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So a performance made by a figment can convey the effects of Bardic performance?
I doubt it.Read more carefully. He didn't say cast ventriloquism, he said Perform ventriloquism. As in a ventriloquist act.
That aside, speaking as if he was actually referring to the spell...
Of course it can't, because it's not the figment that's providing the effect. The figment is just masking the origin of the effect. Read the figment description more closely: it's saying that the figment cannot produce an effect by its own power. There's no question of that with ventriloquism; the bard is producing the performance. The ventriloquism spell merely makes it sound like the performance is coming from some other location.
Your programmed image strawman is just that: a strawman. It's superficially similar, but once you actually examine it, your assertion that allowing ventriloquism to redirect the source of a bardic performance would therefore allow programmed image to generate a bardic performance without the bard actually performing is disproved. You're saying that a change in the origin of an already-existing effect is the same as generating that effect. That's patently false.
While you are right about the difference between "performing ventriloquism" and "casting ventriloquism", you are falling in the same error or not reading accurately what I wrote and instead fixing on the reductio ad absurdum of what would happen if that was allowed.
The key part is: "So a performance made by a figment can convey the effects of Bardic performance?"
The bard is performing, but he can't convey that performance through the Ventriloquism spell.
Ventriloquism
School illusion (figment); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it).
1) I would totally change the bard power, giving him the capacity to use it at range;
2) the bard power is a magical effect. Unless especially stated in the spell can't manipulate another magical effect.
Performing ventriloquism. so you can shift the apparent location from where your voice came by a 1' feet or so? That kind of imprecision in your location is the reason why even pinpointed you benefit from a 50% miss chance.
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Performing and stealth:
Inspire Competence (Su): A bard of 3rd level or higher can use his performance to help an ally succeed at a task. That ally must be within 30 feet and be able to hear the bard. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as she continues to hear the bard's performance. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the bard has attained beyond 3rd (+3 at 7th, +4 at 11th, +5 at 15th, and +6 at 19th). Certain uses of this ability are infeasible, such as Stealth, and may be disallowed at the GM's discretion. A bard can't inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence relies on audible components.
Oh wait, the rules make an example exactly of that. And say it is infeasible.
If you succeed the save against Ventriloquism, you recognize the sound as illusory, but still hear it.
The sound is illusory, it says so in the spell description. It's not real sound coming from somewhere else, it's illusory sound coming from wherever you want it.
Programmed Image isn't a strawmam, it's illusory sound coming from some source. Ventriloquism is illusory sound coming from some source. They're exactly the same.
I wonder how many more Stealth threads have to be made before the developers understand that clarification is necessary.
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Yes, the rules are a bit of a mess.
What is needed is a collection of the dispersed rules and some correction in the modifiers:
Invisible creature is... Perception*
In combat or speaking –20
Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving –40 (it should be changed to +20*)
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15
Those are modificators to the DC of finding a invisible creature.
Correction missing from the PRD:
* In the Appendix, on page 563, in the "Invisible Creature is..." table, the header of the second column has been changed to "Perception DC Modifier." Additionally, the entry for "Not Moving" has been changed from "–40" to "+20."
I suppose that the modifiers: Behind an obstacle (door) +5 and Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 mean a open or partially open door and a waist to shoulder height or similar wall, a closed door or a wall higher than the invisible subject will make it impossible to detect him by sight.
if a bard is using bardic music while invisible, does he give away his position?
Here's an interesting tidbit from the stealth skill: "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth."
I would definitely say that listening to a bardic performance qualifies as 'observing' it using the sense of sound. So, you can't 'stealth' a performance.
I look at this the same as if you were trying to find the creature as if you were blinded. This is normally a Perception check as a free action with a DC equal to the opponents' Stealth check. From the above we know that the bard can't use stealth. So, I would think it then be a Perception check vs. the DC to detect the performance.
Since, bardic performances are language dependent it, it would seem that you would need to understand what is being sung so that seems to correspond best to "hear the details of a conversation"--DC 0. I know some are going to say that is overly harsh, but think about it. That is the same as walking into a room and seeing someone standing in the middle of the room, which seems about as difficult as walking blind-folded into a room and determining that someone is playing music.
Success means you know that the bard is "over there somewhere." If you beat the DC by 20 it reveals the bard's square (although the bard still has total concealment).
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Okay, I'm satisfied that by RAW the bard can't Stealth and would be relatively easy (DC15-20) to find. I like BNW's summary and suggested something similar up-thread a ways.
A singing bard can be found by anyone with hearing the same way that a creature with scent can find any invisible opponent. Invisibility renders you undetectable by sight, not not sound, smell, or touch. Its easy to note the general direction of the noise, and when you're within 5 feet you know the square.
Now, are we ready to talk house rules? Stepping out of RAW, sound and scent are different from vision. They are treated the same in the new all-in-one Perception, but in RL they are different. With sight, you see something, and it's right there; it's binary information - it's either there or not there. But with sound (unless you're a bat w/ echolocation) and smell, the information emanates from the target and spreads out in an area. It's almost like, even without doing anything, we're all under the effects of an aural and olfactory Blur spell, which grants 20% Concealment (from PRD: "The subject's outline appears blurred, shifting, and wavering. This distortion grants the subject concealment (20% miss chance)"), which is enough to use Stealth.
So, while the RAW does not demand it nor even really support it, I might be tempted to let an invisible character use Stealth even if making noise or giving off odor. One cannot hide in plain sight, but there is no equivalent to in-plain-hearing or in-plain-smell. Someone can be right next to you, but behind a couch, and yell, and you still mighht not be exactly sure where they are. Or how many movie scenes do you have with the bloodhound or ringwraith right next to the hero, sniffing, but it can't quite get a fix on the smell. I'm thinking that hearing and scent might be imprecise enough that it might be okay to let someone who is otherwise not-visible go ahead and attempt a Stealth versus Perception via sound or smell.
What'd'ya think?
Hearing isn't a targeting sense, but it is a directional sense. You have two ears for a reason: it lets you (roughly) determine distance through triangulation. If you have a person singing while you're blind folded its mere childsplay to walk over to them.
under the old rules the DC to pinpoint a singing bard with listen would be 0 (can't use move silently) +20 (pointpoint rather than merely notice a creature) for a DC of 20. The insane dc of 40 to use perception is an artifact from the last edition that didn't get changed when spot, listen, and search got merged into the same skill.