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So, I recently had the distinct honor of having a TPK at Varnhold when my party (a Cavalier/Bard, an Inquisitor/Cleric, a Life Mystery Oracle and a Cleric/Ranger) tried a daring raid on Varnhold Keep. Lots of bad spoilery stuff happened and the party is dead.
The Queen and sole ruler was in that party, along with the Grand Diplomat and the Royal Assassin. Irrecoverably-ish dead.
My Beloved Spouse (Kobold Chorus: "We love you!") and I have tabled discussion of resuming this game because of the emotional impact that the TPK caused. The emotional investment was just too high.
When we do, however, have that discussion, the ideas that have been posited (in descending order of preference) are:
1) The Cavalier's horse made it clear of the slaughter and returned to civilization to let people know that the party was dead. A rescue/recovery mission is put forth to recover their bodies for reincarnation (no one in the area is quite high level enough to Raise Dead or the like, but we have at least one Druid with Reincarnate. The FNG's come to the rescue, evac the bodies and we carry on.
2) We let the end be the end, retire the AP and move on to something else.
3) We fudge the TPK somehow.
What have others done in this situation?
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Well number 3 might be the easiest I mean unless the PC's where dead dead. As in to far in the negatives you can say the bad guys patched up their wounds. Took them prisoner. Then you can let them possible escape or let the bad guys ransom them back. The small nation should be willing to pay for their queen. Then assign a penalty to the kingdoms income or something to show the cost, that and the bad guys should keep any obvious magic or things of great value. This makes it bad but feasible and gets them out of a tpk.
Kingmaker is the rare game that allows for the game to continue with continuity after a TPK.
Usually, in other games, where someone sends "the rescue party", it feels very forced. However, in Kingmaker, it makes a LOT of sense, and you get to keep your Kingdom!! This fact alone makes the campaign TPK-recoverable. The Kingdom goes on, even if the rulers all get eaten by grues.
I agree, a TPK need not be the end. Loyalists NPCs could hold the kingdom together or even keep the ruler's death a secret by hiring a group of adventurers(temporary PCs, cohorts, pre-gen characters, or something similar) to seek out and recover the bodies or any surviving PCs. So you have a session with temporary characters hired to find the party, do a little fighting and recovery, and retrieve them for reincarnation.
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Kingmaker is the rare game that allows for the game to continue with continuity after a TPK.
Usually, in other games, where someone sends "the rescue party", it feels very forced. However, in Kingmaker, it makes a LOT of sense, and you get to keep your Kingdom!! This fact alone makes the campaign TPK-recoverable. The Kingdom goes on, even if the rulers all get eaten by grues.
The frustrating part of this? The King, heir to the throne etc died several sessions back.
We filed in a replacement and his wife persevered. The Wizard/Cavalier/Eldritch Knight was replaced by Tabassum Wynstann, a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. Who died on the first encounter after entering Varnhold. (At the river, if need be said)
We filed in a replacement for Tabassum after the remaining party had a Hitchcock experience and were forced to hide in a farm house overnight.
This replacement was Quirinus Banjatha, a Diviner specialist Wizard from the nearby town who... cacked it and is Completely Unable To Be Raised... (I'm sure you know what did that, wink wink nudge nudge).
We get Sasho Truegood, a Cleric/Ranger to replace Quirinus and that's when the whole party kicks it. My Beloved Spouse (Kobold Chorus: "We love you!") had entered the encounter with the promise that if we had to stop to write up a SINGLE character, she'd wipe the party in a 'rocks fall, everyone dies' sort of way. Well... here we are. *grins*
Anyway, thanks for all the feedback everyone. I think that when the pain of the loss has gone, I'll have a good idea where to want to pick up.
You should have the entire remainder of the ruling council still available. If any one has Leadership, now's the time to kit out all of those followers and land on the varlets who so callously whacked the rest of the ruling council with extreme prejudice. Grab Oleg, the exiled dude and his tardlets, even the old bitty and her scarecrow.
Failing that, rouse the rabble, arm them with lamp oil, torches and pitchforks and literally overrun the dastardly scum with beggar mobs!
Make it a mission of the people to do justice upon the bodies of the murders!
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Depending on who your high priest is, you could have a 9th level or higher cleric of whoever come to the area to help, and raise the queen... and then the rest of the party, on the condition that the kingdom make the national religion be the same as the high priests and they get to be the high priest role. This may cause problems of a holy war-ish nature if you have already appointed that role to Jhod, etc., but better that than a campaign re-boot. At least they will be around to sort out the unhappy clerics...
I did this in my own campaign. Jhod completely un-impressed the members of my 9 man group, even the bow specced fighter. The druid worships the green faith, the oracle of life favors Sarenrae, and the rest are pretty much indifferent about religion. So I introduced a higher level priestess of Sarenrae that had a dream about the ruler (queen in our game), and brought a riddle that gives very vague clues about Nyrissa in heavy code. I shouldnt make sense till around book 5 maybe. The priestess offered to provide healing services to the throne and healing services through the church if they declared Sarenrae to be the kingdoms official faith and made her the high priest(ess) role. They are still debating, since there is an inquisitor and the druid that both want the high priest role, so we will see what they decide in the end. I wanted to throw some tough decisions to the ruler and see whether she would take the best choice or stick with a PC. They get the advantage of having a higher level cleric with appropriate spells at their disposal, but the priestess is also ambitious and wants some of that power for herself.
Something similar to this might help un-dig your group out of the hole they currently find themselves in.
The frustrating part of this? The King, heir to the throne etc died several sessions back.
We filed in a replacement and his wife persevered. The Wizard/Cavalier/Eldritch Knight was replaced by Tabassum Wynstann, a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. Who died on the first encounter after entering Varnhold. (At the river, if need be said)
We filed in a replacement for Tabassum after the remaining party had a Hitchcock experience and were forced to hide in a farm house overnight.
This replacement was Quirinus Banjatha, a Diviner specialist Wizard from the nearby town who... cacked it and is Completely Unable To Be Raised... (I'm sure you know what did that, wink wink nudge nudge).
We get Sasho Truegood, a Cleric/Ranger to replace Quirinus and that's when the whole party kicks it. My Beloved Spouse (Kobold Chorus: "We love you!") had entered the encounter with the promise that if we had to stop to write up a SINGLE character, she'd wipe the party in a 'rocks fall, everyone dies' sort of way. Well... here we are. *grins*
Anyway, thanks for all the feedback everyone. I think that when the pain of the loss has gone, I'll have a good idea where to want to pick up.
Wow, that's alot of deaths, especially for a party with so many clerical type casters (even if they are multiclassed casters). While I agree with the premise that "Kingmaker is the rare game that allows for the game to continue with continuity after a TPK" it also is an AP that needs such continuity more than most, and I am concerned about the sheer number of party deaths/turnover. At some point the "who's King/Queen this week" is going to be very distracting both in and out of game. I could easily see such events causing unrest at the least and a desire by the other rulers to find a ruler who isn't going to go out and die at worst. If you don't mind me asking, why are you having such a high death rate? Depending on the answer I would be tempted to say #2(end the campaign and move on).
one nice thing about having a fairly high level NPC cleric functioning as the kingdom cleric is that she's able to cast 'raise dead'. if they get wiped out to the last in Varnhold (which we just started) then she's going to recover those bodies and make them alive again.
well...either that or necro-girl's cult will find them first and turn her into something horrific. er...more horrific. it'll be bad, ok? lets just hope the demon cult cleric chick gets to them first...and boy does it feel strange to say THAT out loud!
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If you don't mind me asking, why are you having such a high death rate? Depending on the answer I would be tempted to say #2(end the campaign and move on).
Bad dice rolls and my own (damn fool) stubborn refusal to run when the fecal matter impacts the HVAC.
The original ruler, which would be the Wiz/Cav/EK, stepped down from the throne in favor of letting his wife - the Cav/Bard - take the rule for a while. During a fairly routine outting, bad stuff happened and he went out in the most noble manner possible. He was at negative hits and could only act because he was a Half-Orc. The Dancing Queen had him grappled/pinned. He had one remaining bead of a necklace of fireballs and he detonated it at point blank range. This caused her to stop dancing, which allowed the rest of the party to finish her off.
We could have reincarnated him almost immediately, but the dice crapped out and he would have come back as a Goblin. And, well, that's not acceptable in this game. So he stayed dead. Ever since then, worst luck ever for anyone filling his 'shoes'.
heh. yeah - the dancing queen almost wiped out my group. the only one who made their save was necro-girl. she ordered her pet shadows into the fray while her and the blight druid (also female) beat down the fey vampire wannabe.
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Something similar to this might help un-dig your group out of the hole they currently find themselves in.
Agreed. The High Priest of the realm is actually the highest level cleric we've got in the game. At 9th level.
As he's an NPC, my Beloved Spouse (Kobold Chorus: "We love you!") is using some grognard joy to determine how NPC's level during the passing of time.
Jhod has been invaluable and has come to the aid with reincarnate before. (The queen also bought the farm during a raid on some leezards much earlier in the AP)
So, not really a threat of holy war, though that could be interesting from a story.
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You should have the entire remainder of the ruling council still available. If any one has Leadership, now's the time to kit out all of those followers and land on the varlets who so callously whacked the rest of the ruling council with extreme prejudice. Grab Oleg, the exiled dude and his tardlets, even the old bitty and her scarecrow.
Failing that, rouse the rabble, arm them with lamp oil, torches and pitchforks and literally overrun the dastardly scum with beggar mobs!
Make it a mission of the people to do justice upon the bodies of the murders!
Pitchforks and torches all around!
Angry mob FTW!
Bad dice rolls and my own (damn fool) stubborn refusal to run when the fecal matter impacts the HVAC.The original ruler, which would be the Wiz/Cav/EK, stepped down from the throne in favor of letting his wife - the Cav/Bard - take the rule for a while. During a fairly routine outting, bad stuff happened and he went out in the most noble manner possible. He was at negative hits and could only act because he was a Half-Orc. The Dancing Queen had him grappled/pinned. He had one remaining bead of a necklace of fireballs and he detonated it at point blank range. This caused her to stop dancing, which allowed the rest of the party to finish her off.
We could have reincarnated him almost immediately, but the dice crapped out and he would have come back as a Goblin. And, well, that's not acceptable in this game. So he stayed dead. Ever since then, worst luck ever for anyone filling his 'shoes'.
Couldn't you cast Reincarnate again?
http://www.heroesoflesserearth.com/2006/08/hole_comic_2006-08-29gif/You should always be ready to run away. When we started the 4th module (BfB) the 1st random encounter we rolled was the toughest one in the module. It's a good thing we scout with an eidolon and could run away.
Bad dice rolls and my own (damn fool) stubborn refusal to run when the fecal matter impacts the HVAC.The original ruler, which would be the Wiz/Cav/EK, stepped down from the throne in favor of letting his wife - the Cav/Bard - take the rule for a while. During a fairly routine outting, bad stuff happened and he went out in the most noble manner possible. He was at negative hits and could only act because he was a Half-Orc. The Dancing Queen had him grappled/pinned. He had one remaining bead of a necklace of fireballs and he detonated it at point blank range. This caused her to stop dancing, which allowed the rest of the party to finish her off.
We could have reincarnated him almost immediately, but the dice crapped out and he would have come back as a Goblin. And, well, that's not acceptable in this game. So he stayed dead. Ever since then, worst luck ever for anyone filling his 'shoes'.
Couldn't you cast Reincarnate again?
http://www.heroesoflesserearth.com/2006/08/hole_comic_2006-08-29gif/
Oh gods. In Serpent Skull, our cleric just kept dying (His own damn fault for putting a 10 in con when we were running 20 point buy). First we got him back up with a raise scroll. Then we had to reincarnate him as we were out in the middle of the jungle of bloody nowhere, and the GM felt less silly writing in a druid than a cleric.
THEN HE DIED AGAIN. And we managed to befriend a NEW tribe and have him come back, this time as an elf with con8. He turned into a joke by the time we disregarded the entire campaign around level 10.
A few ideas:
1) With the current power vacuum, new heroes arise from the populace - run them through other adventures before putting them back on the Kingmaker AP track.
2) Closest relative of the ruler shows up to claim the throne with some of his buddies (new party).
3) Adventurers in the neighborhood (new party) take advantage of the power vacuum to launch a coup and seize the throne.
4) A neighboring nation sends some agents to grab the throne - they may or may not stay loyal to their patron after tking it.
5) Divine intervention - a wandering high level cleric raises the entire party, but has a price.
6) Deal with the devil - characters offered return to life for converting to the dark side.
7) The Swordlords try again, with another group.
8) Various NPCs from the earlier part of the story turn heroic and quest after the PCs bodies, vowing to return them to life.
9) It was all a dream - Dallas style.
10) The gods offer them a chance to relive the last fight to correct their mistakes.
9) It was all a dream - Dallas style.
A Dallas reference, FTW. Very funny. Is Dallas really that well known, or is Brian showing his age?
Mikhaila Burnett, I for one would be interested to know how it turns out, when you have your discussion. You get so many stories/questions about games, but rarely get to know the outcome.
9) It was all a dream - Dallas style.
A Dallas reference, FTW. Very funny. Is Dallas really that well known, or is Brian showing his age?
My age has been showing for years. No use trying to hide it. If I recall correctly (and my memory hasn't given out yet, unlike my eyes and my knees), that infamous season of Dallas occurred when I was a teenager. I wasn't a fan, but it was a major cultural event back then.
March 21, 1980
I was married with a six year old and a 3 year old... *sigh*
-- david
Papa.DRB
My age has been showing for years. No use trying to hide it. If I recall correctly (and my memory hasn't given out yet, unlike my eyes and my knees), that infamous season of Dallas occurred when I was a teenager. I wasn't a fan, but it was a major cultural event back then.
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March 21, 1980
I was married with a six year old and a 3 year old... *sigh*
-- david
Papa.DRBMy age has been showing for years. No use trying to hide it. If I recall correctly (and my memory hasn't given out yet, unlike my eyes and my knees), that infamous season of Dallas occurred when I was a teenager. I wasn't a fan, but it was a major cultural event back then.
Man you guys are... old... just saying. :)
When I was born, the Boston Bruins had just won the Stanley Cup.
I remember it like it was yesterday. #:-]
Man you guys are... old... just saying. :)March 21, 1980
I was married with a six year old and a 3 year old... *sigh*
-- david
Papa.DRBMy age has been showing for years. No use trying to hide it. If I recall correctly (and my memory hasn't given out yet, unlike my eyes and my knees), that infamous season of Dallas occurred when I was a teenager. I wasn't a fan, but it was a major cultural event back then.
Considering the alternative (dead), I'll take old, thank you !! ( lol )
-- david
Papa.DRB
When I was born, the Boston Bruins had just won the Stanley Cup.
I remember it like it was yesterday. #:-]
1970, #4 (Bobby Orr) scored the 4th goal (winning) in the 4th period (OT) at about 4 minutes to win the cup... Remember watching it on TV since Garden tickets were impossible to get.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Man you guys are... old... just saying. :)March 21, 1980
I was married with a six year old and a 3 year old... *sigh*
-- david
Papa.DRBMy age has been showing for years. No use trying to hide it. If I recall correctly (and my memory hasn't given out yet, unlike my eyes and my knees), that infamous season of Dallas occurred when I was a teenager. I wasn't a fan, but it was a major cultural event back then.Considering the alternative (dead), I'll take old, thank you !! ( lol )
-- david
Papa.DRB
Amen, brother! And it's good to see I'm not the oldest fart on thes boards.
When I was born, the Boston Bruins had just won the Stanley Cup.
I remember it like it was yesterday. #:-]
When I was born, Boston was a British port in the Colonies.
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We could have reincarnated him almost immediately, but the dice crapped out and he would have come back as a Goblin. And, well, that's not acceptable in this game. So he stayed dead. Ever since then, worst luck ever for anyone filling his 'shoes'.
Just saw this thread, but if you are planning to continue, I might try to make the death/poor luck of the rulers into an aspect of the campaign, thus giving an in-game explanation for some of the turnover. The position has somehow been cursed, clearly, so the PCs should probably find out why and get the resolved immediately...
(I'm thinking something along the lines of "Curse of Chalion" by Lois McMaster Bujold, though I'm sure there are plenty of other versions/options you could use.)
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We could have reincarnated him almost immediately, but the dice crapped out and he would have come back as a Goblin. And, well, that's not acceptable in this game. So he stayed dead. Ever since then, worst luck ever for anyone filling his 'shoes'.Just saw this thread, but if you are planning to continue, I might try to make the death/poor luck of the rulers into an aspect of the campaign, thus giving an in-game explanation for some of the turnover. The position has somehow been cursed, clearly, so the PCs should probably find out why and get the resolved immediately...
(I'm thinking something along the lines of "Curse of Chalion" by Lois McMaster Bujold, though I'm sure there are plenty of other versions/options you could use.)
Huh. Y'know, that's actually got some significant merit.
As for everything upthread, sorry I fell off the planet for a while.
To update, we've put the Kingmaker game into hibernation due to frayed nerves and a desire to gain some emotional distance before jumping back in with whatever solution avails itself.
Will definitely update this thread when we resume and decide on a course of action.
...I might try to make the death/poor luck of the rulers into an aspect of the campaign, thus giving an in-game explanation for some of the turnover. The position has somehow been cursed, clearly, so the PCs should probably find out why and get the resolved immediately...
Wow, +1! This is a great idea! It could go so many ways, from intrigue to horror.
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You should always be ready to run away. When we started the 4th module (BfB) the 1st random encounter we rolled was the toughest one in the module. It's a good thing we scout with an eidolon and could run away.
I here you. We were 1st level in the forest exploring and ran into a shambling mound. Fortunately, we all had horses and were smart enough to realize we were totally out classed. As a gamer, I understand hating to run from a fight, but I understand a hatred of TPKs more.
Were it my group, I'd give my players a few lower level characters, and let the players run their own rescue (or remains recovery anyway)