I am creating an archetype that will allow someone to make unarmed strikes and a bite attack. The phrasing I have used for the bite attack is: "gain a 1d6 bite attack as a primary natural attack".
This archetype also gains the monk's Unarmed Strike ability.
So just to confirm I want this archetype to be able to make 1 unarmed strike and 1 bite at no penalty.
I also want the archetype to be able to make 2 unarmed strikes and 1 bite as per the two weapon fighting penalties.
Ideally I would like any unarmed strikes made to be deemed natural attacks.
If I am reading the rules correctly, unarmed strikes are treated as weapons (not natural attacks) so combining them with a natural attack (a bite) causes the bite to become a secondary natural attack suffering a -5 attack penalty and limits to 1/2 Str mod for damage.
Is this interpretation correct?
Can anyone suggest the "proper" phrasing to achieve what I am trying to create?
Thanks.
I am creating an archetype that will allow someone to make unarmed strikes and a bite attack. The phrasing I have used for the bite attack is: "gain a 1d6 bite attack as a primary natural attack".
This archetype also gains the monk's Unarmed Strike ability.
So just to confirm I want this archetype to be able to make 1 unarmed strike and 1 bite at no penalty.
I also want the archetype to be able to make 2 unarmed strikes and 1 bite as per the two weapon fighting penalties.
Ideally I would like any unarmed strikes made to be deemed natural attacks.
If I am reading the rules correctly, unarmed strikes are treated as weapons (not natural attacks) so combining them with a natural attack (a bite) causes the bite to become a secondary natural attack suffering a -5 attack penalty and limits to 1/2 Str mod for damage.
Is this interpretation correct?
Can anyone suggest the "proper" phrasing to achieve what I am trying to create?Thanks.
You could leave the unarmed strike out of it and grant a bite and slam attacks as primary natural attacks so full damage is done (basically give up unarmed strikes/flurry and trade them for natural attacks/multiattack/improved natural attack feats gained on a similar progression to flurry and unarmed strike damage).
Either that or add some wording where that single bite attack is a viable attack for flurry of blow (which I'm guessing is where you are heading with it). "The bite attack granted by the archetype can be substituted for any one single attack when making a flurry of blows attack action." Or something to that effect would cover it I would imagine. I think that would cover both the full str bonus, as well as allowing 3 attacks (at the beginning flurry for 2 at full str and bite as a natural/secondary attack at half str).
I know of text which stipulates that the Monk's Unarmed Strike is considered to be either a weapon or a natural attack for the purposes of benefits, such as from feats or spells. The intention being, for example, that a Monk could receive both a Magic Weapon or a Magic Fang spell.
Where does it seem to specifically limit its use as a weapon?
Nope. Read the last paragraph of Flurry of Blows. It specifically denied natural attacks in addition to the FoB.
i find nothing wrong with allowing the combination of natural attacks with a flurry of blows. monks need all the damage bonuses that they can get. i'd also let it function as a primary natural attack and allow additional claw and kick attacks into the routine.
The devs seem pretty against Monks dealing that much damage -- they want you to play a Fighter if that's your goal.
Most recently, I think, was the fact that Amulet of Mighty Blows was arguably stackable with enchanted Brass Knuckles, so a Monk could have +12 worth of magical bonuses for about 8k over the cost of a +10. Brass Knuckles have since been nerfed.
i find nothing wrong with allowing the combination of natural attacks with a flurry of blows. monks need all the damage bonuses that they can get. i'd also let it function as a primary natural attack and allow additional claw and kick attacks into the routine.
The rules disagree with you (obviously or else the OP wouldn't be here posting in the Rules forum). Seeing as they are making up an archetype, the OP is looking for a a way to make it "legal" by the book. Maybe it should have been placed in the advice/houserule forum but it is still a question about a particular rule, so close enough for me.
i find nothing wrong with allowing the combination of natural attacks with a flurry of blows. monks need all the damage bonuses that they can get. i'd also let it function as a primary natural attack and allow additional claw and kick attacks into the routine.The rules disagree with you (obviously or else the OP wouldn't be here posting in the Rules forum). Seeing as they are making up an archetype, the OP is looking for a a way to make it "legal" by the book. Maybe it should have been placed in the advice/houserule forum but it is still a question about a particular rule, so close enough for me.
PHB Page 182, last paragraph indicates that unarmed strikes are not natural attacks.
I think rather than trying to reinvent some rules, I'm going to go with the suggestion of just making the attacks be slam attacks. It is for an orc-archetype so I think it is fitting. On the down side this does give them 3 attacks at no penalty. I guess I can always make the bite a secondary attack when used in combination with the slams.
Hrmm, much to think about.
Thanks all.
I think rather than trying to reinvent some rules, I'm going to go with the suggestion of just making the attacks be slam attacks. It is for an orc-archetype so I think it is fitting. On the down side this does give them 3 attacks at no penalty. I guess I can always make the bite a secondary attack when used in combination with the slams.
.
Hrmm, much to think about.
.
Thanks all.
Doing that doesn't have to give them 3 attacks at no penalty, as you are making an archetype, you can quite literally give them a single slam and bite attack at first level (and then at a later level grant another slam attack or some such). Just because they have 2 arms doesn't mean they have to have 2 slam attacks. While it may seem wonky, if you are worried about balance, that is justification enough to do it. Better to error on the side of just not enough then give them more if it seems like it is needed.
Just because they have 2 arms doesn't mean they have to have 2 slam attacks. While it may seem wonky, if you are worried about balance, that is justification enough to do it. Better to error on the side of just not enough then give them more if it seems like it is needed.
I hate it when I cannot think outside of the box :)
Thanks for the suggestion.
What about giving them an ability that allows them to negate all or parts of the penalty for using secondary natural attacks? That way you don't have to invent new rules for meshing iterative and natural attacks.
If your aim is to use "Flurry of Blows" + 1 Bite, then this should work:
"You gain the following Natural Attacks; 1 Slam Attack and 1 Bite Attack, both count as Primary Natural Attacks.
You may use the Slam Attack as if you were using Flurry of Blows and combine with all rules regarding Flurry of Blows.
You may additionally use your Bite when you perform a Flurry of Blows using Slam.
This ability replaces Flurry of Blows."