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It seems to me that PFS writers have an unhealthy obsession with sending swarms at first level characters. If you don't have reliable splash or area effect damage, you're done. Not cool. I've also seen scenarios written for first level characters that include DR 5 mobs that aren't even bosses. One mod we ran 1rst levels though even had a boss with both DR AND fast healing, not to mention flight.
I imagine challenge was the aim, but I cry foul. A module should be challenging, yes, but not structured such that only a certain party configuration can even face it. Add to this the fact that first level characters die if a party member sneezes on them too hard. DR and Swarms should be used with extreme reluctance on first level characters.
so change the the story use a different monster, or give your pc some thing to use in that encounter, let the player be creative, fudge rolls, post on the boards and complain, all great options.
mid level swarm, we used a decanter of endless water and just sprayed them away and ran. not as good as setting your self on fire but it worked.
oh you can also just run away too.
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As these are in Org Play scenarios, GMs shouldn't really be changing the monsters.
Geckosith is correct that swarms are a frequent opponent. It has been commented on many times. So groups should be prepared for them...
Here's a few suggestions:
Alchemists and area casters take out swarms very quickly, as do negative channeling clerics.
Most low-level characters should have alchemist's fire (or something similar) as soon as they can afford it.
Most swarms are not that quick, and often do not have treasure - you can usually run away without missing out.
Swarms are usually a problem if the party is composed of characters focused on combat against single foes... diversity in a group helps.
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Ha! I like that, Celie.
I know alchemist's fire is available, I just hate the idea of having to spend my money on it. I want to save my cash up for better items. It's a pain. I shouldn't have to carry around a ton of the stuff just in case there might be a swarm.
The belief that you can always "save up for that item at level X" is one that will likely get you killed. I've watched 4th level players balk at chipping in 200 gp for an item that will all but guarantee their mission's success because it might delay the the purchase of their "better item" by one scenario. Naturally they failed their mission, lost out on a boon, and even lost out on gold that would have more than covered their expense.
Here's a few suggestions:Alchemists and area casters take out swarms very quickly, as do negative channeling clerics.
Most low-level characters should have alchemist's fire (or something similar) as soon as they can afford it.
Most swarms are not that quick, and often do not have treasure - you can usually run away without missing out.
A few caveats:
-A first level spellcaster casting Burning Hands (say) is basically useless against a swarm. Or at least overrated.
-It's not clear if you can attack a spider swarm (say) with alchemist's fire, since they're immune to weapon attacks and immune to effects that only target one creature. The splash would work, but that's only 1 point of damage. (I think most GMs I've played with allowed alchemist's fire to work, though.)
-Most parties have at least one slow member, so running away is rarely an option.
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Please remember that swarms are often mindless. Often there is no obvious reason for them to keep pursuing/attacking the party.
Also make sure you read the swarm's 'during combat' tactics. I've seen at least one swarm that has tactics of 'disperses when at half life instead of at 0'that DMs have played wrong
Please remember that swarms are often mindless. Often there is no obvious reason for them to keep pursuing/attacking the party.
Then that should be written into the monster's tactics, IMO. "I'm hungry and I won't give up a free meal" is just as plausible a motivation as "you're stepping on my turf and I want you to go away".
One more caveat that I forgot:
-Using alchemist's fire against a swarm is also problematic because swarms have quite high touch ACs due to size modifiers and good Dex scores. Likewise, swarms often have a fairly good Reflex save and so area attacks aren't guaranteed to succeed.
On the bright side, most swarms that I've seen in low-level adventures have been rat swarms; those are easy to kill with weapon damage, especially considering that a swarm provokes an AoO when it enters your square.
Also, the splash effect of alchemist's fire isn't really designed as a single creature target effect. I believe the bestiary specifically mentions the "disintegrate" spell as an example of one that would not work on swarms because in the description for the spell, it states something like "only one creature can be targeted".
I've had GMs who've allowed ranged touch stuff like direct hits with alchemist's fire or Scorching Ray to work against swarms, and I've had GMs who've disallowed them. So it's something to watch out for.
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-It's not clear if you can attack a spider swarm (say) with alchemist's fire, since they're immune to weapon attacks and immune to effects that only target one creature. The splash would work, but that's only 1 point of damage. (I think most GMs I've played with allowed alchemist's fire to work, though.)
While I agree with most of what Hogarth said, I will point out:
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or f lanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mindaffecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
I've had DMs (not PFS GMs) rule that that sentence applies to the area effect part of a splash weapon only. So a splash from alchemist's fire would do 1.5 damage...rounded down to 1. :-(
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Wow, I never knew that. Thanks!A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
You learn something new every day. After re-reading this I realized that swarms made from tiny creatures (such as rat swarms) take full damage from bludgeoning weapons. I never realized that before.
Blunt weapons work just fine? *facepalm*Are you sure? Can't seem to find that part.
"A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage."
So presumably a swarm made up of Tiny creatures is not immune to blunt weapon damage, nor does it take half damage from blunt weapons.
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Blunt weapons work just fine? *facepalm*Are you sure? Can't seem to find that part."A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage."
So presumably a swarm made up of Tiny creatures is not immune to blunt weapon damage, nor does it take half damage from blunt weapons.
Sir, your logic is infallible. :)
Can't believe I didn't pick that up. lol|
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Of course you can also use your imagination when fighting them. One group I was with couldn't hurt the 3 (shudder) swarms we were fighting so my character and another character dropped a flipped over stone table on the swarm. Since it took up the whole square the GM ruled that it damaged the swarm (essentially an area attack). Another player then began jumping on the table for his attack before the swarm could crawl out.
Heck, a tower shield might work as well.
There's usually other options.
A better question would be: who ienjoys/ fighting swarms?
they should not be left out of PFS modules because they are tough, they should be left out because nobody likes them.
I don't mind swarms that can be damaged by weapons; the ones that are immune to weapon damage are kind of a tedious slog, though.
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A better question would be: who ienjoys/ fighting swarms?
they should not be left out of PFS modules because they are tough, they should be left out because nobody likes them.
I like fighting them, and I LOVE using them as a GM. They are one of the few ways you can teach brand new parties that you need to prepare for the worst and be more than a one trick pony. Better to learn it sooner at level 1 than to learn it at 9 or 10.
I mean, alchemist fire and/or acid flask is/are cheap and should be part of a standard purchase for any character. I don't care who you are.
/We can't base our opinions off of what people don't like. Do that and then we'll hear how no one likes _____ creatures, they should be gone too.
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A better question would be: who ienjoys/ fighting swarms?
they should not be left out of PFS modules because they are tough, they should be left out because nobody likes them.I like fighting them, and I LOVE using them as a GM. They are one of the few ways you can teach brand new parties that you need to prepare for the worst and be more than a one trick pony. Better to learn it sooner at level 1 than to learn it at 9 or 10.
I mean, alchemist fire and/or acid flask is/are cheap and should be part of a standard purchase for any character. I don't care who you are.
/We can't base our opinions off of what people don't like. Do that and then we'll hear how no one likes _____ creatures, they should be gone too.
Problem comes in with an all heavy melee party, all newbies, which can barely afford sub-par equipment for their primary function, much less afford any of their starting gold for consumables.
10% of 150 GP is 15 GP, not enough for an alchemist's fire, matybe enmough for a single acid flask, along with 2 sunrods, and 2 days of trail rations.
For a Sorceror, not a big deal. For a Fighter? Serious hit to the valuable equipment required for his primary role. 135 GP, split amongst armor, melee weapon and ranged weapon, not counting weapon damage types, and the light weapon needed if you get into a grapple....
Hopefully, this will be corrected for any characters that go through the new 3-part 1st level series, due out late next month. But for current conditions, an all-new party is going to be light on swarm control.
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Oil 1sp
No, it's not a great way to deal with a swarm but it does the job in a pinch.
Aside from that, you are overestimating the requirement for gear at 1st level.
studded leather: 25gp
great axe: 20gp or longsword 15gp
3 daggers: 6gp
sling: free
sling bullets: 1sp
light steel shield: 9gp
total: 51-55gp
Your AC isn't great but at first level it's not expected to be great. You are don't want to spend a ton on a weapon or armor at first level regardless because you are going to have to sell it and buy a masterwork version after 1-2 sessions.
To me the big problem with swarms at first level is simply that new to PFS players don't expect them and just don't know alch fire is important. Heck I just forgot about it last time I created a character.
Swarms are interesting and challenging the first time you meet them, still interesting but not so challenging the second time, easily controlled the third, a bit boring the fourth and simply tedious from then on. And that's from the player's perspective, not the characters IMHO.
The biggest problem with swarms is that they have no personality (and I know the irony of that statement). If different types of swarms did radically different things then it might stay interesting for longer. At the moment it's a case of "throw acid at them, or burning hands, next!"
A swarm with a hive mind that had achieved sentience and become an oracle of flame, with fire resistance and was capable of casting burning hands whilst smothering you would be interesting... Particularly if it was diminutive. You could then add fire and acid resistant trolls to the same mod.
To me the big problem with swarms at first level is simply that new to PFS players don't expect them and just don't know alch fire is important. Heck I just forgot about it last time I created a character.
Again, alchemist's fire isn't quite the panacea people are making it out to be, due to the high touch ACs for swarms. A spider swarm has a touch AC of 17; that's tough for a level 1 character to hit, and a single alchemist's fire isn't enough to kill it, on average. And that's assuming that your GM lets you do the single-target direct hit damage in the first place!
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Problem comes in with an all heavy melee party, all newbies, which can barely afford sub-par equipment for their primary function, much less afford any of their starting gold for consumables.
10% of 150 GP is 15 GP, not enough for an alchemist's fire, matybe enmough for a single acid flask, along with 2 sunrods, and 2 days of trail rations.
For a Sorceror, not a big deal. For a Fighter? Serious hit to the valuable equipment required for his primary role. 135 GP, split amongst armor, melee weapon and ranged weapon, not counting weapon damage types, and the light weapon needed if you get into a grapple....
Hopefully, this will be corrected for any characters that go through the new 3-part 1st level series, due out late next month. But for current conditions, an all-new party is going to be light on swarm control.
I have no sympathy for all melee heavy parties. Better to learn to diversify at level 1 and have a TPK than to go on with the false safety that melee will save your butt (I learned it the way, it's why I now have a level 12 cleric).
Also, if you're tricking out your character at 1 to deal all different types of weapon damage, well then you're probably smart enough to know swarms will be an issue. I would also argue that getting the wide range of weapons at level 1 is not a smart decision to go with, but that's another issue entirely...
No item should be of serious value to you at level one, unless you have an heirloom weapon or bonded item. Other than that, all your gear will be replaced (for the most part) by level 3 at the latest.
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I have no sympathy for all melee heavy parties. Better to learn to diversify at level 1 and have a TPK than to go on with the false safety that melee will save your butt (I learned it the way, it's why I now have a level 12 cleric).
This is a very unfair attitude to have to players in general. The point of Pathfinder Society is that you get to play anywhere with whatever other players show up. Players can't "diversify" if they don't know who they will be playing with week-to-week. It's easy to cherry pick a table or formulate your own uber-group if you're in that kind of setting, but I've discovered as a coordinator in op game days sometimes you just have to let the tables fall as they may. Is a all-fighter table optimal? No, but I can tell you from experience that a table of all low charisma fighters and barbarians can make a role-play module a blast to play and it's not the absolute end of the world when it happens.
Swarms have one usual weakness everybody forgets about, they're mindless. Toss a few rations at them and run, chances are you'll not see them again.
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This is a very unfair attitude to have to players in general. The point of Pathfinder Society is that you get to play anywhere with whatever other players show up. Players can't "diversify" if they don't know who they will be playing with week-to-week. It's easy to cherry pick a table or formulate your own uber-group if you're in that kind of setting, but I've discovered as a coordinator in op game days sometimes you just have to let the tables fall as they may. Is a all-fighter table optimal? No, but I can tell you from experience that a table of all low charisma fighters and barbarians can make a role-play module a blast to play and it's not the absolute end of the world when it happens.
Swarms have one usual weakness everybody forgets about, they're mindless. Toss a few rations at them and run, chances are you'll not see them again.
Do I have fun with an all melee party? Yes, of course. I end up facepalming more often out of the sheer ridiculousness of the group (especially when the lowest charisma guy ends up being the face).
The lack of sympathy comes when faced with encounters that a group of all unprepared melee, because it only gets worse the higher in level you go. I would hate to see a group of all melee characters level up together and go into something like Sarkorian Prophecy, because that would just be a slaughterhouse. In fact, most 7-11s would eat all melee parties alive.
I have regular folks I play with, but I also run gamedays / GM for other gamedays in the area. I guess I'm just fortunate to be in an area that already diversifies their classes, even with new folks (it's been a while since I've had a straight melee party). Hell, even the Cons I've been too I've rarely had a melee party.
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A torch is 1 cp, does 1d3 bludgeoning and 1 fire.
I'd want to argue that waving it around in a swarm would do the full damage, but even 1 pt is better than nothing.
Keros Oil is 5 gp and does 1d3 fire as a ranged touch attack with 10 shots.
Vermin Repellent is also 5gp and forces the swarm to make a FORT sv to enter your square.
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No, but I can tell you from experience that a table of all low charisma fighters and barbarians can make a role-play module a blast to play and it's not the absolute end of the world when it happens.
I remember that module:
And that was but a tidbit of the fun we had being thugs.
A torch is 1 cp, does 1d3 bludgeoning and 1 fire.
I'd want to argue that waving it around in a swarm would do the full damage, but even 1 pt is better than nothing.
Don't forget the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon. :-/
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To me the big problem with swarms at first level is simply that new to PFS players don't expect them and just don't know alch fire is important. Heck I just forgot about it last time I created a character.Again, alchemist's fire isn't quite the panacea people are making it out to be, due to the high touch ACs for swarms. A spider swarm has a touch AC of 17; that's tough for a level 1 character to hit, and a single alchemist's fire isn't enough to kill it, on average. And that's assuming that your GM lets you do the single-target direct hit damage in the first place!
I have never had a GM say you couldn't target a swarm with a splash weapon. (and I don't particularly want to be at a table where the GM rules that way either)
It's definitely a tough encounter for a group that is not prepared for one.
What frustrates me is the gimmicky nature of it. If you have the right equipment (or the right spells/ classes) it's easy but if you don't it's deadly. This same binary theme is pervasive in PFS play. Swarms, Darkness, Deeper Darkness, etc etc... All this sort of binary sort of easy/ hard nature which is irritating.
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Swarms have one usual weakness everybody forgets about, they're mindless. Toss a few rations at them and run, chances are you'll not see them again.Never had a GM let this work.
I think that is because many GM's fall into the trap of, "if it ain't written, I can't do it." or "This is supposed to be a combat, so its going to be a combat by garsh."
The guide specifically says to allow the Players to be creative and still give full rewards for said creativity.
I'd rather reward someone with ingenuity than be blinded by tradition.
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Swarms have one usual weakness everybody forgets about, they're mindless. Toss a few rations at them and run, chances are you'll not see them again.Never had a GM let this work.
That's unfortunate. I think too many GMs fall into the trap of thinking harder than they need to. Not every combat should be a tactic-fest. Swarms represent a type of creature that require that you divorce yourself from good decision making. Think about it for a second. You meet a swarm of hungry spiders. They can a) stay where they are and get a good meal or b) move elsewhere and find a good meal unbeknownst of whether whatever is near them is tasty. From a tactical perspective b is probably the more solid idea, but biologically, a is more likely.