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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |

As a synthesist summoner with my eidolion up, do I get to make my own attacks along with the eidolion's? We share abilities - does that mean attacks? If I've got a quarterstaff and it's got two claws and a bite, can I make a quarterstaff / claw / claw / bite full attack?
If I'm a tengu - which get all sword proficiencies and a natural bite - can I make a greatsword / bite / claw / claw / bite full attack?
Or do I choose each full attack whether I am using my own attack, or the eidolion's?

SlimGauge |

My DM has instructed us all to create backup characters. I've been trying to make a Synthesist summoner myself.
Originally, I would have said that the summoner is inside his fused eidolon and would not get ANY of his own attacks since his limbs are used to direct the eidolon's limbs, etc. It's not impossible to read it the way you suggest, but I doubt that's RAI.
That said, the RAW is not as clear as we'd all like.
At any rate, if you make any manufactured weapon attacks, all the other non-weapon attacks become secondary attacks. I don't think you can get two bite attacks without two mouths (with the exception of that one feat in the MM). I don't think there's an evolution for extra head, is there ?

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No. The eidolon becomes an overlaying battle armor suit in essence. You can attack with it's claw/claw/bite or you can swing a sword in its hand with your proficiency while using a shield, or you could swing two short swords in its hands if you are going the Dex/TWF method, or sword and claw with the claw being a secondary attack. (Mixing manufactured and natural weapons forces all natural weapons as secondary attacks)
The bite could be thrown in with the manufactured weapon attacks, but it also becomes a secondary attack instead of primary. The Tengu could already do that, and since the synthesist fusion also has a bite, it would possible.
In other words, you don't get your own limbs to attack with in addition to the eidolon's limbs. The eidolon has to have enough limbs and attack methods to do the attacking, but can use your weapon proficiencies instead of burning evolution points or feats to get them.

Skylancer4 |

Elyza: are you saying that - the way you read it - that I simply can't use my own limbs while 'synthesized'? If my eidolion doesn't have limbs, does that leave me without hands? : /
You are inside the eidolon, if you don't have the arm evolution you have no arms to use the staff. The archetype doesn't mention any free evolution so yes, you are without hands/arms unless you took the biped base, or paid for the arms evolution on another base. Nor would you get the racial bite attack it would seem.
You control the eidolon as if it were your own body, this is a distinct disadvantage in action economy in comparison to a normal summoner. You are in fact losing a "body" on the battlefield by choosing this archetype and all actions that extra body would have on the field of battle are gone as well.

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Elyza: are you saying that - the way you read it - that I simply can't use my own limbs while 'synthesized'? If my eidolion doesn't have limbs, does that leave me without hands? : /
You end up in the belly of your beast with your arms folded if you take, for example, the serpentine form, until you take the limbs(arms) evolution to wear as sleeves and gloves. (for lack of a better metaphor) But, then again, the serpentine form would be great for sneaking through sewer systems in a stealthy fashion before attacking from an unexpected direction. A one level dip for a rogue could be interesting. ;-)
Paizo's general rule number one has been to make balanced classes. When building an archetype that adds to a class, make sure you take enough away to balance the power level out.
The eidolon fully enveloping the summoner and requiring attacks be done with "eidolon" body parts remains balanced. The summoner still gets to use his proficiencies and feats to augment those attacks. Many of the vulnerabilities of the standard summoner go away, but so does the second full set of actions by an intelligent creature.
The other way, as you suggest, could lead to the obvious choice of a biped taking extra limbs for 2 evolution points, the two-or-multi weapon fighting feat, and having a combined total of six arms, all swinging sickles proficiently at first level, with a spare evo point to spend. That doesn't follow the Paizo power balance model, so by logic, it was not was intended. There is no hard RAW to point at, but several things about the synthesist are not clear by RAW and require RAI interpretation to find the happy medium that was desired by the authors.
I would appreciate if one of the Paizo staff created a sample synthesist at first and seventh levels to show the class as intended. Or even a biped vs quadruped at first level comparison.