But I'm not sure I'd want to trudge through the desert soaking wet either. It'll still be hot, now you're going to be humid, and your wet clothing is going to be really icky to trudge about in.I made the mistake of drenching myself in water to cool down in the middle of a hot (100 degree) day while I was working outside once.
ONCE.
1 minute of relief.
2 hours of torture.
You shouldn't hang me by a hook, Johnny.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Was the air as dry as a desert? If there is humidity in the air then evaporation takes longer but in the desert it would be quite rapid. Although I wouldn't want to soak all my clothes. A shirt wrapped around my head through...
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There is a limiting factor: laryngitis :-)
Seriously, cantrips have V components, so you need to speak magical words to activate them. You can't spend every seconds of a 8th hour shift speaking, even marathon speakers don't do that. They take pauses, drink water and so on.
And they take time to browse the net on their iPhones ...
It's common sense, yes, but mechanically, there's nothing in the rules that I see that puts such a limit into place. It would be nice if there were some physical limit on spell casting to such a degree. 100 a day seems way too high to me, but again, just MHO.
It is one of the basic assumption of the game: when there isn't a rule for something, default to how it work in real life.
So, 8 hours of non stop talking is problematic, a trained orator doing a 8 hours speech, with appropriate pauses, is doable. As how doing tiring is doing that kind of stuff varies from person to person and it has little influence on the game there isn't a hard rule on how much you can speak in a day. It is a GM call.Same thing for spell requiring concentration. I, as a GM, would apply a penalty to perception rolls and other actions (but not on recognizing magic auras, as that is the action you are doing) and have you tiring after a time. After all you are spending a standard action every round to maintain the spell, possibly while moving.
There is even a rule for that:
Hustle: A hustle is a jog (about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human). A character moving his speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action, is hustling when he or she moves.
and you can hustle only for 1 hour.
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Create water is not a wizard spell. Also, afaik it doesnt state the temperature of the water. Having it be as hot or cold as the surrounding air seems fair and prevents it from protecting against heat (so you need endure elements for that).
Prestidigitation
It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material.
So you're bummed out because magic solves problems?
Yep, that's exactly it! Thanks for the insight.
Yeah, AFAIK, water has no effect on heat dangers outside of dousing fire and such. If it's 110o outside, it's still 110o outside by the rules.
Check the CRB for rules on heat damage. Dousing in water stops NLD.
There is a rule in the CRB that keeps Prestidigitation from being the ultimate cantrip. The fact is that by RAW no spell should supplant the effect of a higher level spell.
Level-Appropriate
Compare the new spell to other spells in the same category and at or near the desired spell level. Pay close attention to “must have” choices like fireball, dimension door, and wall of force. If the spell is more powerful or more useful than other spells of the desired level, increase the level. If it seems weak, consider lowering the level. If there is already a similar spell in the game, pay particularly close attention to the new spell’s relative power.
Now it says things like "consider" so maybe its more of a guideline, but I've always taken this and other threads specifically about Prestidigitation to mean that when, as a GM I'm adjudicating the effect of a spell that isn't clearly defined I shouldn't allow a lower level spell to replace a higher level spell.
In short: Prestidigitation's "puff of smoke" effect should never replace an Obscuring Mist effect.
So by that reasoning, I'd never say "Sure; if you cast create water on the party every 6 seconds in the desert you can completely negate NLD" since there are more powerful spells in the game that do that. I would however grant a bonus to either the Survival check of the participants or a bonus to their saves.
Now that's simply my interpretation. In the environmental rules it says:
Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered from until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once a character has taken an amount of nonlethal damage equal to her total hit points, any further damage from a hot environment is lethal damage.
I suppose you could interpret this as dousing = no non-lethal ever, but I wouldn't. I'd say it just cures what you've taken. Furthermore, I'd also rule that "dousing" is the same as dousing a square w/non-flammable material to put out fire, which requires 20 waterskins worth of liquid per the sidebar in the same section.
... or you could just cast Endure Elements. You can see where a GM might interpret things differently from another GM?
I don't see cantrips/orisons as game breaking. The fact that you can spam them indefinitely is pretty cool IMO. As a GM there's still ways to shut them down, if you need to, but speaking as an occasional player too I have to say it's really kind of cool to imagine my 2nd level wizard walking about the dungeon, his eyes aglow with Detect Magic and tossing out Dancing Lights every so often and positioning small objects without even touching them and stuff.
Now sure, my GM could rule that the magic of the trap I'm trying to find is obscured by a couple feet of solid material or that there are areas of magical darkness winking out my lights; they could even make every brick and piece of loot in the place weigh exactly 5lbs, 1oz. But then no one wins...
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There is a rule in the CRB that keeps Prestidigitation from being the ultimate cantrip. The fact is that by RAW no spell should supplant the effect of a higher level spell.
Level-Appropriate
Compare the new spell to other spells in the same category and at or near the desired spell level. Pay close attention to “must have” choices like fireball, dimension door, and wall of force. If the spell is more powerful or more useful than other spells of the desired level, increase the level. If it seems weak, consider lowering the level. If there is already a similar spell in the game, pay particularly close attention to the new spell’s relative power.
Now it says things like "consider" so maybe its more of a guideline, but I've always taken this and other threads specifically about Prestidigitation to mean that when, as a GM I'm adjudicating the effect of a spell that isn't clearly defined I shouldn't allow a lower level spell to replace a higher level spell.
In short: Prestidigitation's "puff of smoke" effect should never replace an Obscuring Mist effect.
So by that reasoning, I'd never say "Sure; if you cast create water on the party every 6 seconds in the desert you can completely negate NLD" since there are more powerful spells in the game that do that. I would however grant a bonus to either the Survival check of the participants or a bonus to their saves.
Now that's simply my interpretation. In the environmental rules it says:
Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered from until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once a character has taken an amount of nonlethal damage equal to her total hit points, any further damage from a hot environment is lethal damage.I suppose you could interpret this as dousing = no non-lethal ever, but I wouldn't. I'd say it just cures what you've taken. Furthermore, I'd also rule that...
What you are trying to say is unclear.
It seem that you feel that people are trying to do with cantrips more than what the spell say.Getting a wet headband or cooling a drink to stave out heat exhaustion or sunstroke isn't the same thing as getting 24 hours of protection from environmental heat and cold.
Repeated castings to the two cantrips will stave off a sunstroke or heat exhaustion, but we are speaking of repeated castings that will do exactly the same thing as having a refrigerator and a large quantity of water while traversing the desert.
What the 1st level spell do (1 casting, 24 hors duration, protect from heat and cold) and the 2 cantrips do (several casting, help as having a large reserve of mundane tools) is noticeably different.
Yep, that's exactly it! Thanks for the insight.
So you're bummed out because magic solves problems?
No sweat. It's what I'm here for!
Getting a wet headband or cooling a drink to stave out heat exhaustion or sunstroke isn't the same thing as getting 24 hours of protection from environmental heat and cold.
Repeated castings to the two cantrips will stave off a sunstroke or heat exhaustion, but we are speaking of repeated castings that will do exactly the same thing as having a refrigerator and a large quantity of water while traversing the desert.
What the 1st level spell do (1 casting, 24 hors duration, protect from heat and cold) and the 2 cantrips do (several casting, help as having a large reserve of mundane tools) is noticeably different.
Sorry DR for my poor wording but you're 100% correct. What you've said is exactly what I was trying to say.
There's no way, as I interpret RAI, that dousing a guy with water in the desert is the same as making him perpetually cool for 24 hours. Cantrips shouldn't replace the effect of higher level spells.
If other GMs in this thread choose to interpret differently that's their perspective. Based on my ruling though of cantrip/orison effectiveness I've never had an issue with unlimited castings.
You shouldn't hang me by a hook, Johnny.Sorry, couldn't resist. Was the air as dry as a desert?
No. Probably should've made a little footnote that I live in Florida.
If there is humidity in the air then evaporation takes longer but in the desert it would be quite rapid. Although I wouldn't want to soak all my clothes. A shirt wrapped around my head through...
It'd still evaporate off your skin pretty quick but your clothes would remain soaked for a good bit still, and for a while you're weighed down further, with hot water dripping off of you.
Little water good. Lotta water bad.