Rolling for surprise is easy. I like the old adage that you roll when one or more sides becomes aware.
Based on the nature of your questions you are really asking when do the the two sides become aware.
Yes, both sides would get perception rolls to hear the other. Although in practice, most GMs don't bother to roll unless one side is actively listening. Also most of the time the check is done just outside the door when it is most favorable.
DC to hear the party approach (if they are not actively sneaking) is DC 10 (creature walking), +5 for a closed door. If you assume the monsters are taking 10 and distracted they will fail this check unless they have extremely high modifiers. No real point in all the other rolls.
The PCs might have a better chance but it all depends on what the monsters are doing. Most monsters in a dungeon won't be making as much noise as the PCs approaching.
Another way I've seen done is roll the perception check once and decrease the DC for every 10 feet approached until the DC is made.
I typically don't bother for when the door comes open to have them roll a perception check unless one side is actively hiding. Generally, no one should fail a 0 check. (Of course, with the number of INT/WIS 7 min-maxed fighters I'm seeing I might update that policy.)
PCs (and monsters) should always get perception rolls, but sometime to save from having to make a lot of rolls it is just better to hand-wave all the possible checks and give them just one.
Do the monsters get a Perception roll each round the PCs are advancing?
-The rules don't say how often you have to roll for stealth. For simplicity /sanity's sake i would only do it once while the PC's are outside. If the PCs are trudging down the hall with no attempts to be quiet
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
The rules don't say what penalty to apply to a full movement stealth, so i usually treat it as a stealth roll of 0 minus the armor check penalty. The monsters get a listen check with penalties for distance to the other side of the door and a -5 for it being through the door.
And the PCs would theoretically get the same Perception roll vs the monsters?
In a dungeon, the PC's open every door EXPECTING some blood curdling monstrosity on the other side of it. They shouldn't have to roll for surprise at all. Its like a swat team busting down the door with an armed fugitive on the other side: thats what they're there to find.
What about when the door opens -- is there another Perception roll here?
Only if the monsters are asleep. Otherwise its automatic to notice, roll initiative.
Does the party behind the door still have to roll for Surprise if they heard them approaching?
No. Their roll to hear the party WAS the roll for surprise. There is no longer a 2nd edition mechanic for independently checking for surprise. Grok the orc heard something on the other side of the door with his perception check and should have his spear ready asap.
What if the approaching party had stopped at the door and listened quietly for a few rounds?
Party stealth checks including all modifiers (use the lowest) Vs Monster listen checks with -5 penalty for the door and -1/10 feet from the listener to the party.
And the PCs would theoretically get the same Perception roll vs the monsters?In a dungeon, the PC's open every door EXPECTING some blood curdling monstrosity on the other side of it. They shouldn't have to roll for surprise at all. Its like a swat team busting down the door with an armed fugitive on the other side: thats what they're there to find.
This is a very common misconception.
"When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised. (Core Rulebook, p. 178)"
If the armed fugitive hears the SWAT team approach (he makes a successful perception check) and they do not hear him (they fail their perception check) he has surprise, they are flat-footed. He may act in the surprise round, they may not; even though they were expecting him, they were not actually aware he was behind that door.
Likewise, while the party may be expecting "some blood curdling monstrosity" it still takes them time to assess the situation and react.
My jaded opinion is that most opponents effectively lie in wait for the PCs, and the result is that if there is a surprise round, it is almost always the PCs that are on the receiving end.
When an attentive guard is in a room watching a door, the guard expects an intruder to open the door and show up exactly where the door is located. He doesn't know when, but he's prepared for it to happen.
Conversely, when someone opens the door, they have no idea what is on the other side, and they need to take stock of the situation. Ergo, PCs generally get surprised by what's behind the door, stealthy or no. If they aren't stealthy, the guards get more time to buff or signal, etc.
Not saying that's right, but that's my practical experience.
My jaded opinion is that most opponents effectively lie in wait for the PCs, and the result is that if there is a surprise round, it is almost always the PCs that are on the receiving end.
When an attentive guard is in a room watching a door, the guard expects an intruder to open the door and show up exactly where the door is located. He doesn't know when, but he's prepared for it to happen.
Conversely, when someone opens the door, they have no idea what is on the other side, and they need to take stock of the situation. Ergo, PCs generally get surprised by what's behind the door, stealthy or no. If they aren't stealthy, the guards get more time to buff or signal, etc.
Not saying that's right, but that's my practical experience.
Its DM cheese and not how the rules work.
There is nothing to prevent a party from holding actions as the door opens. The "ready" action is taken before the surprise round. When the conditions of the ready action are fulfilled they go off. So what you wind up with is a party on one side of the door saying "as soon the door opens and i see something I shoot my crossbow at it" and an orc on the other side saying "As soon as the door opens and i see something i shoot my crossbow at it" You may as well just forgo the hoopla and roll initiative.
Its DM cheese and not how the rules work.
There is nothing to prevent a party from holding actions as the door opens. The "ready" action is taken before the surprise round. When the conditions of the ready action are fulfilled they go off. So what you wind up with is a party on one side of the door saying "as soon the door opens and i see something I shoot my crossbow at it" and an orc on the other side saying "As soon as the door opens and i see something i shoot my crossbow at it" You may as well just forgo the hoopla and roll initiative.
Generally speaking, we don't go into rounds without an opponent or obstacle that requires it, so I'm not sure "readying" to shoot someone when a door opens would be meaningful. It creates complications with respect to who's ready goes off first, and who is flat footed, etc, if you aren't in rounds with established initiatives.
In our games:
Door opens.
Initiative.
Surprise round (generally for the baddies)
Standard combat.
It's a bit of cheese, but so be it.
So why not change it, if you acknowledge that it's cheese? I don't see why either side would be any less surprised when a door is thrown open. Both sides are armed to the teeth, and itching for a fight.
I wish the Surprise and Awareness rules were a little clearer and simpler. As written, I think most GMs are skipping them and doing the above because it's a lot of work to roll Perception all the time, and figure out all the appropriate modifiers.
I think I made it sound a bit worse than it is. There are perception rolls involved, but the baddies are generally stationary, using stealth, and possibly alerted to intruders in the area. The good guys are moving and include a party of quiet and loud PCs. Unless you split up the party and send the quiet players sneaking forward a round or two ahead to open every door, you are going to draw attention almost every time. As a practical matter, the bad guys generally get a surprise round unless there's a reason they aren't being attentive.
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And the PCs would theoretically get the same Perception roll vs the monsters?In a dungeon, the PC's open every door EXPECTING some blood curdling monstrosity on the other side of it. They shouldn't have to roll for surprise at all. Its like a swat team busting down the door with an armed fugitive on the other side: thats what they're there to find.
This is a very common misconception.
"When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised. (Core Rulebook, p. 178)"
If the armed fugitive hears the SWAT team approach (he makes a successful perception check) and they do not hear him (they fail their perception check) he has surprise, they are flat-footed. He may act in the surprise round, they may not; even though they were expecting him, they were not actually aware he was behind that door.
Likewise, while the party may be expecting "some blood curdling monstrosity" it still takes them time to assess the situation and react.
Supported.
Big Nose SWAT team enter a room sure to find one or more hostile guys. Sure.
But in this situation they don't know the room layout, how many hostiles, how they are armed or even what they are.
The perception roll is "rapidly looking around to evaluate the situation identify the threats and being ready to react".
Even for a SWAT team it is not a automatic roll. Most of the time it should be a very easy roll for them as a typical SWAT team member should have a high perception, but there are bad days, the moment you look first at your right and the enemy is on the left and so on.
For a PC party it can be even worse as some people don't bother taking ranks in perception and min/max wisdom away.
So waving the perception away because they are expecting to find a enemy isn't a good idea.
Its DM cheese and not how the rules work.
There is nothing to prevent a party from holding actions as the door opens. The "ready" action is taken before the surprise round. When the conditions of the ready action are fulfilled they go off. So what you wind up with is a party on one side of the door saying "as soon the door opens and i see something I shoot my crossbow at it" and an orc on the other side saying "As soon as the door opens and i see something i shoot my crossbow at it" You may as well just forgo the hoopla and roll initiative.
I may be wrong but I was under the impression that you couldn't ready an action until initiative had been rolled. So, unless you're rolling initiative before every door you can't ready an action. I personally think this rule is crap. If the rogue in the party is going to take 20 on a pick locks roll to get the door open then the baddies on the other side can ready actions to smash him when the door finally opens. If I get my guys to roll initiative every time someone gets the drop on them they'll meta-game the crap out of it.
As a sad geek GM I assume that The Enemy is at a default 10 +/- bonuses for perception/stealth and unless the PC state they are doing something fancy a default 10+/- bonuses also and as a GM I have a pretty good idea whereabouts on the map either side become aware of on another....
I need to get out more...
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My jaded opinion is that most opponents effectively lie in wait for the PCs, and the result is that if there is a surprise round, it is almost always the PCs that are on the receiving end.
When an attentive guard is in a room watching a door, the guard expects an intruder to open the door and show up exactly where the door is located. He doesn't know when, but he's prepared for it to happen.
Conversely, when someone opens the door, they have no idea what is on the other side, and they need to take stock of the situation. Ergo, PCs generally get surprised by what's behind the door, stealthy or no. If they aren't stealthy, the guards get more time to buff or signal, etc.
Not saying that's right, but that's my practical experience.
Its DM cheese and not how the rules work.
There is nothing to prevent a party from holding actions as the door opens. The "ready" action is taken before the surprise round. When the conditions of the ready action are fulfilled they go off. So what you wind up with is a party on one side of the door saying "as soon the door opens and i see something I shoot my crossbow at it" and an orc on the other side saying "As soon as the door opens and i see something i shoot my crossbow at it" You may as well just forgo the hoopla and roll initiative.
How Combat WorksCombat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:
1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to being the first normal round of combat.
4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
--
Special Initiative Actions
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.
...
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
You are violating the rules several ways.
1) you are allowing the PC to do combat actions before the combat beings;
2) you allow them to get "infinite" initiative for free.
3) you are neglecting the perception roll.
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What would really happen in your scenario.
Guy A open the door
Guy B with the ready bow see something through the door , probably in a badly lit room, take no time to identify it and shoot. Hitting furniture, a curtain or some other harmless thing 90% of the time:
In the same second another party member with a ready charge blunder through the door to attack the first thing he has seen, the mage cast his readied fireball in a 10'x10' room and so on.
Sorry, no way.
Unless the characters are total idiots they should asses the situation before acting.
If the armed fugitive hears the SWAT team approach (he makes a successful perception check) and they do not hear him (they fail their perception check) he has surprise, they are flat-footed.
He may act in the surprise round, they may not; even though they were expecting him, they were not actually aware he was behind that door.
that contracts the definition of "aware". SO what you're saying is that they got 20 guys together, put on armor, Gathered in a specific formation around the door, pointed their weapons into the door, had bob bash down the door.... and then go "huh" when they see the very reason they got 20 guys together, put on armor, Gathered in a specific formation around the door, pointed their weapons into the door, had bob bash down the door looking back at them?
Likewise, while the party may be expecting "some blood curdling monstrosity" it still takes them time to assess the situation and react.
Likewise, while the [orc] may be expecting some sort of [pink skinned fascist scum] it still takes them time to assess the situation and react. I see no reason why this time frame is shorter.
But in this situation they don't know the room layout, how many hostiles, how they are armed or even what they are.
The perception roll is "rapidly looking around to evaluate the situation identify the threats and being ready to react".
No. If the orc were hiding in the shadows i would agree with you. But in this case the argument is that the perception roll is rolled through the door BEFORE the door is opened.
You are violating the rules several ways.
1) you are allowing the PC to do combat actions before the combat beings;
-There's nothing that says that you cant.
"Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order" it changes "when you act during combat"
not "when in combat you may change how you act"
2) you allow them to get "infinite" initiative for free.
-Thats essentially what a surprise round is. You have no fair solution to the problem of two parties on opposite sides of the door. I do. I say they're aware a fights about to start. The door is kicked open, no one is surprised by this, roll initiative. If anything its the party that should have the advantage: they know exactly when the door will open. The orc does not.
3) you are neglecting the perception roll.
- The perception vs an orc standing in plain view in the middle of a brightly lit room. I really don't see the crime here.
What would really happen in your scenario.
Guy A open the door
Guy B with the ready bow see something through the door , probably in a badly lit room
AHEM. PCs are tramping down the corridor towards a door and throw it open. Behind the door is a party of whatever, it doesn't really matter. The room is well lit
take no time to identify it and shoot. Hitting furniture, a curtain or some other harmless thing 90% of the time:
In the same second another party member with a ready charge blunder through the door to attack the first thing he has seen, the mage cast his readied fireball in a 10'x10' room and so on.Sorry, no way.
Unless the characters are total idiots they should asses the situation before acting.
And by "Assess the situation" you mean stand there and be shot in the head with a cross bow and then turn to the party members and go "hey guys i think there's an enemy in here"
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Beside the little thing that I newer said that the orcs don't need to roll their perception (unless one or the other party was aware of the enemies, not simply assuming they will meet enemies in every room and that enemies will break the door at every second).
Your rooms are white boxes with the target neatly arranged in the middle of them?
Unless that is the situation you need to roll that perception to see all that is there. Who is there, what he is doing, what is there and so on.
If a SWAT team was acting your ways most of the time they would be killing hostages, innocent bystanders and the soda machine.
I don't know where you get the idea that the room should be well lit. Because your guy have a light? Try it. Place a strong light in a corridor and open the door of a room (possibly in a friend home, so you don't know perfectly the room layout) and look what is well lit and what not by the light spilling through the door.
Try it even by day in a well lit hose. Enter an unknown room and see if you immediately know his layout.
You are not "using the surprise rules" you are "gifting infinite initiative". You allow people to take pre-emptive actions for free.
If you allow that you should facto it in your guys movement.
Every room, every corner, every time something can change they are taking time to be ready to react to a set of situations. That take a lot of time and resources.
Probably allow them to correct the readied action when the situation is different by what they were aspecting.
"I get ready to fire my bow at the first thing I see" "I will use my scorching ray on the first target" "There is a big stone figure in the middle of the room", "Dammit, a golem. Well I put away my useless regular arrow and take out my adamantine one" "Oh well, if it is a golem my spell is useless, I will not fire it after all."
No way. If they act without rolling perception, they acti without rolling perception, there is something they fire, independently if it is a orc, a golme, a statue or the bound princess.
SWAT teams prefer to make entry with multiple team-members who divide the room into control zones. There is, preferably, not one man sweeping the entire room including corners from right to left -- there's multiple members, each of which enters prepared to deal with whatever they find in front of them.
Or, if you want to look at it another way
1) Door opens.
2) Orc in room is aware of party in hall. Party in hall is aware of orc. No surprise round, roll initiative.
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SWAT teams prefer to make entry with multiple team-members who divide the room into control zones. There is, preferably, not one man sweeping the entire room including corners from right to left -- there's multiple members, each of which enters prepared to deal with whatever they find in front of them.
For that they get documentation on the room layout if possible, use advanced detection equipment to know as much as possible on the position of the room occupants and try to enter from several direction if possible.
If BN group is using clairvoyance to scout the room ahead, listen to the door (and the guy within make noise), use detect evil/good ecc to try to gauge opposition and locations (when possible, it all depend on the walls thickness and composition) and so on and so forth, they are totally entitled to ready whatever action they want.
If they are walking along a corridor and bust a door open they aren't.
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So just Delay until the door is opened. Take your free Perception check, and then figure out what to do.Big Nose guys aren't reading an action because they have perceived something.
They are reading a action because there is a door.
Oh, look, just what I was saying.
You need to take your perception check. Normally it I very easy but still that guy with wisdom 7 and 0 perception skills can fail it.or maybe the room is a 60'x60' hall with a big table, hanging curtains and you can fail to notice the guy at the other end of it (or he can fail to notice you).
Your rooms are white boxes with the target neatly arranged in the middle of them?
The one in the example is yes. I answer the question for the example I'm given. Its not a little thing its the entire point of the question. The point of the question was to determine how you determine surprise with the party opening a door, not how you determine surprise with an opponent you can or can't see.
Unless that is the situation you need to roll that perception to see all that is there. Who is there, what he is doing, what is there and so on.
The party might or the party might not. some parties DO smash in the door and chuck in a fireball without looking.
If a SWAT team was acting your ways most of the time they would be killing hostages, innocent bystanders and the soda machine.
And if it worked as you're proposing they'd be corpses. I think that's why the initiative roll is fair.
I don't know where you get the idea that the room should be well lit.
Because that was what was specifically asked for in the example, in order to avoid diverting the topic into something the original poster wasn't asking.
You are not "using the surprise rules" you are "gifting infinite initiative".
The first time was a misunderstanding. This is disingenuous. My ruling is door is kicked open. Roll initiative, not infinite initiative.
You allow people to take pre-emptive actions for free.
"Hey, Blasty, Can i get one of your bull's strength spells?"
"Sorry Clanky, we're not in combat yet, i can't do anything"
Clanky punches Sneaky, the rogue.
"There, now can you cast?"
If you allow that you should facto it in your guys movement.
Every room, every corner, every time something can change they are taking time to be ready to react to a set of situations. That take a lot of time and resources.
Well.. yes. But time (especially what, 30 seconds worth per room?) isn't usually an issue. I'm playing D&D, not 24.
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You are not "using the surprise rules" you are "gifting infinite initiative".The first time was a misunderstanding. This is disingenuous. My ruling is door is kicked open. Roll initiative, not infinite initiative.
You are giving them a free ready action or not?
If it a free ready action it is infinite initiative as they all act before the guy in the room can act.
If it is " I will allow them to say what they want to do and then they go at their initiative" it isn't.
But the we are back to the normal initiative rules, with possible surprise if you fail the perception roll and all.
In a dungeon, the PC's open every door EXPECTING some blood curdling monstrosity on the other side of it. They shouldn't have to roll for surprise at all. Its like a swat team busting down the door with an armed fugitive on the other side: thats what they're there to find.-
There is nothing to prevent a party from holding actions as the door opens. The "ready" action is taken before the surprise round. When the conditions of the ready action are fulfilled they go off. So what you wind up with is a party on one side of the door saying "as soon the door opens and i see something I shoot my crossbow at it" and an orc on the other side saying "As soon as the door opens and i see something i shoot my crossbow at it" You may as well just forgo the hoopla and roll initiative.
These were your statements.
The second in particular if not a reply to the OP but to:
My jaded opinion is that most opponents effectively lie in wait for the PCs, and the result is that if there is a surprise round, it is almost always the PCs that are on the receiving end.When an attentive guard is in a room watching a door, the guard expects an intruder to open the door and show up exactly where the door is located. He doesn't know when, but he's prepared for it to happen.
Conversely, when someone opens the door, they have no idea what is on the other side, and they need to take stock of the situation. Ergo, PCs generally get surprised by what's behind the door, stealthy or no. If they aren't stealthy, the guards get more time to buff or signal, etc.
Not saying that's right, but that's my practical experience.
As they stand you say that you always allow people to ready action and to react to the room content independently from other conditions.
FarmerBob example isn't a well lit room white box, but your reply was that you would allow ready actions and instant reactions.
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Whether you can ready actions outside of combat is something that people have argued about since the concept originated.
Put me in the camp that the entire action system, including actions to change your place within initiative, only has context within combat. A character can prepare to do something if a door is opened; that's role play. He can't ready an action to do something when the door is opened. When his desired course of action is actually going to come off will be based upon the initiative (if any) that takes place once the door is open.
In response to the idea that there is nothing that says you can't ready an action outside of combat, the chapter that covers how all of this works is called Combat. It defines who goes when, what they can do, and how they can adjust their position within initiative.
Can you cast spells outside of combat, since they have a casting time defined in combat terms, such as standard action? Of course you can. But the casting time only becomes meaningful if it needs to be. The purpose of the initiative system is to handle time in small segments when the order of events is important.
If folks want to do it differently, more power to 'em. Choosing and arguing for procedure, whether as GM and as player, that allows readied actions outside of initiative, or which ignores the ragged transition between the lackadaisical time outside of initiative and the intense attention to the order of action inside of initiative, has an impact on the gaming experience.
If the armed fugitive hears the SWAT team approach (he makes a successful perception check) and they do not hear him (they fail their perception check) he has surprise, they are flat-footed.
He may act in the surprise round, they may not; even though they were expecting him, they were not actually aware he was behind that door.
that contracts the definition of "aware". SO what you're saying is that they got 20 guys together, put on armor, Gathered in a specific formation around the door, pointed their weapons into the door, had bob bash down the door.... and then go "huh" when they see the very reason they got 20 guys together, put on armor, Gathered in a specific formation around the door, pointed their weapons into the door, had bob bash down the door looking back at them?
Well, we will probably have to agree to disagree but what exactly is your definition of 'aware.'
Merriam-Webster says: having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge.
I think we are agreed that either side making its perception check would constitute as aware. I think we differ on having 'knowledge.'
If the SWAT team saw the fugitive run into that room, sure I would say they are indeed aware of him. However, if they are serving a warrant on his suspected hideout, they don't 'know' if he is there or whether it is an eighty-seven year old grandmother because they accidentally raided the wrong house. When they open the door its a surprise.
Meanwhile, the fugitive inside heard all the commotion coming from outside his door. He has a split-second to prepare because he 'knows' that something is waiting outside his door. This split-second advantage is the surprise round.
It all comes down to the fugitive 'knows,' while the SWAT team 'expects.'
You are giving them a free ready action or not?
No. Here's why. I don't consider my players "surprised" when they get ready kick down a door and kill monsters, kick down a door and then find monsters. Either
1) The monsters know that the PC's are there. If the PC's hold actions. the monsters hold actions. There's no point in both sides starting with held actions, just roll initiative.
2) The monsters don't know that the PC's are there. In this case the PC's all get a held action. But wait... everyone with one partial action before the monsters go. That's just a surprise round anyway. Roll initiative, party gets a surprise round.
The third alternative, that the monsters know that the pc's are there, so the pc's spend a moment going "Duh" while the monsters in the room get a free round of action on the PC's is absurd.
Now, keep in mind... AGAIN... THIS IS ONLY FOR THE LIT ROOM SCENARIO. The problem was the difficulty of judging surprised based on the PC's barging into a room.
If the PC's bust down the door and there's a Kobold under the couch then yes its perception checks or get surprised unless you want to toss a fireball into the room as the door opens.
If you want to be a 100% cheddar dm and declare that because the monsters have a vague idea that the party is outside the door and that the door will get opened soon that they are aware of the party but that the party is not aware of the monsters, then the party has the option to ready actions outside the door. If you continue to cheese and not allow that outside of combat, then the fighter can simply punch rogue
If it a free ready action it is infinite initiative as they all act before the guy in the room can act.
No, because then the guy in the room can hold an action as well. Tit for tat.
If it is " I will allow them to say what they want to do and then they go at their initiative" it isn't.
But the we are back to the normal initiative rules, with possible surprise if you fail the perception roll and all.
-The perception roll to notice the orc in the brightly lit room is -20 . no one fails. The perception roll to notice the party in the hall with a torch is -20. No one fails.
As they stand you say that you always allow people to ready action and to react to the room content independently from other conditions.
FarmerBob example isn't a well lit room white box, but your reply was that you would allow ready actions and instant reactions.
Yes, it was, since he didn't say it was not a lit room and the topic of conversations was for lit rooms.
they got 20 guys together, put on armor, Gathered in a specific formation around the door, pointed their weapons into the door, had bob bash down the door.... and then go "huh" when they see the very reason they got 20 guys together, put on armor, Gathered in a specific formation around the door, pointed their weapons into the door, had bob bash down the door looking back at them?
Well, we will probably have to agree to disagree but what exactly is your definition of 'aware.'
Having knowledge [b]or cognizance [b]: aware of the difference between the two versions; became aware of faint sound.
If the orc on the far side of the door can put 2 and 2 together "i heard something. There is something in the hall. I may want to to ready for it" then the pc's can put something together "hmmm.. a room in a dungeon with a locked door, there's something on the other side, get ready!"
How would you handle the situation where one party member heard something but the rest didnt? The party elf could tell everyone that he heard scuffling on the other side of the door. The elf can convey this knowledge to the rest of the party. The entire party is now just as aware of the situation as the elf that made the check. A smart party... does absolutely nothing different than they had before they were informed. Yet somehow you would have the elf not be surprised but the rest of the party be surprised. It makes no sense.
Merriam-Webster says: having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge.
Meanwhile, the fugitive inside heard all the commotion coming from outside his door. He has a split-second to prepare because he 'knows' that something is waiting outside his door. This split-second advantage is the surprise round.
No, thats the round he has to get his gun. Once the door is open all bets are off, he doesn't automatically get to shoot first.
It all comes down to the fugitive 'knows,' while the SWAT team 'expects.'
Which is a silly distinction. This is D&D not epistemology. If you demand that combat take place in order for readied actions to take place, the wizard can grapple his familiar and then they can open the door.
1) The monsters know that the PC's are there. If the PC's hold actions. the monsters hold actions. There's no point in both sides starting with held actions, just roll initiative.2) The monsters don't know that the PC's are there. In this case the PC's all get a held action. But wait... everyone with one partial action before the monsters go. That's just a surprise round anyway. Roll initiative, party gets a surprise round.
I actually like this surprise modification quite a bit - and shall shamelessly steal it. *shameless* And re-dub it Ambush for copyright purposes. */shameless*
The reason being, the party I'm adventuring with will often ready actions vs the threats before kicking down the door, but they don't really know what's inside. This will let them take a look around and then do their action (which was going to be readied anyway) vs opponents that were unaware.
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1) The monsters know that the PC's are there. If the PC's hold actions. the monsters hold actions. There's no point in both sides starting with held actions, just roll initiative.2) The monsters don't know that the PC's are there. In this case the PC's all get a held action. But wait... everyone with one partial action before the monsters go. That's just a surprise round anyway. Roll initiative, party gets a surprise round.
The third alternative, that the monsters know that the pc's are there, so the pc's spend a moment going "Duh" while the monsters in the room get a free round of action on the PC's is absurd.
Now, keep in mind... AGAIN... THIS IS ONLY FOR THE LIT ROOM SCENARIO. The problem was the difficulty of judging surprised based on the PC's barging into a room.
Ok, so long as it is the "bright lit room" the perception can be waived as it is meaningless.
What I don't get is the need for a ready action then. Placing the group around the door ok, but the ready action?
Situation
1) normal initiative, when the player get their action they can do whatever they want. So having a ready action is a disadvantage as it limit your actions.
2) Idem, you roll initiative, the monster don't get to act, the players can do whatever they want with when it is their turn. A ready action will limit their options.
3) you are still speaking of the well lit room? It is still possible that the player have failed to detect the NPC from outside the door while the NPC have heard them. So they are opening the door to a prepared ambush. The perception roll is (almost always) automatic, but the initiative roll can make the some of PC flat footed for a time.
Like a SWAT team the PC can even have a standard "door opening" formation. It can even be useful to speed up play.
But for me that is not the equivalent of a ready action. The key to a ready action, for me, is "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
That is what I mean by infinite initiative.
Maybe the best way to see what trouble me is to think back to teh 3.e option to take 20 for the initiative.
You couldn't do that before engaging the enemy. You needed to see the situation and expend a round to evaluate the, then you would reset your rolled initiative to 20 plus bonus.
It is the same problem I have with dealing the initiative until your companion open the door (as suggested by another poster).
You could delay your initiative to arbitrary numbers, making the opponent rolls meaningless and getting a free flat footed attack.
"We wait till Bob open the door at an initiative of 400, then at 399 we act."