technology, etc.
To that end, I see no reason for there to be any talk at the table concerning chemistry, the periodic table, Buzz Aldrin, etc. And why would anybody want that, anyway. Maybe one showoff at the table might make himself feel important indulging in this sort of thing, but I'm betting everybody else would be bored to death.
It's fantasy. You can introduce anything into it, with care. But it should remain fantasy in the end, and that means lots of mysteries the PC might never regard as anything more than another kind of "magic."
You're right, it should remain fantasy, even to the end.
Which Might & Magic was it that had your party decked out in blaster guns decimating the alien queen? That was...surreal, but also seriously ingenuous.
The problem such talks pose is it forces the DM to say "no" to things that we all know perfectly well would work. Because to say "yes" would mean allowing players a degree of real-world knowledge that could grant them forever an unbalancing edge. And it's not a game of cowboys vs aborigones, it's locals vs locals. The problem arises from a failure to limit what you know by what your character knows.
I am surprised no one has jet cited it (or maybe I have missed it) but here it goes:
Not until around 460 B.C., did a Greek philosopher, Democritus, develop the idea of atoms. He asked this question: If you break a piece of matter in half, and then break it in half again, how many breaks will you have to make before you can break it no further? Democritus thought that it ended at some point, a smallest possible bit of matter. He called these basic matter particles, atoms.
And for how long this was just another philosophical point of view on matter? That's exactly what it is before a proof is found. In game world it doesn't have to even exist because the things are not that way.
Never ever mix real world science with an Fantasy RPG, it will always lead to... desaster!
The things in P&P RPGs are as they are because of the fundamental rule of movies:
"Why is it that way, it's unlogical!"
"Because it looks (sounds etc.) cool!"
P.S.: Even at Cyberpunk RPGs it's very dangerous, one of my SR rounds proofed it, as one guy get his hands on the anarchy cook book... (and watch too much macgyver/a-team/burn notice)
Simple -- use alchemy instead of chemistry -- the theories and practices behind alchemy are as much spiritual as they are chemical, for the alchemist you literally cannot separate the two.
Spiritual! That was the 4th word I was looking for!
Sounds to me like your answer is "I don't know".
Here's another part of the spell..explain to me how wood, for example, can be turned into gold. More importantly, explain how this gold now knows to turn back into wood after a given amount of time.
The wood knows nothing -- the spell however could be (if we are using scientific~ish ideas) simply an on going reaction of some sort that doesn't actually change anything simply masking it in an unreal of some sort. Considering that you can dispel the effect this answer makes more sense than the idea that the wood has to know anything.
However the alchemist of old (in the real world) actually were on to something with their ideas of turning lead into gold -- turns out that radioactive lead degrades into the gold element. Of course the amount of time this takes is staggering, however it does happen, so if the process could be sped up...
Though, if wizards are rare, technological solutions might crop up just to ease demand for such services.
a waterwheel used to turn a mill for grinding wheat is significantly easier and cheaper than a ring of telekinesis used to accomplish the same task. Cost\befit ratio is very important when deciding what would be done with magic and what would be done with technology. There are significantly more things that theoretically Could be done with magic than is porpotinally worthwhile.
That wand costs 375 gold to make and will work for 50 hours if you have a skilled person using it. A peasant child is a byproduct of an activity you're going to do anyway, works 16 hours a day for 50 years (ages 10 to 60) at a cost of 1 silver peice per day.
Peasant 1 silver piece/ 16 hours= 0.00625 gold per hour.
Floating Disc (if you make the wand yourself)
325 gold for 50 charges =6.5 gold per hour. Slightly over one thousand times the cost.
I'm all for using pseudo-science to explain magic in a fantasy world. IF that magic is repeatable (ie. I follow this recipe book instruction and I'll get the same results every time) - which is how DnD models magic.
I disagree to an extent -- if it was really that repeatable then you would get the same result every time -- not variable damage, and you would need a different spell for each set of circumstances - different target, day, humidity, position, etc.
Also I would point out that we have altered things on the atomic level without blowing things up -- Hiroshima is a very poor example of anything in this context since it wasn't an accident: we used a specific method to achieve a specific result. However as I pointed out earlier lead does degrade (radioactively) into gold -- without blowing anything up. I know for a fact that we have actually managed to stop and contain light particles in studies down in Australia too.
In fact you are over applying the effects of polymorph any object well beyond what we actually know of how it works and why especially on a fluff level.
People tend to over complicate things like this on a regular basis -- and you are forgetting one very key ingredient. Modern science doesn't know the method or theory being applied in the cases of these spells.
To expand on this: We know magic has and uses energy of some form -- we don't know what that form is or how it works (scientifically speaking), so we cannot state for a fact that it is somehow breaking the laws of modern science.
Recently in California they actually managed to perform what is for all intents and purposes the blink spell on an object the size of a human hair -- they made it both there and not there at the same time, exactly as it can happen with quantum physics. IF applied science can do that then we really can't say for certain what isn't currently possible simply because we haven't achieved it yet.
In truth you are falling into Clarke's first law:
When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
It stems from the fact that we can prove we can do something -- but we can't prove we cannot do something since it is impossible to prove a negative (which is shown in his second law):
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
which when applied here leads to the third law:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
It may be crucial to retain for the future for our future understanding of science, but with all due respect to Professor Feynman, it's a lousy thing to bring to the table if you're going to be building a world where the tech tops out at the Edwardian age at the latest and most is a lot more hoary than that.
If someone wants to get a good basic grounding in the medieval worldview, I'd recommend checking out the Agrippa, or to give the full title Three Books of Occult Philosophy by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim. That will give you a useful lens with which to view the medieval understanding of magic and science rather than an extremely anachronistic piece of current day knowledge.
Likewise, while evolution is good science for the real world, in a magical world, saying "It was created by a wizard" or "an aboleth" or "a god" is a perfectly rational explanation--especially since there are wizards in these...
I agree, atomic theory is an anachronism, and a painful one at that. Likewise, ecologies that fall under 'intelligent design' (at least in broad strokes) is consistent with any worldview that isn't utterly Dawkinized. I understand essentialism and the theory of impetus and the 7 alchemical elements. I guess its just my chemistry background that's making this so difficult for me.
There seems to be some slight confusion over knowledge of atoms and the existence of them. Unless quantum physics starts kicking in at a much larger state of matter in the fantasy world, atoms exist whether people know it or not.
People are also maybe not aware of Clarke's three laws, the relevant one being:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
The supplement (Niven's law) being:
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."
If there is fault to be found, it is in the rules and conventions of the game, not in the physics (or lack thereof) of the fantasy world.
Praise Hudax! The man is a miracle.
Along those same lines, I think there's quite a lot more done with magic than is suggested in the core rule books. Blessing the crops with plant growth has a truly astounding impact on the civilization because much fewer people are required to work the fields. This enables a huge surge in labor specialists. It's difficult for me to imagine that public education (or, at least, a very mature and impressive guild hall system) doesn't exist. And, if it does exist, then magic would be taught as part of the core curriculum. Put one person out in the fields after plant growth has been cast and give that person a wand of unseen servant (and, maybe, another wand of Tener's disk). The fewer people required to provide subsistence, the more specialists can exist and the faster technological progresss (being careful in this case to include magical progress) can occur.a waterwheel used to turn a mill for grinding wheat is significantly easier and cheaper than a ring of telekinesis used to accomplish the same task. Cost\befit ratio is very important when deciding what would be done with magic and what would be done with technology. There are significantly more things that theoretically Could be done with magic than is porpotinally worthwhile.Though, if wizards are rare, technological solutions might crop up just to ease demand for such services.
It would be damned expensive compared to the cost of produced goods IMO. You can really grow strawberries in a bank tresor, but it's not the most efficient way to do that. I doubt that current game worlds are hard pressed on human resources, and magic is way too expensive to replace them. Yes, you free a lot of people to do something else, but the problem is that they are Commoners with a few Experts thrown in mostly and now try to think how to meaningfully employ them when all the menial tasks are handled by your magicians, who are actually highly trained elite, who thus won't sudenly have time for research and so on. I'd rather avoid this route. Oh, And don't forget that growth affects all things and weeds generally grow rather fast.
you're using "Dawkinized" as a synonym for "scientific", I don't think that's accurate.
There's rather a lot of difference in the connotation, methinks. Personally, I'd prefer we drop the issue. Mentioning the man in a thread does nasty things to Ross Bayers's blood pressure.
Sounds to me like your answer is "I don't know".
It is the heart of wisdom to admit ignorance. I could make up a story about how the polymorphed object is really just an “entangled object” connected to the real one which has been translocated into an extra-dimensional space, but that wouldn’t make any more sense than the spell as written. Except it would allow for the conservation of energy... But it’s still a bad explanation.
We know magic has and uses energy of some form -- we don't know what that form is or how it works (scientifically speaking), so we cannot state for a fact that it is somehow breaking the laws of modern science.
Well said. Further, it wouldn’t matter if it did break the laws of modern science, modern science would simply be forced to adapt to the phenomena.
Praise Hudax! The man is a miracle.
I’m putting this on my desktop background. :)
The 'expense' of magic is directly preportional to the amount available and the general level of the campaign. Considering the sheer number of people that we regularly see in APs, modules, settings material and the like that are at 5~10th level on a regular basis and the fact they are presented as 'average' people for the most part I think it's fair to summarize that the world of Golarian isn't a place where most people are level 1 and a level 5 is a rare event.
Also considering the sheer number of casters that are seen in the same products and the limited population (overall) of Galorian cross referenced with the number of classes with casting ability it seems odd to me to say that magic is somehow rare or that everyone is of low level and has never had a magic item.
The adventure paths themselves show that magic is so common that thieves, guilds, city guards, caravan guards and the like regularly have access to magical weaponry and armor to hand out to their regular members.
In fact the very profession skills easily points out that the economy of places is far more than commoners 'rarely seeing silver and never seeing a gold piece' -- all of which is bunk people are carrying over from older editions.
So is the argumen that magic in the game is some form of yet to be discovered science? there is no explanation of any of this. while some of the spells are similar to real world effects, they cannot be replicated as they are in the game. there is possible effects that appear in both worlds, but in our world we REQUIRE the machinery and technology. in the game the wizard just requires a book and an hour to study.
in order to teleport ItRW you would need an amount of energy that is incomprehensible, ie impossible. in the game world, you just need a wizard that has killed a sufficient number of trolls and orcs. there is no connection there.
The examples of real world science breaking down in the game world equate to those theories being false there. So atoms MAY exist in the game, but they MAY not. there is no proof of it according to the known state of existance in the game(the rules), what there is proof of is gods and magic. the existance of those 2 proves there is a real difference in the makeup of ours and the games worlds. SO the entire idea of science of the real world MUST be set aside in the game because it does not ALWAYS apply. there IS a similar set of rules in the game but they are not by any means identical.
SO in the question of atoms existance in the game, where is your proof?
So is the argumen that magic in the game is some form of yet to be discovered science? there is no explanation of any of this. while some of the spells are similar to real world effects, they cannot be replicated as they are in the game. there is possible effects that appear in both worlds, but in our world we REQUIRE the machinery and technology. in the game the wizard just requires a book and an hour to study.
in order to teleport ItRW you would need an amount of energy that is incomprehensible, ie impossible. in the game world, you just need a wizard that has killed a sufficient number of trolls and orcs. there is no connection there.
The examples of real world science breaking down in the game world equate to those theories being false there. So atoms MAY exist in the game, but they MAY not. there is no proof of it according to the known state of existance in the game(the rules), what there is proof of is gods and magic. the existance of those 2 proves there is a real difference in the makeup of ours and the games worlds. SO the entire idea of science of the real world MUST be set aside in the game because it does not ALWAYS apply. there IS a similar set of rules in the game but they are not by any means identical.
SO in the question of atoms existance in the game, where is your proof?
Um... in a word no.
In order to teleport you need technology that we don't yet have. Also the energy requirements aren't impossible -- and the wizard isn't simply studying for an hour.
Tell you what go look into and learn some metaphysics and the theories that go with them and then come back. It's no where near as simple as you are suggesting and the point is precisely that it doesn't disobey the laws of physics simply that it uses alternate means that are as yet unknown to us. Could be that all the laws of physics and what not that people expound now are simply antiquated by the technology of 'magic' as they know it and they do things in such 'old fashioned ways' (by our standards) because their technology of magic means they don't have to go about things the slow sloppy wasteful way we do.
So is the argumen that magic in the game is some form of yet to be discovered science? there is no explanation of any of this. while some of the spells are similar to real world effects, they cannot be replicated as they are in the game. there is possible effects that appear in both worlds, but in our world we REQUIRE the machinery and technology. in the game the wizard just requires a book and an hour to study.
in order to teleport ItRW you would need an amount of energy that is incomprehensible, ie impossible. in the game world, you just need a wizard that has killed a sufficient number of trolls and orcs. there is no connection there.
The examples of real world science breaking down in the game world equate to those theories being false there. So atoms MAY exist in the game, but they MAY not. there is no proof of it according to the known state of existance in the game(the rules), what there is proof of is gods and magic. the existance of those 2 proves there is a real difference in the makeup of ours and the games worlds. SO the entire idea of science of the real world MUST be set aside in the game because it does not ALWAYS apply. there IS a similar set of rules in the game but they are not by any means identical.
SO in the question of atoms existance in the game, where is your proof?
Um... in a word no.
In order to teleport you need technology that we don't yet have. Also the energy requirements aren't impossible -- and the wizard isn't simply studying for an hour.
Tell you what go look into and learn some metaphysics and the theories that go with them and then come back. It's no where near as simple as you are suggesting and the point is precisely that it doesn't disobey the laws of physics simply that it uses alternate means that are as yet unknown to us. Could be that all the laws of physics and what not that people expound now are simply antiquated by the technology of 'magic' as they know it and they do things in such 'old fashioned ways' (by...
again your argument is magic could exist. it cannot. there is nothing that could allow for a person to do what a wizard does. you talk about technology REPLICATING it. that is not the same as actually doing it. our uderstanding of quantum physics is pretty clear, and the existance of magic would throw it off to a point it could no longer be reconciled. the discovery of dark matter in many ways completed the theory of general relativity, and while its existnce is a bit of an enigma, it is not the proof of magic, nor does it suggest it. basically the science of the last 100 years has proven to us how immense our universe is and how technology simply cannot take us to do what fiction allows.
The magical realm of dungeons and dragons ignores these leaps in discovery because they dont matter. its a fantastical place that our laws of physics do not apply. As much as some of the people on here want to say that magic is some undiscovered form of hyperefficient energy that allows for mathematical equation bending is silly. it MAGIC. leave it at that. the game is an amalgamation of what we perceived people to have believed what was true 700 years ago as the truth. thats the easiest way to see the game. not through philosophical ideas of that era that HAPPEN to match the truth. the game is FANTASY.
yes along time ago someone said that todays science was yesterdays magic, that does not mean that golarions magic is todays science. thats a false logical jump. why cant golarion live in a realm of magic, unexplained by our science? its a land of our imagination... how about we start using it.
our uderstanding of quantum physics is pretty clear,
No it's not.
Also I refer you yet again to Clarke's laws -- until you can actually prove your statements (and good luck proving a negative) all you can really say is, "We can't do it yet."
Which is hardly the same thing as, "it isn't possible."
After all at one point cellphones, flight, and cars were not possible.
Since doesn't actually tell us what is impossible because of a key point that statistics tells us:
No matter how small the chance, how remote the possibility the fact is -- it is still possible -- it is not impossible because it can have a probability so long as we cannot control probability anything is still possible -- if highly unlikely.
*thumbs up*
The only relevant question to ask is "will Plant Growth lead to more productive crops?" If the answer is yes, then everything else I mentioned is inevitable. There can be no debate. Schools will eventually be created (how long is "eventually" - who knows?). Specialists will increase in number (and tax revenue will increase - which can be spent on paying more priests).
The whole snowball can be started by something as simple as a Cleric of Agriculture retiring from adventuring.
In fact wealth is relative -- and so is expense: Especially where labor is concerned. The stuff you can pay minimum wage for (and what minimum wage is worth) is far different than twenty years ago.
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Abraham Spalding, do you believe that the entropy of the entire Universe can be increased?
Do you believe that we will some day, divide by zero?
That an omnipotent being could exist? That that omnipotent being could ceate a rock so big that being couldn't move it?
What does that have to do with the topic? Magic could be a way of transforming energy into matter or one form of energy into another. The point is that we haven't discovered it yet.
Abraham Spalding, do you believe that the entropy of the entire Universe can be increased?
Do you believe that we will some day, divide by zero?
That an omnipotent being could exist? That that omnipotent being could ceate a rock so big that being couldn't move it?
Entropy is such an old gauche concept. But to answer your question: Yes -- provide we can find another system from which to decrease entropy in.
Consider the universe is still expanding, and in fact still being created -- how this is happening we don't actually know -- in fact we don't actually know exactly what 85% of the universe is made of. As such defining (or divining since that is what you are attempting to do) is impossible as we don't actually know the full rules, theories, principles or even materials that it is created of. As of now scientist are actually starting to theorize that there are multiple universes stack on top of each other and that they somehow might interact and that we have no means (currently) of breaking through to the other -- but that it should be possible. This very concept is straight out of the AD&D DMG and suddenly it is becoming an actual part of scientific theory.
Science can't actually say what is impossible or beyond human experience because it doesn't try to -- the only thing science tries to do is understand and quantify what is perceivable, repeatable and predictable. As such it explicitly leaves the concept of metaphysics and supernatural happenings outside its preview until such a time as it has the proper tools to study them. It never claims such things cannot exist or do not exist only that it isn't bothering with them at this moment.
ANYTHING beyond that is the work of philosophers. lawyers and logicians.
As to my personal opinions:
I fully intend to get a grasp on reality someday -- and on that day I intend to strangle it.
If you call that dividing by zero then that is what I intend to do.
As to the omnipotent being: It is possible -- I won't rule it out because I can't prove one way or another. However if such a thing exists I'm sure it has much more pressing business than the affairs of humans and what you care to say about it.
I'm reminded of a comic, "As far as last thoughts go, "THEY DO EXIST!" isn't as bad as others."
Let's stop using the word "impossible" because, as has been shown in at least two ways (Clarke's Laws and statistics), nothing is impossible.
Quantum physics is a branch of science that people know very little about. When you get to a small enough level (smaller than the parts of an atom), things start behaving in ways we can't predict and don't understand. Electrons can literally be in two places at once. Things smaller than electrons don't appear to obey the laws of physics. In fact, when observed, they sometimes appear to obey the thoughts of the observer. Sounds like magic to me.
Just for the record, the way I view the fantasy world is that it's a parallel history in which magic took the forefront of research and development rather than regular technology. I see it as a feudal society that, rather than being headed toward an Industrial Revolution, is headed toward a Magical Revolution where the cost and use of magic will become even more widespread and cheap. I happen to agree with Lilith on the assessment of agriculture, as an example of this.
Let's stop using the word "impossible" because, as has been shown in at least two ways (Clarke's Laws and statistics), nothing is impossible.
Quantum physics is a branch of science that people know very little about. When you get to a small enough level (smaller than the parts of an atom), things start behaving in ways we can't predict and don't understand. Electrons can literally be in two places at once. Things smaller than electrons don't appear to obey the laws of physics. In fact, when observed, they sometimes appear to obey the thoughts of the observer. Sounds like magic to me.
Just for the record, the way I view the fantasy world is that it's a parallel history in which magic took the forefront of research and development rather than regular technology. I see it as a feudal society that, rather than being headed toward an Industrial Revolution, is headed toward a Magical Revolution where the cost and use of magic will become even more widespread and cheap. I happen to agree with Lilith on the assessment of agriculture, as an example of this.
this would be an interesting argument IF MAGIC WAS REAL! it is not nor has it ever been. it was thought to be real, but science superceded it. and impossible is a fact. some things are impossible. the mathematics of physics and general relativity shows this. as does a scientific argument. whereas the existance of god cannot be DISPROVED, many other things can be proven one way or another. such as it is not possible for a person to fly without the use of technology. magic breaks the rules of general relativity as it can create something out of nothing. because it breaks such a basic accord of the theory, the entire thing at that point breaks down and the state of existence as we know it has no bearing anymore. it is impossible to create something out of nothing. according to magic in the game you can do that. evocation magic is just that.
thats the point of magic, its not scientific. to attempt to qualify it as such is to lose sight of what it is and what its for. the game is NOT realistic. no person can fall 200 feet, get up and keep fighting after taking 20 arrows to the gut. in Pathfinder/D&D you can. its a FANTASY, ie a MAKE BELEIVE world.
the point on our theories being well understood is that the equations that explain the laws of physics, when tested KEEP PROVING CORRECT. thats a good understanding
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Paying for Plant Growth costs 150 GP and increases production for a 1 mile diameter by 1/3 for the year. Considering you can get three crops a year out easily that means you'll get the equivalent of an extra crop out by the end of a year.
A 1 mile diameter is equal to 500 acres. From this we find out that the average yield per crop per acre is 47 pounds of food
So we have 47*500*3=70,500 pounds of food for 3 crops per acre per year.
Now if we have plant growth added on we get another 1/3 of that or 93,765 pounds of food per year.
Animal feed costs 5cp per 10 lbs so using this worse case pricing we can arrive at a price per pound of food of: 9376.5x.05=468.825gp for the plant growth and 352.5 without it. So in the worse case scenario you sell everything you get as animal feed you'll come out worse for the casting (468.83-352.5=116.32gp at a cost of 150gp).
However if instead you sell the food as rations at 5sp per pound you'll make substantially more (3,525gp no plant growth and 4688.3 with plant growth) and make a real profit from hiring the druid.
Even assuming you only get 1 crop a year somehow we still arrive at a profit for the plant growth: 1,175 without plant growth and 1,562.77 with it.
So IF all your food goes to the animals you'll lose money -- in any other circumstances you'll gain from using plant growth.
Also:
Profession skill:
Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.
That's untrained -- I got a clue for you -- farming is a profession (says so in the skill) -- a single rank in it and you are earning gold pieces per week. Even if you roll a 1 for a total of a 2 (assuming you dumped your wisdom and only have a +1 bonus on the roll) you are still earning a gold piece a week (half of 2 is 1 which is the number of gold pieces a week you earn with your profession check), which is a minimum of 3 silver more a week than untrained people earn, while most weeks you'll actually earn 5 gold pieces a week on average.
Paying for Plant Growth costs 150 GP and increases production for a 1 mile diameter by 1/3 for the year. Considering you can get three crops a year out easily that means you'll get the equivalent of an extra crop out by the end of a year.
A 1 mile diameter is equal to 500 acres. From this we find out that the average yield per crop per acre is 47 pounds of food
So we have 47*500*3=70,500 pounds of food for 3 crops per acre per year.
Now if we have plant growth added on we get another 1/3 of that or 93,765 pounds of food per year.
Animal feed costs 5cp per 10 lbs so using this worse case pricing we can arrive at a price per pound of food of: 9376.5x.05=468.825gp for the plant growth and 352.5 without it. So in the worse case scenario you sell everything you get as animal feed you'll come out worse for the casting (468.83-352.5=116.32gp at a cost of 150gp).
However if instead you sell the food as rations at 5sp per pound you'll make substantially more (3,525gp no plant growth and 4688.3 with plant growth) and make a real profit from hiring the druid.
Even assuming you only get 1 crop a year somehow we still arrive at a profit for the plant growth: 1,175 without plant growth and 1,562.77 with it.
So IF all your food goes to the animals you'll lose money -- in any other circumstances you'll gain from using plant growth.
Also:
That's untrained -- I got a clue for you -- farming is a profession (says so in the skill) -- a single rank in it and you are earning gold pieces per week. Even if you roll a 1 for a total of a 2 (assuming you dumped your wisdom and only have a +1 bonus on the roll) you are still earning a gold piece a week (half of 2 is 1 which is the number of gold pieces a week you earn with your profession check),...
Profession skill:
Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.
i think someone just got nerd burned!
OH SNAP!
continues to fail to understand the law of clarke #3.