Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
What is the opinion on Amiri's "Hide Armor"?
Actually, IMHO, a Chain Shirt should work very well to model a "Chain Mail Bikini"
The old TSR module Red Sonja Unconquered gives our heroine the following stats:
Fighter 11
Str 14
Int 17
Wis 10
Dex 17
Con 11
Cha 18
HP: 75Sonja is surprised only on a 1 in 1d6.
Equipment: broadsword, dagger, leather armor.The leather armor is surprising. All of the art depicts her in a chainmail bikini. ;)
Woah, those stats are weird. 17 intelligence? This would be higher than the majority of sages and wizards, the province of the truly gifted savants, among the greatest minds in the world. 18 charisma is also quite a bit - I've seen the movie and I think I read one of the books, and she didn't seem to have nearly as much personal magnetism as that. 18 charisma is, as I see it, the level at which nobles and warlords instinctively defer to what you say, and your one word can cause a rioting square to fall silent (especially in older editions where iirc stats were capped at 25). I think they might have been aiming to make use of some old mechanics, but they just don't seem to make any sense.
On the other hand, someone who doesn't seem to be bothered by walking near-naked in shows and dust imo deserves a good deal more than 11 constitution :) . Same for Amiri, really - you'd think she'd at least wear a shirt, some of those places they adventure can be quite cold . Or maybe she's just one of these APG Savage Barbarians, and what she wears is just a fashion statement ;) ?
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Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
What is the opinion on Amiri's "Hide Armor"?
Actually, IMHO, a Chain Shirt should work very well to model a "Chain Mail Bikini"
According to recent news, Arnold was for her not wearing clothes of any kind.
According to recent news, Arnold was for her not wearing clothes of any kind.Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
What is the opinion on Amiri's "Hide Armor"?
Actually, IMHO, a Chain Shirt should work very well to model a "Chain Mail Bikini"
If you are gonna drop bits like that, you should provide links. ;P
I collect Red Sonja and Shi comics--mostly to annoy my wife with my juvenile & prurient fantasies about hot chicks with swords--which doesn't work (she claims...)
Given that she seems motivated to create a "Red Sonja" knock-off she might find them inspiring. :)
You know, if that is true, you might be in real trouble if she discovers Paizo and makes her own screen name.
My only advice is please read the Robert E Howard story "The Shadow of the Vulture". Red Sonya of Rogatino is a far better than the 2 dimentional cardboard cut out that the Red Sonja character that was based on her.
If you do want to base the character off the real Red Sonya then I would make her a Gunslinger.
After you read The Shadow of the Vulture... read his Dark Agnes de Chastillon stories which I usually bring up as a counter to Howard being a misogynist.
Dark Agnes de Chastillon stories
"Sword Woman"
"Blades for France"
"Mistress of Death"
My only advice is please read the Robert E Howard story "The Shadow of the Vulture". Red Sonya of Rogatino is a far better than the 2 dimentional cardboard cut out that the Red Sonja character that was based on her.
If you do want to base the character off the real Red Sonya then I would make her a Gunslinger.
After you read The Shadow of the Vulture... read his Dark Agnes de Chastillon stories which I usually bring up as a counter to Howard being a misogynist.
Dark Agnes de Chastillon stories
"Sword Woman"
"Blades for France"
"Mistress of Death"
Counterwise, if she does want a character that is closer to the Marvel Comic icon (only 10x better), have her read The Robert E. Howard story "Queen of the Black Coast" (which I mentioned earlier).
TSR once put out a Red Sonja module that's worth hunting down. One thing to note is that trying to stay close to either comic or novel form is going to be problematic given that your average pathfinder world is far more magic heavy than the world of Hykrannia.
This is true. (That is generally true of almost all fiction not based on D&D/Pathfinder.)
It is often better to use a character as an "inspiration" rather then directly recreating. :)
I wouldn't have a problem if you dressed her up as a geisha. It's your game, not ours.Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
Actually, it's someone else's, I was just offering my own suggestion.
Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
I do. If a character is going to wear armor, it has to be armor. A bikini is not armor. (Well, I suppose it might give a +1 AC bonus, if it is made of hard metal.)
On the other hand, bracers of armor can be better than armor, since they do not encumber the character. I certainly would allow a PC to have the magic item made into the form of a bikini if the player wanted it. But for this thread, I've restricted myself to official Paizo stuff, and I have never seen Paizo stats for a bikini of armor.
Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
What is the opinion on Amiri's "Hide Armor"?
Actually, IMHO, a Chain Shirt should work very well to model a "Chain Mail Bikini"
Well, Amri's armor covers her legs and arms very well, so I would probably consider it as a specially made light armor providing a +2 armor bonus.
When I was planning a "Sereph" campaign, I was considering a guild of armor makers who made special armor like that -- but such armor always sacrificed Armor bonus for some other benefit, such as a reduced armor penalty.
I've also mentioned "stotting" in another thread, where someone leaves a large gap in his armor to say "Hey, you can't hit me even though I have a huge gap in my armor!" I've even thought of a special "stotting" feat, but that would be non-official Paizo.
As for feat-heaviness, if you are making these as 11th level characters, they will probably excel at 'basic butt-kicking' no matter what they do.
Heck, my 11th level sorceress/bard/druid is currently in a bar talking to one of the local thugs, and she could probably beat his ass in a fair fight, given that with her insanely spread-out multiclassing, she still has a +7 BAB and +2 Dex and Str bonuses. An 11th level Fighter OR Barbarian with high Strength and/or Dexterity would probably be able to mop the floor with the run-of-the mill riff-raff.
Just be sure that there are some things she excels in. Although Red Sonja did seem to be a bit of a generalist type character, ready for anything, you probably don't want to specialize too far.
She was supposed to be the best swords-fighter, so she probably should have the feats to maximize her proficiencies with her sword. I'm not sure what she could do archery-wise, but you might give her Far Shot for the credibility factor.
Another thing about 11th level fighting types is that some things are not as important to them as to other types of characters. For example: Improved Unarmed Attack. For a low-level rogue, this could be important if you are unarmed and you want to take somebody's sword. But if you are an 11th level Barbarian, you can just eat any attacks of opportunity you get while taking a miscreant's sword away from him.
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Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
Red Sonja's iconic chainmail bikini (which is not actually made of chainmail, it's made of metal scales) is not intended to be armor. In the canon its a slave girl's outfit, and thus entirely ornamental. If you're going to count it as armor then you'd have to count Leia's slave girl outfit in Return of the Jedi as armor. Which would be silly.
Also, counting it as armor is only adding fuel to the Anti-Chainmail Bikini League's fire. And those people annoy me.
What is the opinion on Amiri's "Hide Armor"?
Amri's hide armor heavily protects her arms and legs, so heavily that she can use them to block blows and protect her torso, while the lack of torso armor leaves her with a lot of mobility - I imagine her using an incredibly acrobatic fighting style that involves a lot of tumbling combined with arm and leg blocks.
Plus she can practically hide behind that sword she carries. It's like a steel wall!
Red Sonja has always been described as stronger then most men, part of her divine oath to her goddess. Said Oath also says no sexual relations with a man who does not beat her in battle.
That oath has always bothered me. Makes no sense. She can't ever have sex with a man ... unless he beats her up and takes it? That's not a very good oath. And technically, it had already happened at least once in her back story. So, what, the goddess had already made that deal with her, she just hadn't told her about it yet? And the implication that I've already seen written into it is that the one who beats her will win her affections. Does this seem to be setting a good example? I don't think you want to play that aspect of Red Sonja. Come up with a better oath.
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Red Sonja has always been described as stronger then most men, part of her divine oath to her goddess. Said Oath also says no sexual relations with a man who does not beat her in battle.That oath has always bothered me. Makes no sense. She can't ever have sex with a man ... unless he beats her up and takes it? That's not a very good oath. And technically, it had already happened at least once in her back story. So, what, the goddess had already made that deal with her, she just hadn't told her about it yet? And the implication that I've already seen written into it is that the one who beats her will win her affections. Does this seem to be setting a good example? I don't think you want to play that aspect of Red Sonja. Come up with a better oath.
You have to understand that the oath originates in a comic book that was read by an audience as young as eleven. The barbarian fantasy comics (Conan, King Conan, Killraven, etc.) already pushed the edge of what you could do under the Comic Code Authority, and they had to be circumspect.
The actual oath is "You may never lie with any man.*"
*There is an exception for cases of rape.
Because that's what Sonja's oath means. She loses her power if she ever sleeps with a man. She does not lose her power if a man overpowers and rapes her. That is not suitable subject matter for minors. Make sense now?
Sadly, as you've noted, some Sonja writers -- such as the movie's screenwriters -- didn't really grasp the implications of Sonja's oath, and occassionally she gets written like she's standing around thinking "Gee, that fella sure is swell. I ever so hope he rapes me."
But hey, once a Spider-Man writer had Peter Parker punch Mary Jane in the face and knock her across a room. Sometimes comic book writers are real morons. You just have to pretend the bad stories don't exist.
Red Sonja has always been described as stronger then most men, part of her divine oath to her goddess. Said Oath also says no sexual relations with a man who does not beat her in battle.That oath has always bothered me. Makes no sense. She can't ever have sex with a man ... unless he beats her up and takes it? That's not a very good oath. And technically, it had already happened at least once in her back story. So, what, the goddess had already made that deal with her, she just hadn't told her about it yet? And the implication that I've already seen written into it is that the one who beats her will win her affections. Does this seem to be setting a good example? I don't think you want to play that aspect of Red Sonja. Come up with a better oath.
You are not the only one to be bothered by her oath.
The reason for the oath is so she could have "strength and skill at arms" without having been directly taught them.
Why have an oath at all?
What is wrong with her gaining her abilities through physical and weapons training?
But hey, once a Spider-Man writer had Peter Parker punch Mary Jane in the face and knock her across a room. Sometimes comic book writers are real morons. You just have to pretend the bad stories don't exist.
There have been times that I think that being a "moron" is a job requirement to work in comics. :(
Red Sonja has always been described as stronger then most men, part of her divine oath to her goddess. Said Oath also says no sexual relations with a man who does not beat her in battle.That oath has always bothered me. Makes no sense. She can't ever have sex with a man ... unless he beats her up and takes it? That's not a very good oath. And technically, it had already happened at least once in her back story. So, what, the goddess had already made that deal with her, she just hadn't told her about it yet? And the implication that I've already seen written into it is that the one who beats her will win her affections. Does this seem to be setting a good example? I don't think you want to play that aspect of Red Sonja. Come up with a better oath.
The ways of the gods are not the ways of men. The minds of men can not scrutinize the gods unscrutinazible minds, nor can the ef their ineffable plans.
Or at least that's the justification the theologians usually bring out to justify the unjustifiable. Not that I approve, of course, but since this is a classic tale (more or less) it can be put in the same category as a lot of the Biblical stuff like Abraham being commanded to sacrifice Isaac.
++++++
(additional thought)
In a couple stories I wrote, I mutated this meme though. In one story, the female warrior said that she took an oath to only sleep with a man who speaks in complete sentences. In another one, a different warrior took an oath to only sleep with a man who was an accountant.
+++++++
(another thought)
In preparing for a Ravenloft campaign, I came to the realization that the gods' view of things may very well not be the same as their worshipers' view of things. Something that is just terrible to the people involved, such as a pogrom against the Jews for example, may lead one of those Jews involved to leave her village, and journey across the ocean, and be in exactly the right place to alter the course of history for the better.
On the other hand, someone could say "does it HAVE to be like that?"
The novel Orion and the Conqueror is a well-written novel in which Orion chafes at the way the gods manipulate mortals lives, even going so far as to get King Phillip assassinated so that his son can create the empire they want created.
++++++++
(One more thought)
Thinking about this from an anthropological point of view, it is possible that an ancient culture may have combined the concept of women warriors with the needs that women have to care for and nurture their children, by separating out the women warriors from the mothers. They might have a rule that once a woman gets pregnant, her warrior career is over so that her baby may be protected and nurtured.
Eventually this rule gets mutated into Red Sonja's oath that a warrior woman can only have sex with a man who can overpower her in battle (which makes sure that the offspring have healthy, capable fathers) and then she gives up the warrior life so she can nurture her child.
Of course, Red Sonja's oath does not actually have that second part, which might have gotten lost by the time RS came around, allowing her to continue her warrior career even after having sex.
Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?Red Sonja's iconic chainmail bikini (which is not actually made of chainmail, it's made of metal scales) is not intended to be armor. In the canon its a slave girl's outfit, and thus entirely ornamental. If you're going to count it as armor then you'd have to count Leia's slave girl outfit in Return of the Jedi as armor. Which would be silly.
Also, counting it as armor is only adding fuel to the Anti-Chainmail Bikini League's fire. And those people annoy me.
You don't actually. You can allow the chainmail bikini and disallow Leia's bra and skirt. Or allow both, or disallow both, or whatever. I don't really care what other people's games allow, if the OP can't allow it in his, that's too bad.
Hopefully PF 2e (in the far far future) includes a level based defense bonus. That's the issue with all of the lightly armored types in PF vs in popular fantasy. Skill at arms translated to defense and offense in the stories, but only cold hard steel and magic offer a good defense in the game.
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You know, rather than listing all the abilities she ever had during her career as a character in the novels, it might be better to make a character (barbarian, ranger, rogue, fighter, or other martial-type) based on her personality first, and then tailor her abilities to the system at hand.
Because you need a lot of feats to get where Red Sonja is right now.
You know, rather than listing all the abilities she ever had during her career as a character in the novels, it might be better to make a character (barbarian, ranger, rogue, fighter, or other martial-type) based on her personality first, and then tailor her abilities to the system at hand.
Because you need a lot of feats to get where Red Sonja is right now.
that's probably good advice, since Red Sonja is probably an epic level character around 27th level or so. There is no way an 11th level character can match that.
You know, rather than listing all the abilities she ever had during her career as a character in the novels, it might be better to make a character (barbarian, ranger, rogue, fighter, or other martial-type) based on her personality first, and then tailor her abilities to the system at hand.
Because you need a lot of feats to get where Red Sonja is right now.
Not only that, if you are using PathinderRPG rules you are very likely to have FAR more magic available to the heroes then Red Sonja every had to deal with.
that's probably good advice, since Red Sonja is probably an epic level character around 27th level or so. There is no way an 11th level character can match that.You know, rather than listing all the abilities she ever had during her career as a character in the novels, it might be better to make a character (barbarian, ranger, rogue, fighter, or other martial-type) based on her personality first, and then tailor her abilities to the system at hand.
Because you need a lot of feats to get where Red Sonja is right now.
Power level inflation. And from one who doesn't allow chainmail to function as a bikini.
Could you point out perhaps one instance of her doing something that would require a 27th level rather than 11th?
I would say (setting aside the oath for a moment), based on the way she was described, she's a barbarian. She's tough, powerful, and skill-tastic (climb, acrobatics, stealth -- all of which are class for barbarians).
If you set aside the idea of rage as a mindless anger and instead make it a battle-trance or single focus on combat, then it somewhat suits her mentality as well -- and helps give her that edge that she wouldn't be beaten in combat.
Now, when we add in the oath aspect - that definitely seems to have a divine component - and part of me wants to say Oracle of Battle (it would let her do a lot of the cool things she's supposed to be able to do) -- but she doesn't have anything like the Oracle's curse (I suppose, however, the oath as spoken *could* be the "least restrictive" [eg - high level] version of her curse..) and she's never been show to have any ability casting spells... But then again, who knows, maybe she does have magic and is using all her slots to keep up a Magic Vestments on her bikini? :)
Of course, it could be that the oath to a goddess is somewhat more totemic in nature, which also lends itself to Barbarianism.
reading through the thread, as I know very little about red Sonja, but wouldn't a weapon adept monk work? I mean only for the stats, and you just reflavor it.
It gives you:
decent unarmed attacks
great with weapons
don't need armor
Gives you the stealth you want
unfortunately CHA is a dump stat. But all comic book heros are basically 50+ point buy.....
Or you could try the savage barbarian (gives bonuses for no armor, but is a weak archetype) or invulnerable rager (the high DR can help with the lack of armor).
I guess you do you best to represent Red but you can't expect to be her equal (at least at low level).
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Red Sonja's iconic chainmail bikini (which is not actually made of chainmail, it's made of metal scales) is not intended to be armor. In the canon its a slave girl's outfit, and thus entirely ornamental. If you're going to count it as armor then you'd have to count Leia's slave girl outfit in Return of the Jedi as armor. Which would be silly.
It'd be silly 'cos armour sucks in d20 Star Wars... but it's pretty important in Pathfinder... ;)
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You don't actually. You can allow the chainmail bikini and disallow Leia's bra and skirt. Or allow both, or disallow both, or whatever.
::eyeroll::
Yes, you're right. You can allow one and disallow the other.
You just can't do that and then pretend you're being a reasonable GM, because you're clearly being arbitrary and capricious. I didn't think I needed to say that, but behold the power of the internet...
Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
What is the opinion on Amiri's "Hide Armor"?
Actually, IMHO, a Chain Shirt should work very well to model a "Chain Mail Bikini"
I'd allow it!
You don't actually. You can allow the chainmail bikini and disallow Leia's bra and skirt. Or allow both, or disallow both, or whatever.::eyeroll::
Yes, you're right. You can allow one and disallow the other.
You just can't do that and then pretend you're being a reasonable GM, because you're clearly being arbitrary and capricious. I didn't think I needed to say that, but behold the power of the internet...
So much for being annoyed by the "Anti-Chainmail Bikini League."
I'd allow it!Does anyone really have a problem with her wearing a chain mail bikini and treating it as a chain shirt or chain mail?
If not, I'd run her as a fighter 11, or maybe fighter 9/ranger 2
What is the opinion on Amiri's "Hide Armor"?
Actually, IMHO, a Chain Shirt should work very well to model a "Chain Mail Bikini"
However, the conceit of this thread is that UGM's wife wishes to create a character based on Marvel/Dynamite's Red Sonja character. I think we all aready know what Red Sonja looks like. ;)
However, following off the link you provided, we see that Red Sonja has "Berseker Strength" according to her Character Bio.
This seems reasonable, so I would suggest going with a Barbarian for her class.
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Some of you are obviously unaware of the mathmatical theory behind the chainmail bikini theory of armor. Please also note that although the term "chainmail bikini" is used throughout this post, this can apply to many different types of armor. The minimal breastplate [literally, in that it (barely) covers just the breasts], the thin leather strip worn as a top...all of these can be considered "armor".
The chainmail bikini theory of armor states that for armor that emphasizes sex appeal over actual protection, distraction/envy is as much of a factor in the increased protection as the normal deflection of regular armor. The typical horny barbarian, when confronted with a good looking woman wearing a chainmail bikini, is distracted by his own lusty thoughts to the point where his attacks are less effective than usual. For those who prefer the opposite sex from the person wearing the chainmail bikini, feelings of envy and jealousy elicit much the same result.
Mechanics: Chainmail bikinis (and similar "armors") provide the same AC as the regular armor upon which they are based, minus 2 for the reduced coverage. However, they also gain a few benefits: the maximum dexterity bonus increases by 1, the armor check penalty is reduced by 1, and the arcane spell failure chance is decreased by 10%. In addition, the wearer can add a distraction bonus to their AC equal to their Charisma bonus. In the case of a Charisma penalty, this becomes a revulsion penalty (making them easier to hit).
Magical chainmail bikinis can be even more impressive, as they often not only add a enhancement bonus, but also extend the magical protection over the exposed areas, to eliminate the -2 penalty to AC suffered by mundane bikini armors.
Some of you are obviously unaware of the mathmatical theory behind the chainmail bikini theory of armor. Please also note that although the term "chainmail bikini" is used throughout this post, this can apply to many different types of armor. The minimal breastplate [literally, in that it (barely) covers just the breasts], the thin leather strip worn as a top...all of these can be considered "armor".
The chainmail bikini theory of armor states that for armor that emphasizes sex appeal over actual protection, distraction/envy is as much of a factor in the increased protection as the normal deflection of regular armor. The typical horny barbarian, when confronted with a good looking woman wearing a chainmail bikini, is distracted by his own lusty thoughts to the point where his attacks are less effective than usual. For those who prefer the opposite sex from the person wearing the chainmail bikini, feelings of envy and jealousy elicit much the same result.
Mechanics: Chainmail bikinis (and similar "armors") provide the same AC as the regular armor upon which they are based, minus 2 for the reduced coverage. However, they also gain a few benefits: the maximum dexterity bonus increases by 1, the armor check penalty is reduced by 1, and the arcane spell failure chance is decreased by 10%. In addition, the wearer can add a distraction bonus to their AC equal to their Charisma bonus. In the case of a Charisma penalty, this becomes a revulsion penalty (making them easier to hit).
Magical chainmail bikinis can be even more impressive, as they often not only add a enhancement bonus, but also extend the magical protection over the exposed areas, to eliminate the -2 penalty to AC suffered by mundane bikini armors.
And this rule comes from Where?
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that's probably good advice, since Red Sonja is probably an epic level character around 27th level or so. There is no way an 11th level character can match that.You know, rather than listing all the abilities she ever had during her career as a character in the novels, it might be better to make a character (barbarian, ranger, rogue, fighter, or other martial-type) based on her personality first, and then tailor her abilities to the system at hand.
Because you need a lot of feats to get where Red Sonja is right now.
When the module was published, there were no feats, so she didn't have to be an obscene level to actually do things.
In some ways, 3.X actually weakened character, since there are now rules for when you can attempt almost anything. Whereas with previous editions, you just attempted it, be you 1st level or 30th.
Power level inflation. And from one who doesn't allow chainmail to function as a bikini.
Could you point out perhaps one instance of her doing something that would require a 27th level rather than 11th?
If she's one of the best swords-women in the world, if not the best, then she has to be at or near the top of the level tree, pretty much by definition. If your game allows epic levels then she's epic. If it stops at 20 then she's near 20. If it stops at 12 (and there's no-one above 12) then she can be 11. Otherwise any 12th level Tom, Dick or Harry could top her in a fight and her reputation is meaningless.
Granted, if women are considered inferior to men and an 11th level female fighter is as good as the world has ever known, whilst 20th level male fighters strut their stuff then you might argue she's 11th.
It could also be argued that she's a super-twinked 11th level character with plot-protection and DM fudge-factor on her side, in which case she can beat anyone regardless of level, but I hate plot protection so I prefer to think of her as top level instead.
If we're just building an unarmoured fighter/barbarian type who can still contribute and not be the achilles heel of a party then it's whatever level the OP is playing at. I'm trying to build one of those myself, with no particular reference to Red Sonja, and it's not that easy (starting at 2nd in PFS via GM credit). The savage barbarian archetype is really weak at low levels.
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When the module was published, there were no feats, so she didn't have to be an obscene level to actually do things.
In some ways, 3.X actually weakened character, since there are now rules for when you can attempt almost anything. Whereas with previous editions, you just attempted it, be you 1st level or 30th.
Yup! Of course, it strengthened the characters of players who weren't creative enough to think of any of this stuff on their own.
If she's one of the best swords-women in the world, if not the best, then she has to be at or near the top of the level tree, pretty much by definition. If your game allows epic levels then she's epic. If it stops at 20 then she's near 20. If it stops at 12 (and there's no-one above 12) then she can be 11. Otherwise any 12th level Tom, Dick or Harry could top her in a fight and her reputation is meaningless.Power level inflation. And from one who doesn't allow chainmail to function as a bikini.
Could you point out perhaps one instance of her doing something that would require a 27th level rather than 11th?
Depends on what you mean by "one of the best". If you assume a logarithmic scale of experience (which is the usual assumption), then most of the world is levels 1-3, with the people really good at their jobs levels 4-5 -- and in NPC classes at that.
So, yes, odds are that a higher level martial character could take her -- but then, how many of those are there? (Because of all the people higher level than she is, some of them will be casters, partial casters, etc.)
So, yes, in that kind of world, a Level 11 barbarian would certainly be one of the best combatants and a legendary hero.
Sure, she might be easily defeated compared to other, better, legendary heroes (though 1 level difference would really depend on the feats, rage powers, etc, chosen) -- but to a common person, her ability is so far beyond what they could achieve that she appears to be some sort of Goddess of Battle.
I mean, assuming average hp of 6.5 per die, a 16 [non-rage] con (and no Toughness or Fav. Class hp), she's got 110 hp, which goes up to 143 when she's raging, which means she can literally take more than 20 times the punishment of a level 1 commoner with a max HD and no con bonus. Odds are, by level 11, you've probably got a belt or something to boost that further, so let's say +4 con, which adds 22 hp to each of those totals -- which means she can take more than 25 times the punishment of a L1 commoner...
Plus she's damage resistant, so in addition to being hard to hit, she shrugs off a great deal of those hits, and no matter how many of them gang up on her, she can't be flanked. While raging, her str bonus is such that any "normal" man she hits (even barely) stays down (safe assumption that in rage her str is at least 22, for +6). Plus she gets to attack 3 times a round (iterative), and she may have feats to help with that, and attacks of opportunity, etc, etc.
It's the problem that a lot of people encounter in these games - we always have "level appropriate" opponents, so while you understand that your character is tough, you're still slugging it out with other people just as tough (usually a little bit tougher, really), or dragons or demons -- whereas in books, most of the foes these people defeat are far more common -- and the ones with class levels are the ones that give them more of a challenge.
A level 11 Barbarian Sonja would be able to walk through most villages and take out the whole thing (barring magic stopping her) -- and I would say that few enough people can do that sort of thing that it would make her one of the best.
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So much for being annoyed by the "Anti-Chainmail Bikini League."You don't actually. You can allow the chainmail bikini and disallow Leia's bra and skirt. Or allow both, or disallow both, or whatever.::eyeroll::
Yes, you're right. You can allow one and disallow the other.
You just can't do that and then pretend you're being a reasonable GM, because you're clearly being arbitrary and capricious. I didn't think I needed to say that, but behold the power of the internet...
Que? When I said "The Anti-Chainmail Bikini League," I was referring to the group of quasi-feminist gamers who whine mightily about how the mere existence of chainmail bikinis in fantasy art is utterly destroying the self-esteem of women and absolute proof of how all guy gamers are basement dwelling troglodytes and members of the He-Man Woman Hater's Club. If, for some reason, you want to find them they hang out in Astrid's Parlor on the WOTC forums, where they have spent the last seven years or so counting nipples in fantasy art in order to prove that Gary Gygax hates women, or something. Sometimes they show up here to (roguerogue is a member, but he's the only one I can recall off the top of my head).
Trying to argue (in seriousness) that a chainmail bikini could plausibly function as armor on an internet forum is like casting a summoning spell. It draws them out of the woodwork. Better to deflate that argument in advance by simply acknowledging that chainmail bikinis are not intended to serve as arm, but simply ornamentation.
The mere fact that we are discussing Red Sonja, the queen of the chainmail bikini, is enough to draw their attention. We're lucky none of them have shown up to tell us all how misogynistic we are.
An 11th level character may be awesome in some local village, but on the world scale she'd be inconsequential really. Sure enough, she might merit a story because she's interesting, but she couldn't be called one of the best unless she was operating in her own level-limited microcosm.
Many of the Pathfinder VCs are 11th level, or near enough, and they're just the middle management of one organisation out of many. What about standing armies with their champions and generals?
The Gamemastery guide lists highest level spellcasting avalable in a town based on size. 9th level casters are available in a large town. 11th level casters are available in a small city. 13th level casters are available in a large city, and a metropolis like Absolom has 15th level casters available to sell spellcasting services.
If even a small city can sport 11th level spellcasters then they may be uncommon, but they're not all that rare. Looking at the NPC gallery, 11th level would put her on a par with Bandit Lords, Coliseum Champions, criminal Guild Masters, Crusader Saints, Cult Leaders, Pirate Captains, Bounty Hunters, Military Generals, Captains (of a ship), a Sage, a High Priest, Tribal Chieftan and my favourite - Celebrity Bards. It would put her three levels below a Master at a Fighting School, or even a King. If the captain of a boat is comparable level that makes her pretty average.
I know PC levels are better than many NPC levels, but even so... I guess it depends whether she's famous for her combat skill, or her red hair. :-)
Edit: I was looking at CR. The Master of a Fighting School is 15th level and Red Sonja must surely be that kind of level, if not a little better. I'd put her at 16th or 17th, with no epic rules.
The mere fact that we are discussing Red Sonja, the queen of the chainmail bikini, is enough to draw their attention. We're lucky none of them have shown up to tell us all how misogynistic we are.
Actually, it is true that we haven't heard anything from UGM's wife yet, and this is supposed to be her idea.
Yes, it is fine that he started, but it might be better if she read/commented on some of this stuff herself. ;)
The mere fact that we are discussing Red Sonja, the queen of the chainmail bikini, is enough to draw their attention. We're lucky none of them have shown up to tell us all how misogynistic we are.Actually, it is true that we haven't heard anything from UGM's wife yet, and this is supposed to be her idea.
Yes, it is fine that he started, but it might be better if she read/commented on some of this stuff herself. ;)
If she really wanted to play Red Sonja she wouldn't just comment, she'd finish it - brutally!
She actually works really well as a scimitar wielding savage barbarian --> maybe not quite right in context,but in game ability. The spoiler has stats including Combat Expertise "on" (-2/+3).
Female Human (Keleshite) Barbarian (Savage Barbarian) 9
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
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DEFENSE
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AC 26, touch 25, flat-footed 13 (+6 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +7 dodge)
hp 95 (9d12+18)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=13); Resist Naked Courage +3
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee +3 Scimitar +16/+11 (1d6+9/18-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +13/+8 (1d3+2/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 18/22, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +9; CMB +11; CMD 36
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse
Traits Charming, Threatening Defender
Skills Acrobatics +18, Appraise +6, Bluff +5, Climb +6, Diplomacy +6, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +13, Knowledge: Geography +2, Perception +9, Perform: Dance +3, Ride +12, Survival +10, Swim +6
Languages Common, Kelish, Osiriani
SQ Boasting Taunt (Ex), Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Guarded Stance +2 (2r) (Ex), Increase Damage Reduction (Ex), Intimidating Glare (Ex), Rage (22 rounds/day) (Ex)
Combat Gear +3 Scimitar; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Ring of Protection, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Boasting Taunt (Ex) Intimidate check while raging also shakes target.
Charming +1 Bluff/Diplomacy/save DC for a language-dependant spell vs. targets who could be sexually attracted to you.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Guarded Stance +2 (2r) (Ex) Gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC vs. melee attacks while raging.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=13) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 13+.
Increase Damage Reduction (Ex) While raging, your DR increases by 1.
Intimidating Glare (Ex) While raging, use Intimidate to shake your opponents.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Naked Courage +3 (Ex) +3 AC and save vs. fear when not wearing armor.
Rage (22 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
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But that's the classic trope, you don't get to bed the Amazon until you defeat her somehow.
Yeah, the idea of a man proving his worth to a woman so that he can marry her is a tale older than dirt. Or at least it's probably older than writing.
The notes may have changed, but this looks like a variation on the same tune.