Alternate Grapple Rules


Homebrew and House Rules


Alternate grapple rules for your derision:

Alternate Grapple:

Grapple

Only Humanoid creatures can grapple or be grappled, all other creatures simply attack to the best of their ability as circumstances dictate and their non-Humanoid anatomy makes it impractical or impossible to effectively grapple them. Grappling can be effective against mundane Humanoids but can be deadly against magical or extraordinary ones.

As a full round action, a Humanoid creature can attempt to grapple a single foe. If the creature initiating the grapple does not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, initiating a grapple provokes an attack of opportunity from the target. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both gain the grappled condition (see below). Since grappling is an intimate form of combat creatures must be adjacent to each other before the initial combat maneuver roll is made, creatures cannot grapple at a distance even with reach.

Moving while grappling: Grappling creatures cannot move under their own power by mundane means (see below for Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities). Grappling creatures may be moved by other creatures or effects provided the total weight of both grappling creatures meets any carrying or weight requirements necessary.

Tie Up: During a grapple a creature cannot be tied up unless it has already submitted. Tying up a creature should take place outside of combat.

Damage while grappling: As a full round action during a grapple a creature can choose to inflict damage to their target with a successful combat maneuver check. This damage is equal to their unarmed strike as non lethal damage. A natural attack or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon can be either lethal or nonlethal. If a creature has a high enough base attack bonus to incur iterative attacks it can apply a +1 damage bonus for each iterative attack it has to the damage dealt this round. So a creature with a base attack of: (+11/+6/+1) would do an additional 2 points of damage to its target with a successful combat maneuver check. Iterative attacks do not allow additional combat maneuver checks during a grapple.

Escape a grapple: As a full round action a creature can choose to escape a grapple with an Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to the opponent's CMD) or a combat maneuver check. If a creature has a high enough base attack bonus to incur iterative attacks it can apply a +1 bonus for each iterative attack it has to this check. So a creature with a base attack of: (+11/+6/+1) would gain a +2 bonus. Iterative attacks do not allow additional combat maneuver checks to escape a grapple.

Escape a pin: As a full round action a creature can choose to escape a pin with an Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to the opponent's CMD) or a combat maneuver check. If a creature has a high enough base attack bonus to incur iterative attacks it can apply a +1 bonus for each iterative attack it has to this check. So a creature with a base attack of: (+11/+6/+1) would gain a +2 bonus. Iterative attacks do not allow additional combat maneuver checks to escape a pin. If the Escape Artist check (only) used to escape the pin exceeds the DC by 10 or more the creature can choose to escape the grapple immediately as well, otherwise the creature remains grappled.

Pin an opponent in a grapple: As a full round action during a grapple a creature can give its opponent the pinned condition (see below) with a successful combat maneuver roll. A pinning creature is not considered pinned. Iterative attacks do not allow additional pin attempts during a grapple.

Submit in a grapple: As a free action a creature can submit during a grapple. Once a creature submits it forfeits any other actions that round except potentially movement (see below). If both creatures submit on their respective turns the grapple ends. If a creatures submission ends the grapple that creature may act normally after the submission.

Conditions

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. A grappled creature retains full use of its Extraordinary Abilities (Ex) and Supernatural Abilities (Su). Grappled creatures cannot move (except as noted above) and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Pinned: A pinned creature retains full use of its Extraordinary Abilities (Ex) and Supernatural Abilities (Su). A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed (except as noted above). A pinned creature also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned creature who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.


So, uh, what does a squid do? Tentacles seem to be quite adept at grappling. I guess you're looking at grappling as a Judo style?


Also, no tying while in combat?

I can see having that be an action that provokes attacks of opportunities to anyone threatening the grappler, but totally disallowing it seems like a bit much.

Also, what is the goal behind moving most grapple actions to full-round actions?


Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:
So, uh, what does a squid do? Tentacles seem to be quite adept at grappling. I guess you're looking at grappling as a Judo style?

A squid just attacks with its tentacles.

Its an animal and not interested using arm bars or wrist locks or whatever. It just hits and crushes things with its tentacles and bites.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:

Also, no tying while in combat?

I can see having that be an action that provokes attacks of opportunities to anyone threatening the grappler, but totally disallowing it seems like a bit much.

Also, what is the goal behind moving most grapple actions to full-round actions?

Nope, no tying up in combat. You can do that after you win the combat if you choose. Why cllutter grappling up with non combat activities? Tying someone up happens at the end of the grapple.

Using full round actions shows the singular and intense focus of a one on one grapple. Mechanically, it eliminates the need to adjudicate multiple actions during the grapple which typically just slow things down with confusing corner cases and really don't help much in a grapple compared with the trouble they cause at the table.

If you are grappling it takes just as much focus as standing there swinging a sword in a full attack.


I think you're thinking too much into the word grappling. Whereas teh rules as written is more general. But, hey good luck with that, I say no thanks, there's other places that need massaging to me.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

cibet44 wrote:


A squid just attacks with its tentacles.

Its an animal and not interested using arm bars or wrist locks or whatever. It just hits and crushes things with its tentacles and bites.

I'm afraid that real squids do in fact constrict their prey; while realism is rarely the ultimate goal of RPG rules, I don't see why the sudden shift toward the absurd?


Flak wrote:
cibet44 wrote:


A squid just attacks with its tentacles.

Its an animal and not interested using arm bars or wrist locks or whatever. It just hits and crushes things with its tentacles and bites.

I'm afraid that real squids do in fact constrict their prey; while realism is rarely the ultimate goal of RPG rules, I don't see why the sudden shift toward the absurd?

Well I wouldn't call it absurd, but the answer is to simplify grapple and make it something useful in certain situations but not something every creature in every book could do at any moment. Combat in D&D/PF is an an abstract process until you try to use grapple in combat then it switches to simulation. That's why grapple is such a PITA and why now three rule sets have not made it any better. It does not fit.

As far as squids go technically all they do is constrict (they only bite dead things to eat them) so if you wanted to be accurate the only attack a squid would have would be to constrict, they never just "hit" something with a tentacle. So that's my point, a creatures "attack" is what is. Squids use their tentacles to attack and do damage with them if you want to interpret that as "hitting" or "constricting" that's up to you. It's abstract combat. When we put grappling in the mix it becomes simulated and the two don't mix.

What I am doing here is saying that only humanoids truly grapple, everything else just attacks so why bog the game and combats down by giving creatures attack options they would not ever do. When a bear attacks do you think it decides if it will put you in a headlock or do you it just claws and bites to the best of it's ability? I say anything but humanoids just attacks and its attack stats reflect this, go ahead and interpret this with whatever flavor (hitting, constricting, slashing) you want. Humanoids have an additional but limited form of wrestling called "grapple" that they may use in certain circumstances.


Cats grapple. They hold you with the front claws, fall over, and kick with their back legs.

My main gripes though are the limitations. In real life, I can grapple people shorter than me by grabbing their arms. I can jerk them around, kick them, and every time they try to hit back I counter with a yank. Reach matters.

Secondly, I can inflict lethal damage and lots of it grappling. when I free spar mma people I show where I could rip off their ears, get away by biting (by putting my teeth on them) or plucking out an eye (by grinding my thumb into their cheek). worse if I had a knife, because if I had a hand free, I could stab deep more than 12 times in 6 seconds and kill them. Really, grappling in a lethal fight is really stupid, and leads to worse injuries, not less.

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