Fair warning: this post touches on real-world science. If you think about it too hard, your game will explode. Your copy of the Core Rulebook will literally disappear with a flash of light and heat as if the binding were made of guncotton. Actual learning may be involved, provided we remain calm. Proceed at your own risk. ;-)
So, many people were confused at first when they saw the alchemist. It didn't seem like a particularly powerful or synergistic class, and some people were put off by the idea of 'bombs' in a fantasy setting, while others thought the daily use limit was unrealistic. We're mostly past that now, but the presence of alchemy raises a host of setting integrity problems.
Some elements of the alchemist seem derived from his mythical background (I.e. immortality, lead into gold, creating homunculi and simulacra), while others (smoke bombs, explosive bombs, stink bombs, poison bombs, acid bombs) I could make (and have made) cheaply and easily in my garage (though notice I did not say 'safely' or 'wisely', so imitation is a form of flattery I can do without.)
Meanwhile, even experts with no PC class levels can use the craft (alchemy) skill. Now, the crafting rules are a sore point, so I won't go into how 'nushadir' (APG 185) is literally ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac in old-timey speak) and compare the crafting rules to actual historical processes, since that would just be rubbing salt into the wound.
So, since alchemy and chemistry (albeit lacking a theoretical framework) are a part of most fantasy worlds, how far have they gotten? This is important because many chemical milestones (nitroglycerin, smokeless powder, the disinfectant properties of limewater and Condy's crystals, even the current high-end military explosive Cyclonite) were (or in the case of cyclonite, could easily be) discovered by guys dicking around with random chemicals that were definitely known during the medieval period (if only by Moslems).
True, a wizard with a wand of fireball could shut down any nascent dynamite plant with a command word, but how common are wizards anyway? In my opinion, they should be common enough that dismissing them as rumors would have about as much credibility as dismissing the moon landings as a hoax would today, but not so common that every town (or county, or principality) has actually seen one.
So, to wrap up, how much (or rather what instances) of applied chemistry (their lack of understanding of the principles behind it notwithstanding) are you comfortable with in a game that allows alchemists?
if you try to rationalize it, it all goes down.
"So this is ammonium chloride, right? In real life it melts your skin away and kills you in seconds (assumption), so as your character doesn't have acid resistance it will do just that, right?"
Or "I create as much chlore-gas as I can and pour it all down the dungeon until it is filled, nothing can breathe down there, = I win"
As much as I like real world thinking in my game, technology can't be one of that.
My limit is electroconductivity which I take sometimes, but not all the time.
But if you want to use more, feel free, however once you explained everything in real world terms, and somehow got all the ingredients for an nuclear bomb, don't be shocked when a wizard wants to built one, sent it to the abyss and ask for all the exp he gets for killing every monster on a whole plain.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The druid language is a secret one, so it's quite common for a player class to be somewhat of a secret society ("occult" in it's true meaning) which means that it could be that the alchemists just don't tell people their secrets.
As for bombs, especially if you talk about the medieval moslems, naptha (greek fire) compares quite nicely
If a player wants to come up with some alchemistical stuff, that he knows from RL can be weaponised, it would depend.
If he wants to build VX gas for example, I'd probably rule that he just doesn't have the equipment to do it without killing himself and the entire village.
In any case it would require pretty steep knowledge and craft checks, and if he fails the craft ones, that can have dire concequences.
if you try to rationalize it, it all goes down.
"So this is ammonium chloride, right? In real life it melts your skin away and kills you in seconds (assumption), so as your character doesn't have acid resistance it will do just that, right?"
Or "I create as much chlorine-gas as I can and pour it all down the dungeon until it is filled, nothing can breathe down there, = I win"
Ammonium chloride is pretty much the same as salt (though in water it lowers pH, while salt doesn't). I think they confused it with ammonia gas as far as nauseating fumes and acid neutralization goes, but whatever.
What's stopping them from casting cloudkill? Much easier than producing half a metric ton of chlorine.
And high-level wizards have spells that obviate the need for atom bombs (apocalypse from the sky, for example, could be made into a scroll, which is much lighter than Fat Man).
|
Has nobody seen the BBC version of Merlin.
They integrate an alchemist into a fantasy setting pretty smoothly.
If a player wants to come up with some alchemistical stuff, that he knows from RL can be weaponised, it would depend.
If he wants to build VX gas for example, I'd probably rule that he just doesn't have the equipment to do it without killing himself and the entire village.
In any case it would require pretty steep knowledge and craft checks, and if he fails the craft ones, that can have dire concequences.
Alchemists of 10th level and above would be immune to VX gas. :-)
Though poison bomb is just as good when it comes to mass murdering civilians, since most people are too low HD to even get a save versus cloudkill.
And not to alarm anyone, but synthesizing VX gas can be done in a garage for under ten grand. It's the not-killing-yourself bit that ramps up the cost. But unless you're disabled, just taking college chemistry up to organic II and you'll know everything you need to make it.
sorry for my example, I'm quite bad at chemistry that's why I wrote "assumption", just fill in another acid.
However an atom bomb should be much more damaging than any wizard spell because it has range (a few mile radius), direct damage, and secondary radiation that kills.
The problem of course is that physics for example 100ft fall don't translate that realisticly to PC, so an atom bomb wouldn't aswell.
If you would allow physics for example, it would be reasonable to have a scry spell that makes you see on a molecular level, and mage hand could then be used to rearrange molecules with results beyond imagination.
All in all, if my knowledge is good on a field the player wants to use, I will be more lenient because I know where to stop (= I can see what else is possible by allowing something), however if someone wants to wander off in a field I don't know, I keep close to the Pathfinder rules and nothing else.
Fair warning: this post touches on real-world science. If you think about it too hard, your game will explode. Your copy of the Core Rulebook will literally disappear with a flash of light and heat as if the binding were made of guncotton. Actual learning may be involved, provided we remain calm. Proceed at your own risk. ;-)
So, many people were confused at first when they saw the alchemist. It didn't seem like a particularly powerful or synergistic class, and some people were put off by the idea of 'bombs' in a fantasy setting, while others thought the daily use limit was unrealistic. We're mostly past that now, but the presence of alchemy raises a host of setting integrity problems.
Some elements of the alchemist seem derived from his mythical background (I.e. immortality, lead into gold, creating homunculi and simulacra), while others (smoke bombs, explosive bombs, stink bombs, poison bombs, acid bombs) I could make (and have made) cheaply and easily in my garage (though notice I did not say 'safely' or 'wisely', so imitation is a form of flattery I can do without.)
Meanwhile, even experts with no PC class levels can use the craft (alchemy) skill. Now, the crafting rules are a sore point, so I won't go into how 'nushadir' (APG 185) is literally ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac in old-timey speak) and compare the crafting rules to actual historical processes, since that would just be rubbing salt into the wound.
So, since alchemy and chemistry (albeit lacking a theoretical framework) are a part of most fantasy worlds, how far have they gotten? This is important because many chemical milestones (nitroglycerin, smokeless powder, the disinfectant properties of limewater and Condy's crystals, even the current high-end military explosive Cyclonite) were (or in the case of cyclonite, could easily be) discovered by guys dicking around with random chemicals that were definitely known during the medieval period (if only by Moslems).
True, a wizard with a wand of fireball could shut down any nascent...
I'd like to use chemistry and technology in general if I could use it without changing the rules.Although with the circumstance bonuses and penalties rules there is little impossible to do. Do you have to propose DCs for craft alchemy for example that will give the acid flask a circumstance bonus on dmg or do you want to define the "acid" into "sulfuric acid" or "hydrochloric acid" and give them circumstance bonuses and penalties to damage against specific creatures?Do you propose that we could get bombs by assigning circumstance bonuses and penalties to damage done with gunpowder an if we up the dose? What are your rule suggestion for the use of real world knowledge in rpg?
Ok, I have no idea really how to make VX gas, I just made that up because I know its pretty deadly.
Of course you should always compare it to the relative powerlevel. If similar level wizards or clerics can do something like that, go ahead and allow it.
If that 1st level alchemist wants to build a nerve agent that wipes out an entire kingdom, that would be a no-no. At 15th level... maybe
And you can always rule that in a world where magic exists the fundamental laws of the universe are slightly different (maybe because some wizard a couple of thousand years messed with them) and this "really easy recipe" simply won't do anything.
Just to clarify, I am against nerve gas, lasers, electronics, atom bombs, anthrax letters, and internal combustion engines in fantasy rpgs. At that point, you're playing another genre.
sorry for my example, I'm quite bad at chemistry that's why I wrote "assumption", just fill in another acid.
However an atom bomb should be much more damaging than any wizard spell because it has range (a few mile radius), direct damage, and secondary radiation that kills.
The problem of course is that physics for example 100ft fall don't translate that realisticly to PC, so an atom bomb wouldn't aswell.If you would allow physics for example, it would be reasonable to have a scry spell that makes you see on a molecular level, and mage hand could then be used to rearrange molecules with results beyond imagination.
All in all, if my knowledge is good on a field the player wants to use, I will be more lenient because I know where to stop (= I can see what else is possible by allowing something), however if someone wants to wander off in a field I don't know, I keep close to the Pathfinder rules and nothing else.
Apocalypse from the sky had a radius of 10 miles per caster level. Of course, casting it took 8 hours and drained 3d6 wisdom and damaged 4d6 constitution and required a minor artifact as a material component (any kind worked, it didn't specify, so weak crap like angel tears qualified), but comparing that to the effort of building an atom bomb is... well, still slightly in the AftS spell's favor.
Ok, I have no idea really how to make VX gas, I just made that up because I know its pretty deadly.
Of course you should always compare it to the relative powerlevel. If similar level wizards or clerics can do something like that, go ahead and allow it.
If that 1st level alchemist wants to build a nerve agent that wipes out an entire kingdom, that would be a no-no. At 15th level... maybeAnd you can always rule that in a world where magic exists the fundamental laws of the universe are slightly different (maybe because some wizard a couple of thousand years messed with them) and this "really easy recipe" simply won't do anything.
Well, not 'really' easy...
Triethyl phosphite reacted with methyl iodide to make diethyl methylphosphonate, which is reacted with carbonyl chloride to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl chloride, which is then condensed with 2-dimethylaminoethanethiol to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl thiocholine, also known as VX gas.
Point being, even a lab assistant for a community college would have everything he needed to make it.
Triethyl phosphite reacted with methyl iodide to make diethyl methylphosphonate, which is reacted with carbonyl chloride to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl chloride, which is then condensed with 2-dimethylaminoethanethiol to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl thiocholine, also known as VX gas.
... which in Golarion is known for it's aromatic scent (yes, in our world it's not), and used preferably in temples on high holidays.
Anyway, I definitely would not let them do anything like that (aka using player knowledge of chemical reactions), without an appropriate knowledge check. Tough whihc one is appropriate here. Maybe a craft (alchemy) check to see if he knows the thing in the first place before he can start building it.
Triethyl phosphite reacted with methyl iodide to make diethyl methylphosphonate, which is reacted with carbonyl chloride to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl chloride, which is then condensed with 2-dimethylaminoethanethiol to produce methylethoxyphosphoryl thiocholine, also known as VX gas.... which in Golarion is known for it's aromatic scent (yes, in our world it's not), and used preferably in temples on high holidays.
Anyway, I definitely would not let them do anything like that (aka using player knowledge of chemical reactions), without an appropriate knowledge check. Tough whihc one is appropriate here. Maybe a craft (alchemy) check to see if he knows the thing in the first place before he can start building it.
Still, why make VX when cloudkill and rods of widen spell exist, or when the alchemist can just use poison bomb and existing inhaled poisons?
We're getting hung up on technicalities here. Gonna try to edit previous posts to clear them up.
We're getting hung up on technicalities here.
Good luck getting away from that. You're on the interwebz, remember.
This is a topic that has caused concern for me as well, though I tend to deal with it as it comes. My group is pretty casual though, and they don't exploit much of the system, so it rarely comes up.
There's alchemists fire, thunderstones (which I figure are like a super noise-maker/pseudo-firework), soap, alchemical silver... lots of nifty things... Oh, and tanglefoot bags. I'm no chemist, but that sounds like a really complex chemical composition. It's a goopy substance in a container that causes it to spread rapidly when it bursts, and when exposed to air (nitrogen, oxygen, other small amounts of other gases) it hardens in a matter of seconds.
I think that leaves a lot of room for new things, but nothing more prevalent than what the game rules presents, and definitely not cheap. Alchemists are probably people with higher educations, which isn't something available to everyone, so they're probably people with higher standing. A proper laboratory probably has precautionary equipment, and has lots of space away from other dwellings 'just in case' which means they likely live NEAR larger towns (or maybe only cities) so that they can easily attain the things they need from specialty shops.
I don't have any specific ideas, though.
Still, why make VX when cloudkill and rods of widen spell exist, or when the alchemist can just use poison bomb and existing inhaled poisons?
We're getting hung up on technicalities here. Gonna try to edit previous posts to clear them up.
Because cloudkill has a very limited radius and duration. Whereas someone with the knowledge to make VX gas probably argues that a single vial of it is enough to wipe out a town.
It was just an example anyway. Just because the player knows which chemicals to mix to get an effect, does a) not mean the character does that too or b) the character "accidently" mixes it or c) the stuff even does anything in the gameworld.
Still, why make VX when cloudkill and rods of widen spell exist, or when the alchemist can just use poison bomb and existing inhaled poisons?
We're getting hung up on technicalities here. Gonna try to edit previous posts to clear them up.
Because cloudkill has a very limited radius and duration. Whereas someone with the knowledge to make VX gas probably argues that a single vial of it is enough to wipe out a town.
It was just an example anyway. Just because the player knows which chemicals to mix to get an effect, does a) not mean the character does that too or b) the character "accidently" mixes it or c) the stuff even does anything in the gameworld.
To wipe out a town, they'd need good weather (water causes VX to break down, especially if its pH is slightly alkaline), a way to aerosolize it (VX is a liquid, not a gas, and trying to vaporize it with heat would destroy it), and a relatively high altitude (far higher than most stone buildings could be built without magic, so we're either back to wizards again or there's a big cliff or mountain nearby, which limits where you can pull this trick, unless you can fly or make mountains, in which case we're back to magic.)
Then replace VX with some other nerve gas or something, and stop deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying.
Then replace VX with some other nerve gas or something, and stop deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying.
First, I'm typing this on a phone, so my replies are somewhat condensed.
Second, all nerve gases are very similar, so these constraints apply to tabun, soman, sarin, and their derivatives.Third, what *are* you saying? That players of level one characters shouldn't be able to make WMDs by using player knowledge? Because I totally agree with you there, and have no idea what's upsetting you.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's something stopping the alchemist from doing this on a regular basis: production scale. Even if the alchemist is vastly ahead of his time, he still has to deal with the fact that he has to make everything from scratch. And by scratch i do not mean starting with saltpeter and sulfer, i mean he's starting with the oak log in the forest and heading into the bat cave with a shovel.
The massive infrastructure that would allow the alchemist to make a few million cubic feet of chlorine gas simply isn't there. No one has the parts on hand, you will quickly run into supply and demand , and the local governments are going to notice when the price of bath salts in an area take a 100% climb and ask the court wizard whats going on there.
Medieval Arabs, Persians, Chinese, Koreans, Jews, Byzantines and I'm to susupect that the great kingdoms of both indian peninsulas if we are to talk about who knew something about alchemy. The world of alchemy is far larger than moslems and moslems actually had a wide range of mations/tribes that were just as ignorant in this area, if not more than their European contemporaries.
What knowledge can alchemists in the game world have? Well, don't forget that this world has magic and outsiders in it. Aside from thousands of years of researching and loosing of various things and magic perhaps joining elements that were never meant to hold together. Who can say what did the elves of old know? Who can even suspect what the vanished races before them knew? And what knowledge could have been brought from the infernal laboratories to the world?
Perhaps an alchemist knows how to make Sarin, but doesn't know what it is before it's too late. I can imagine a powerful daemon of pestilence selling at an exorbitant price a reciept for this to a foolish alchemist and tell him to do the operation on the highest spire of the town at midnight to produce pure adamantine from the reagents. The daemon may just watch the process with glee as the people are trying to cough their lungs out and leave alchemists notes slightly altered (with false assumptions about the product and a few more deadly reciepts thrown in) for another fool to find. And how to spread the thing? Pressurized pot and causing the explosion could be easy if telling the alchemist to use a combination of less than well known substances and the daemon still could employ Gust of Wind and Wind Wals to steer the cloud where he wants to.
There's something stopping the alchemist from doing this on a regular basis: production scale. Even if the alchemist is vastly ahead of his time, he still has to deal with the fact that he has to make everything from scratch. And by scratch i do not mean starting with saltpeter and sulfer, i mean he's starting with the oak log in the forest and heading into the bat cave with a shovel.
The massive infrastructure that would allow the alchemist to make a few million cubic feet of chlorine gas simply isn't there. No one has the parts on hand, you will quickly run into supply and demand , and the local governments are going to notice when the price of bath salts in an area take a 100% climb and ask the court wizard whats going on there.
+1000000.
Odd that we disagreed on the other thread.
Medieval Arabs, Persians, Chinese, Koreans, Jews, Byzantines and I'm to susupect that the great kingdoms of both indian peninsulas if we are to talk about who knew something about alchemy. The world of alchemy is far larger than moslems and moslems actually had a wide range of mations/tribes that were just as ignorant in this area, if not more than their European contemporaries.
What knowledge can alchemists in the game world have? Well, don't forget that this world has magic and outsiders in it. Aside from thousands of years of researching and loosing of various things and magic perhaps joining elements that were never meant to hold together. Who can say what did the elves of old know? Who can even suspect what the vanished races before them knew? And what knowledge could have been brought from the infernal laboratories to the world?
Perhaps an alchemist knows how to make Sarin, but doesn't know what it is before it's too late. I can imagine a powerful daemon of pestilence selling at an exorbitant price a reciept for this to a foolish alchemist and tell him to do the operation on the highest spire of the town at midnight to produce pure adamantine from the reagents. The daemon may just watch the process with glee as the people are trying to cough their lungs out and leave alchemists notes slightly altered (with false assumptions about the product and a few more deadly reciepts thrown in) for another fool to find. And how to spread the thing? Pressurized pot and causing the explosion could be easy if telling the alchemist to use a combination of less than well known substances and the daemon still could employ Gust of Wind and Wind Wals to steer the cloud where he wants to.
it must be getting late. Lol.
|
HOWEVER, it should be pointed out that many of the alchemist's abilities, like the bombs and his infusions and mutagens, are not purely physical. they're literally not repeatable, because they have no effect on anyone other than the alchemist (or, their wonderful properties vanish if the alchemist prepares a new extract using that slot, or whatever).
The alchemist sort of works like a fan-WoD Genius, in that they perform sciency-seeming but impossible wonders by sort of imbuing a fraction of their own personal soul/ki/mana into their creations.
How that interacts with mundane alchemical crafting is an open question, of course, which is the point of this thread.
I like magic and suchlike to be an overlay on the real-world physics of a gameworld, and magic must interact with it. so, for example, that bomb the alchemist throws does have incendiary chemicals in it, along with some other odd, seemingly non-functional elements, or maybe missing a key ingredient. and for some reason, if a non-alchemist were to mix them on the spot and throw it, it just...wouldn't be the same. it wouldn't burn as hot, wouldn't light properly, wouldn't actually explode, just smoulder.
Alchemists can create clones and homuncluli, but that doesnt mean they can do advanced genetics or assemble gooey bio-robots and synthetic organisms, or know all the intermediary steps to that level of technology. The methods they use to make a Homunclulus or clone are of an occult bent.
I like Fullmetal Alchemist as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong. I'd love to see an RPG with internally-consistent magic rules that aren't kitchen-sink, but D&D isn't one of those. No, D&D has Ki/Chi AND hermetic magic AND Alchemy AND Psionic Powers AND Divine Miracles AND weird semi-science elder-thing-occult--math-stuff, and probably has Morphic Resonance too.
Fair warning: this post touches on real-world science. If you think about it too hard, your game will explode. Your copy of the Core Rulebook will literally disappear with a flash of light and heat as if the binding were made of guncotton. Actual learning may be involved, provided we remain calm. Proceed at your own risk. ;-)
So, many people were confused at first when they saw the alchemist. It didn't seem like a particularly powerful or synergistic class, and some people were put off by the idea of 'bombs' in a fantasy setting, while others thought the daily use limit was unrealistic. We're mostly past that now, but the presence of alchemy raises a host of setting integrity problems.
Some elements of the alchemist seem derived from his mythical background (I.e. immortality, lead into gold, creating homunculi and simulacra), while others (smoke bombs, explosive bombs, stink bombs, poison bombs, acid bombs) I could make (and have made) cheaply and easily in my garage (though notice I did not say 'safely' or 'wisely', so imitation is a form of flattery I can do without.)
Meanwhile, even experts with no PC class levels can use the craft (alchemy) skill. Now, the crafting rules are a sore point, so I won't go into how 'nushadir' (APG 185) is literally ammonium chloride (sal ammoniac in old-timey speak) and compare the crafting rules to actual historical processes, since that would just be rubbing salt into the wound.
So, since alchemy and chemistry (albeit lacking a theoretical framework) are a part of most fantasy worlds, how far have they gotten? This is important because many chemical milestones (nitroglycerin, smokeless powder, the disinfectant properties of limewater and Condy's crystals, even the current high-end military explosive Cyclonite) were (or in the case of cyclonite, could easily be) discovered by guys dicking around with random chemicals that were definitely known during the medieval period (if only by Moslems).
True, a wizard with a wand of fireball could shut down any nascent...
My thought on this question is that members of the Alchemist class are just using their intuition and flashes of inspiration to make their discoveries, and do not have a sound science on which to base their theories. So they know what they know, and perhaps others can also learn their discoveries, but they don't really have a solid body of knowledge like the historical chemists have.
|
|
As much as you and your players are comfortable with.
For me that is little or none.
Step one, is this.
Step two, for me, is that this isn't GURPS, where all electrical effects, magical, technological or natural, use the same rules, and all fire effects use the same rules, and all acid effects use the same rules. This is D&D/Pathfinder, where electricity may or may not arc towards metal, or conduct through water, and magical or dragonsfire may or may not set things on fire, or mysteriously wash over a character covered with paper ofuda and flasks of alchemical fire and not actually ignite their gear, depending on the rules of that spell or effect.
The rules pretty much scoff at how gravity works, and most of the settings scoff at biology or ecology, consisting of worlds with 1,000 different species of apex predator. Creatures that weigh *tons* can fly, with wings, and not just the magically-assisted dragons, but also creatures like rocs.
Golarion even goes a step past previous game worlds, in that the sun is a giant portal to the positive energy plane, and literally generates life-energy.
Golarion, Oerth, Toril, Athas, whatever, this is the part of the map that sailor's marked 'here there be dragons.' I'm not sure if it's terribly useful to try to apply real-world science to these waters.
...it must be getting late. Lol.
Not at all... I was just musing about possible sources of knowledge from which the alchemist could learn things and from that you can gauge yourself how much they can know... actually it could be anywhere from primitive chemistry through grandmother's cookbook of medicines to hyperesoteric processes. They could be practical knowing that X+Y=Z or highly mystical that have reactions as much as byproduct as a product of higher celestial mechanics. The rules are setting neutral and you are asking for flavour text that was by purpose minimalized to achieve that.
Your world alchemists can know anything you want really. Golarion alchemist knowledge however wasn't summarized anywhere if I remember it could be anything the GM may need for the story...
|
|
A simple solution is that chemistry works fundamentally differently in a world where magic functions; or perhaps the Alchemist merely transmutes certain components into nearby elements using his formula, triggering a cascading change into the desired mixture using magic.
He is after all, a spellcaster.
An alchemist knows whatever you need him to know for purposes of the story you're telling. With "The Secret of the Rose and Glove," I had Norret as a citizen of Galt. As such, I was looking at the alchemy of late 18th/early 19th century France, including period fireworks recipes, cosmetics, poisons, metallurgy, perfumery, and so forth. I allowed myself one slight anachronism--specifically Madame Devore's perfume atomizer, since atomizers weren't invented until the Gilded Age and weren't used for perfumes until the Edwardian era--but my logic was that most people wouldn't know that fact and atomizers were either elven technology (because those elves love their Edwardian era, especially that art nouveau style) and imported from Kyonin, or else were cool tech from Alkenstar, which of course a decadent duchess could afford too.
If you go into the history of alchemy, you'll find all sorts of neat stuff. For example, the Baghdad Battery, that was probably used for electroplating in 250 BC. This hasn't been Golarion so far as I know (aside from ormolu in my story, which is 18th century mercury gilding), but for my personal games I'd happily say that it's a secret of the alchemist's guild to Katapesh, jealously guarded by the Pactmasters.
Beyond that, I'd put inventions where they make sense and are needed. Alkenstar is the Wild West with the emphasis on Wild, so it needs guns. Cannons? If the pirates don't have some, I'll be extremely surprised, because pirates need cannons.
Mostly, look at an area and go with the tech and alchemy that makes sense.
I still think that it hasn't even been established that the DnD setting has atoms which in any way are like the ones we have. That seems to me to be a rather important first step before a lot of anything posted earlier in this thread is worth discussing.
That... is a very good point. I suppose a particular plane could have slightly different physical constants, so that the radioactive stuff has a half-life too short to be naturally occurring. That'd put an end to the atom bomb nonsense.
But atoms would still need to exist (or be simulated by a similar mechanism) for stuff like surface tension, evaporation, solubility, etcetera to act in a way that doesn't threaten verisimilitude.
I still think that it hasn't even been established that the DnD setting has atoms which in any way are like the ones we have. That seems to me to be a rather important first step before a lot of anything posted earlier in this thread is worth discussing.That... is a very good point. I suppose a particular plane could have slightly different physical constants, so that the radioactive stuff has a half-life too short to be naturally occurring. That'd put an end to the atom bomb nonsense.
But atoms would still need to exist (or be simulated by a similar mechanism) for stuff like surface tension, evaporation, solubility, etcetera to act in a way that doesn't threaten verisimilitude.
In game world they really don't necessarily have to exist. Everything could be an incredibly complex mechanism with predetermined purpose with which things like fate could be intertwined.
I think the main problem with the conflict of modern world knowledge and medieval thinking is, that in the medieval ages the modern age knowledge would be just one of the theories created and very exotic to boot. At the time there was no way to proove one or another and thus it could be anything. It's easier to assume real world laws do apply, but it could really be quite alike in daily interaction, but getting more and more weird the deeper one tries to examine what lies underneath.
you say that something similar to atoms has to exist for evaporation and everything.
How about all those things are made by divine magic, stone has all it proprieties by divine magic, all possible interaction are caused by divine magic which might change over time.
Divine magic can't be perceived by detect magic, except by other divine magic (= gods). For the same reason gods don't fight wars on the material plane, they don't change the laws of "nature".
This explanation seems to me the easiest to explain everything, of course it doesn't help a player to do something beyond the direct wording of the GM.
That Baghdad Battery thing is awesome. I can't believe I haven't heard of that before now. The little bit at the bottom of the wiki about using it for religious experience was definitely... inspiring. :D
As far as the discussion about atoms and elements, I wonder how you'd explain things like gems and precious metals without at least a passing knowledge of the [archaic] periodic table. I like the idea of using the four classical elements as the basis of everything, but it can get very complicated. What is electricity? Metal? (I label those two as fire and earth respectively, but whatever floats your boat.)
The most science-y I've been able to make that sound is to say that all four elements are required for life to flourish.
Examples:
1) Tree = earth (soil for nutrients), water (duh), air (carbon dioxide), and fire (sunlight).
2) Beasts/creatures are a bit more complex. Humans, for instance, are mostly water, with some other elements (earth), that breathe air, and produce an electromagnetic field (fire, derived from the infinitesimal electrical charges that our bodies produce).
EDIT: I don't think I actually made a point... I just kinda barfed up whatever I was thinking. Sorry for that.
|
|
2) Beasts/creatures are a bit more complex. Humans, for instance, are mostly water, with some other elements (earth), that breathe air, and produce an electromagnetic field (fire, derived from the infinitesimal electrical charges that our bodies produce).
I use body heat for 'fire,' and the process of digestion, where matter is broken down inside the body to liberate the calories (heat) within.
Undead, such as vampires, for instance, reject the element of air, as they no longer breathe, reject the element of fire, as they have no more body heat, reject the element of water, as they no longer drink water to survive, and in their first moments, rejected the element of earth, as they crawled from the grave, instead of returning to the earth as intended.
And the elements reject them right back. The light of the sun, the primal source of fire, burns them. They cannot cross running water and, in some cases, can even be destroyed by running water. The trees that grow from the earth's embrace can stake them and turn them back into the dust from which they refused to return.
And something, something involving air that hasn't occured to me yet. :)
But atoms would still need to exist (or be simulated by a similar mechanism) for stuff like surface tension, evaporation, solubility, etcetera to act in a way that doesn't threaten verisimilitude.
Human beings lived for a long time without believing atoms existed, and it didn't threaten their feeling of verisimilitude in any way. :-)
funny thing about science in the game, i am totally into the idea of a medieval/rennaissance rogue scientist in the game world. where i have more difficulty is the gun slinger. Golarion has guns, cool. but the gunslinger feels about 200 years out of place. and thats 200 in the the wrong direction.
The alchemist feels a hell of alot better when you use him keeping in mind the thought process of scientists in the 13th through 15th cenuries. there was no concept of atoms, or microorganisms. the 4 elements made up all things, people were pretty sure that you could use mercury to turn iron into gold, they were just unsure how. black powder was there and it blew up if lit, but there wasnt much of a scientific reason for it other than the earth it was made from must also have been heavily infused with fire.
That Baghdad Battery thing is awesome. I can't believe I haven't heard of that before now. The little bit at the bottom of the wiki about using it for religious experience was definitely... inspiring. :D
As far as the discussion about atoms and elements, I wonder how you'd explain things like gems and precious metals without at least a passing knowledge of the [archaic] periodic table. I like the idea of using the four classical elements as the basis of everything, but it can get very complicated. What is electricity? Metal? (I label those two as fire and earth respectively, but whatever floats your boat.)
The most science-y I've been able to make that sound is to say that all four elements are required for life to flourish.
Examples:
1) Tree = earth (soil for nutrients), water (duh), air (carbon dioxide), and fire (sunlight).2) Beasts/creatures are a bit more complex. Humans, for instance, are mostly water, with some other elements (earth), that breathe air, and produce an electromagnetic field (fire, derived from the infinitesimal electrical charges that our bodies produce).
EDIT: I don't think I actually made a point... I just kinda barfed up whatever I was thinking. Sorry for that.
If you look at historic alchemy, you'll find an explanation for just about everything, but you need to remember that there's Western Alchemy, Eastern Alchemy, and Indian Alchemy which the other two sprang out of. That way you can have the Four elements in the west but Five elements in the east and they're not exactly the same ones either.
As for gems and where they come from, it's well known that diamonds are superfrozen ice, bloodstones come from the petrified blood of saints or the foreheads of toads, and rubies come from the interaction of the blood of decapitated maidens with the hair of ungroomed gods.
That Baghdad Battery thing is awesome. I can't believe I haven't heard of that before now. The little bit at the bottom of the wiki about using it for religious experience was definitely... inspiring. :D\
-I can't believe you missed the opportunity to use shocking there...:k
If you look at historic alchemy, you'll find an explanation for just about everything, but you need to remember that there's Western Alchemy, Eastern Alchemy, and Indian Alchemy which the other two sprang out of. That way you can have the Four elements in the west but Five elements in the east and they're not exactly the same ones either.
As for gems and where they come from, it's well known that diamonds are superfrozen ice, bloodstones come from the petrified blood of saints or the foreheads of toads, and rubies come from the interaction of the blood of decapitated maidens with the hair of ungroomed gods.
I have a passing knowledge of the Eastern elements, and the fact that air is excluded confounds me. I have an image on my hard drive depicting the generation cycle of the Eastern 5. Indian alchemy I know nothing about (unless it had some influence on Western alchemy that I've read a bit on).
What I understand about REAL alchemists is that their pursuits were not purely scientific. There was science, philosophy, mysticism, and [some other fourth word that is escaping me at this moment]. So for what it's worth, I can see alchemists being just as mysterious as wizards if not more so, because alchemy is a combination of a greater number of factors.
I have a passing knowledge of the Eastern elements, and the fact that air is excluded confounds me
Remember that for a long time people weren't sure if air existed. it wasn't until they made a vacuum pump that they proved it was there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, since alchemy and chemistry (albeit lacking a theoretical framework) are a part of most fantasy worlds, how far have they gotten? This is important because many chemical milestones (nitroglycerin, smokeless powder, the disinfectant properties of limewater and Condy's crystals, even the current high-end military explosive Cyclonite) were (or in the case of cyclonite, could easily be) discovered by guys dicking around with random chemicals that were definitely known during the medieval period (if only by Moslems).
I think a large part of the answer is in the question. Necessity is the mother of invention. If one can cast cloudkill, what need is there for poison gas? Why try to use mage hand to do molecular engineering when you can just cast polymorph object?
On the other hand, they seem to have a strong technological foundation. They have blacksmithing down, which is no small feat. If you consider that IRL we are still technically in the Iron Age, they aren't far behind.
They can do things with magic we can't replicate with science. It's highly likely that any progress or research happening in this setting is magical, not technological. They are much more likely to start mass production of household magical devices than internal combustion engines. The problems their world may someday face are more likely to be from the abuse of magical energy, which may begin to wear on the fabric of spacetime...
Speaking of which, of course there are atoms. Otherwise the fantasy world would be so incomprehensibly alien to us that it wouldn't warrant discussion. For that matter, of course there is physics, too. It's just that in some select instances, real-world science screws up game balance. The fantasy world is necessarily, partially dissociated from the real world. But, if these basics weren't there, fire wouldn't burn, constellations would change randomly, and engineers would be about as useful as the lottery. Science is only possible because things generally make sense. If things generally don't make sense in the game world, even magic wouldn't function predictably.
So, since alchemy and chemistry (albeit lacking a theoretical framework) are a part of most fantasy worlds, how far have they gotten? This is important because many chemical milestones (nitroglycerin, smokeless powder, the disinfectant properties of limewater and Condy's crystals, even the current high-end military explosive Cyclonite) were (or in the case of cyclonite, could easily be) discovered by guys dicking around with random chemicals that were definitely known during the medieval period (if only by Moslems).I think a large part of the answer is in the question. Necessity is the mother of invention. If one can cast cloudkill, what need is there for poison gas? Why try to use mage hand to do molecular engineering when you can just cast polymorph object?
On the other hand, they seem to have a strong technological foundation. They have blacksmithing down, which is no small feat. If you consider that IRL we are still technically in the Iron Age, they aren't far behind.
They can do things with magic we can't replicate with science. It's highly likely that any progress or research happening in this setting is magical, not technological. They are much more likely to start mass production of household magical devices than internal combustion engines. The problems their world may someday face are more likely to be from the abuse of magical energy, which may begin to wear on the fabric of spacetime...
Speaking of which, of course there are atoms. Otherwise the fantasy world would be so incomprehensibly alien to us that it wouldn't warrant discussion. For that matter, of course there is physics, too. It's just that in some select instances, real-world science screws up game balance. The fantasy world is necessarily, partially dissociated from the real world. But, if these basics weren't there, fire wouldn't burn, constellations would change randomly, and engineers would be about as useful as the lottery. Science is only possible because things generally make sense. If...
+1000000.
Though, if wizards are rare, technological solutions might crop up just to ease demand for such services.
But atoms would still need to exist (or be simulated by a similar mechanism) for stuff like surface tension, evaporation, solubility, etcetera to act in a way that doesn't threaten verisimilitude.Human beings lived for a long time without believing atoms existed, and it didn't threaten their feeling of verisimilitude in any way. :-)
(I apologize in advance for the sarcasm, but I just couldn't resist).
"Because clearly, atoms don't exist if you don't believe in them."