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Walden.Speaking of which, John Porcellino's graphic novel version of Walden is quite good.
Need to read my copy of Walden. Have yet to finish it. Graphic Novel huh?
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excellent point, and one that I ran into a lot while tutoring and in school. Yea, Shakespeare is amazing if you pick him up on your own, but he is not nearly as good when he is being forced on you by a 50+yo man who is desperately trying to live out his youth through you.Yeah, my experience with the novel was outside of school. I can't imagine what I would've done if I'd've been assigned it for class. Well, actually, I can: I wouldn't have read it, like I did with every other book my Jr. English teacher assigned. School sucks!Amen to that. The problem with assigning classics to high school kids is that 99% of kids that age lack the life experience needed to make the classics even vaguely relevant to them. I'm glad I waited until I was a lot older, with a lot more water under my personal bridge, before I tried tackling Moby Dick or Walden.
I could not agree more. Also some of the jokes you just do not "get" as a kid.
Yeah the ancestral homeland is unknown to us for the most part. Its somewhere in the realm known as France.
Mon frere!
Ah ha of course I responded to Crimson's post first. I should have known it was you ...or rather your wife. Seems your wife an I have some family ties. As I am also related to one Giles Corey as well. I would be interested in finding out where that matches up. I am Allan Douglas Parker IV (yes I know a little pretentious but ut is who I am).I believe Patrick told me that story about his ancestor before.My wife's ancestors actually. My ancestors were island-dwelling monkeys from the Hebredies who made it over to Canuckistan in the mid 18th Century. My wife is the one with an actual Yankee pedigree.
Well, howdy cousin-in-law! LOL
My wife's family in that area had the surnames Brumby and Chandler I think. She knows it better, she's big into her family tree. Yeah, it's amazing how many people have common ancestors around here. The only thing weirder I've found is how many people here have ties to Cape Breton. I have bumped into at least six random people who have ended up being my distant cousins through Nova Scotia. Durn quick-breeding Canuckistan monkeys ....
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Ah ha of course I responded to Crimson's post first. I should have known it was you ...or rather your wife. Seems your wife an I have some family ties. As I am also related to one Giles Corey as well. I would be interested in finding out where that matches up. I am Allan Douglas Parker IV (yes I know a little pretentious but ut is who I am).I believe Patrick told me that story about his ancestor before.My wife's ancestors actually. My ancestors were island-dwelling monkeys from the Hebredies who made it over to Canuckistan in the mid 18th Century. My wife is the one with an actual Yankee pedigree.Well, howdy cousin-in-law! LOL
My wife's family in that area had the surnames Brumby and Chandler I think. She knows it better, she's big into her family tree. Yeah, it's amazing how many people have common ancestors around here. The only thing weirder I've found is how many people here have ties to Cape Breton. I have bumped into at least six random people who have ended up being my distant cousins through Nova Scotia. Durn quick-breeding Canuckistan monkeys ....
Funny when they were kicked out of France my family was sent to Nova Scotia. Then they got deported from their and ended up in Louisiana.
Funny when they were kicked out of France my family was sent to Nova Scotia. Then they got deported from their and ended up in Louisiana.Ah ha of course I responded to Crimson's post first. I should have known it was you ...or rather your wife. Seems your wife an I have some family ties. As I am also related to one Giles Corey as well. I would be interested in finding out where that matches up. I am Allan Douglas Parker IV (yes I know a little pretentious but ut is who I am).I believe Patrick told me that story about his ancestor before.My wife's ancestors actually. My ancestors were island-dwelling monkeys from the Hebredies who made it over to Canuckistan in the mid 18th Century. My wife is the one with an actual Yankee pedigree.Well, howdy cousin-in-law! LOL
My wife's family in that area had the surnames Brumby and Chandler I think. She knows it better, she's big into her family tree. Yeah, it's amazing how many people have common ancestors around here. The only thing weirder I've found is how many people here have ties to Cape Breton. I have bumped into at least six random people who have ended up being my distant cousins through Nova Scotia. Durn quick-breeding Canuckistan monkeys ....
And more than likely we have cousins in common as well, since the folks up in Cape Breton have some Arcadian roots as well (A few managed to dodge the Brits and hide in the hills until the coast was clear).
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And more than likely we have cousins in common as well, since the folks up in Cape Breton have some Arcadian roots as well (A few managed to dodge the Brits and hide in the hills until the coast was clear).Funny when they were kicked out of France my family was sent to Nova Scotia. Then they got deported from their and ended up in Louisiana.Ah ha of course I responded to Crimson's post first. I should have known it was you ...or rather your wife. Seems your wife an I have some family ties. As I am also related to one Giles Corey as well. I would be interested in finding out where that matches up. I am Allan Douglas Parker IV (yes I know a little pretentious but ut is who I am).I believe Patrick told me that story about his ancestor before.My wife's ancestors actually. My ancestors were island-dwelling monkeys from the Hebredies who made it over to Canuckistan in the mid 18th Century. My wife is the one with an actual Yankee pedigree.Well, howdy cousin-in-law! LOL
My wife's family in that area had the surnames Brumby and Chandler I think. She knows it better, she's big into her family tree. Yeah, it's amazing how many people have common ancestors around here. The only thing weirder I've found is how many people here have ties to Cape Breton. I have bumped into at least six random people who have ended up being my distant cousins through Nova Scotia. Durn quick-breeding Canuckistan monkeys ....
Acadians... meaning "this is a good place to camp" :)
OK, I need to see this now... I just gained a lot of respect for Pattinson and Stewart. I know they can be good actors (see: Little Ashes and Into the Wild), but I always thought they dug their roles in Twilight. Shows how much I know.
Learning that was one of the reasons I gave the movies a shot. It's really funny to watch them and imagine the actors' internal monologues. Do it with a friend and you'll be making your own callbacks in no time.
I will say this, though. Pattinson is a very pretty man and I can totally get how Bella would have an unhealthy attraction to an abusive stalker if he looked like that. It also ought to be at least possible to get some kind of decent supernatural romance out of the story, but Meyer was far from equal to the task.
The only thing weirder I've found is how many people here have ties to Cape Breton. I have bumped into at least six random people who have ended up being my distant cousins through Nova Scotia. Durn quick-breeding Canuckistan monkeys ....
If Cape Cod is anything like New Hampshire, it's overflowing with former French-Canadians. Two words for you: lumber mills. EDIT: Two more words: Textile factories.
In the Old Testament, the serpent in the Garden of Eden is never specifically referred to as the devil in disguise. This only entered the literary consciousness when John Milton made the connection in Paradise Lost (though people had probably been making the connection between Genesis and Revelations* for centuries previous).
Well, I'm sure the more religiously-inclined can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that, based on the Old Testament itself, there is no real connection between Satan and our modern conception of The Devil.
In the Book of Job, Satan (The Adversary) is hanging out with God (presumably in Heaven?), shooting the breeze and making bets, which has led some writers (I read this a long time ago, so no sources, sorry) concluded that Satan was basically God's prosecutor.
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In the Old Testament, the serpent in the Garden of Eden is never specifically referred to as the devil in disguise. This only entered the literary consciousness when John Milton made the connection in Paradise Lost (though people had probably been making the connection between Genesis and Revelations* for centuries previous).
Well, I'm sure the more religiously-inclined can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that, based on the Old Testament itself, there is no real connection between Satan and our modern conception of The Devil.
In the Book of Job, Satan (The Adversary) is hanging out with God (presumably in Heaven?), shooting the breeze and making bets, which has led some writers (I read this a long time ago, so no sources, sorry) concluded that Satan was basically God's prosecutor.
very simplistic, but yes.
very simplistic, but yes.In the Old Testament, the serpent in the Garden of Eden is never specifically referred to as the devil in disguise. This only entered the literary consciousness when John Milton made the connection in Paradise Lost (though people had probably been making the connection between Genesis and Revelations* for centuries previous).
Well, I'm sure the more religiously-inclined can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that, based on the Old Testament itself, there is no real connection between Satan and our modern conception of The Devil.
In the Book of Job, Satan (The Adversary) is hanging out with God (presumably in Heaven?), shooting the breeze and making bets, which has led some writers (I read this a long time ago, so no sources, sorry) concluded that Satan was basically God's prosecutor.
Okay, so what's the deal with Lucifer and the fallen angels story? Is that separate from Satan?
And if that's the case, do you know when the two came together?
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very simplistic, but yes.In the Old Testament, the serpent in the Garden of Eden is never specifically referred to as the devil in disguise. This only entered the literary consciousness when John Milton made the connection in Paradise Lost (though people had probably been making the connection between Genesis and Revelations* for centuries previous).
Well, I'm sure the more religiously-inclined can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that, based on the Old Testament itself, there is no real connection between Satan and our modern conception of The Devil.
In the Book of Job, Satan (The Adversary) is hanging out with God (presumably in Heaven?), shooting the breeze and making bets, which has led some writers (I read this a long time ago, so no sources, sorry) concluded that Satan was basically God's prosecutor.
Okay, so what's the deal with Lucifer and the fallen angels story? Is that separate from Satan?
And if that's the case, do you know when the two came together?
That is longer than I can put together during lunch and there is no way to fill it all out quickly.
Satan or Ha-Satan in Hebrew seem to have been a title that means sort of a divine prosecuting attorney. Lucifer or light-bringer, an Arch-Angel seems to have been a Satan who in Revelations, is also seen as THE DRAGON and fought a WAR IN HEAVEN or the heavens depends on the translation, against GOD and his Angels.
This is also hinted at, if I remember correctly in the book on Daniel. Which is part of the reason people so liberally intertwine Daniel and Revelations together. There is an obscure reference that is used to also combine the serpent in Genesis into the same being. I believe most scholars do not think that this is in fact the case.
I am sure I have missed something or got something out of order here. I will try to get better info for you later.
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Revelation 12:7-9 (New International Version)
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?
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Actually, that's not in the Bible.
Revelation 12:7-9 (New International Version)
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Genesis 3:13
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."|
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I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?
I have heard that too. What is funny about that though is the staff of Moses with the twisted copper serpents on it, used to heal. Sounds a lot like the wand of Mercury to me. Also keep in mind that there were many serpent cults, including Isis, if I remember, in the Mid east. Mairkurian would be the one best able to actually answer these questions. Double PHD in the study after all.
Thank you! Seeds for research at my fingertips!
CJ's the best!
Court Fool's pretty alright, too!
Court Fool's pretty alright, too!
Humps Doodlebug Anklebiter's leg.
Down, boy, down!
I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?I have heard that too. What is funny about that though is the staff of Moses with the twisted copper serpents on it, used to heal. Sounds a lot like the wand of Mercury to me. Also keep in mind that there were many serpent cults, including Isis, if I remember, in the Mid east. Mairkurian would be the one best able to actually answer these questions. Double PHD in the study after all.
This link, which is not at all for the squeamish, may shed light on the issue.
Take that, Botfly fan club. The D.M. is 100 times grosser IMHO.
Can anyone recommend an anthology of Old Testament stories that approaches them from a mythological, rather than theological basis?
I feel like I have the story of Jesus down pat, but I know there's all kinds of D&Desque stuff hanging out in the Bible that I'm missing out on.
Ideally, I would like a volume comparable to Roger Lancelyn Green or Robert Graves. Any ideas?
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Can anyone recommend an anthology of Old Testament stories that approaches them from a mythological, rather than theological basis?
I feel like I have the story of Jesus down pat, but I know there's all kinds of D&Desque stuff hanging out in the Bible that I'm missing out on.
Ideally, I would like a volume comparable to Roger Lancelyn Green or Robert Graves. Any ideas?
RLG was my childhood hero. So much good stuff he introduced me to.
Thank you! Seeds for research at my fingertips!
CJ's the best!
Court Fool's pretty alright, too!
The Rainbow Serpent is a very important part of the creation stories of some Australian Aboriginal nations (tribes - nations is a better word as there were distinct differences and territories).
The Rainbow Serpent is seen as the inhabitant of permanent waterholes and is in control of life's most precious resource, oils and waters. He is the sometimes unpredictable Rainbow Serpent, who vies with the ever-reliable Sun, that replenishes the stores of water, forming gullies and deep channels as he slithered across the landscape, allowing for the collection and distribution of water.
Dreamtime stories tell of the great spirits and totems during creation, in animal and human form they moulded the barren and featureless earth. The Rainbow Serpent came from beneath the ground and created huge ridges, mountains and gorges as it pushed upward. The Rainbow Serpent is known as Ngalyod by the Gunwinggu and Borlung by the Miali. He is a serpent of immense proportions which inhabits deep permanent waterholes.
Serpent stories vary according to environmental differences. Tribes of the monsoonal areas depict an epic interaction of the Sun, Serpent and wind in their Dreamtime stories, whereas tribes of the central desert experience less drastic seasonal shifts and their stories reflect this.
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I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?I have heard that too. What is funny about that though is the staff of Moses with the twisted copper serpents on it, used to heal. Sounds a lot like the wand of Mercury to me. Also keep in mind that there were many serpent cults, including Isis, if I remember, in the Mid east. Mairkurian would be the one best able to actually answer these questions. Double PHD in the study after all.This link, which is not at all for the squeamish, may shed light on the issue.
** spoiler omitted **
Then I will check it out after work.
I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?
In other circumstances I would do a bit of spot research and throw you a link or two but I'm in some pain (broke a toe yesterday) and dealing with some family stuff. So I have only memory to offer:
In Greek myth, Apollo slew Python who was some kind of serpent and did something with the body so it gave off gas that the Greeks used to get mentally disturbed women whacky on to tell the future. I think usually a trio of them would sit over the fumes, selected for being a bit touched in the head and I think also old and unpleasant so no one would miss them much, and ramble. The priests made good money off interpreting that. Sort of a halfway house between getting it from the snake's mouth and reading entrails.
The Ophites were a Gnostic Christian sect that revered the serpent of Eden as a being who brought enlightenment. It's a fair read of the story, really. The much more popular fanon is, well, peculiar to say the least.
I'm vaguely aware of some Dionysian mystics allegedly having ceremonies that involved snakes but I heard the Dionysian business from a teacher who proved desperately ill-informed on other matters.
Separate topic: the caduceus as a medical symbol is an error from some centuries ago. It's a symbol of commerce, which I guess makes it darkly fit for the American medical non-system. The proper Greek stick and snake symbol of medicine would be the Rod of Aesclepius, which has just the one snake.
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I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?In other circumstances I would do a bit of spot research and throw you a link or two but I'm in some pain (broke a toe yesterday) and dealing with some family stuff. So I have only memory to offer:
In Greek myth, Apollo slew Python who was some kind of serpent and did something with the body so it gave off gas that the Greeks used to get mentally disturbed women whacky on to tell the future. I think usually a trio of them would sit over the fumes, selected for being a bit touched in the head and I think also old and unpleasant so no one would miss them much, and ramble. The priests made good money off interpreting that. Sort of a halfway house between getting it from the snake's mouth and reading entrails.
The Ophites were a Gnostic Christian sect that revered the serpent of Eden as a being who brought enlightenment. It's a fair read of the story, really. The much more popular fanon is, well, peculiar to say the least.
I'm vaguely aware of some Dionysian mystics allegedly having ceremonies that involved snakes but I heard the Dionysian business from a teacher who proved desperately ill-informed on other matters.
Separate topic: the caduceus as a medical symbol is an error from some centuries ago. It's a symbol of commerce, which I guess makes it darkly fit for the American medical non-system. The proper Greek stick and snake symbol of medicine would be the Rod of Aesclepius, which has just the one snake.
Sorry to hear about the toe, and family issues, you have my sympathies. Having to deal with those tomorrow myself, funeral.
Thanks to Samnell I found the word I was looking for.
The Nehushtan, in the Bible, was a sacred object in the form of a snake of brass upon a pole. It sounds almost exactly like the Rod of Aesclepius.
Sorry to hear about the toe, and family issues, you have my sympathies. Having to deal with those tomorrow myself, funeral.
My condolences.
Latest news is that my family issues shall probably not be as severe as feared. Also now that I'm not walking on it every fifteen or twenty minutes the toe is doing much better.
Thanks to Samnell I found the word I was looking for.The Nehushtan, in the Bible, was a sacred object in the form of a snake of brass upon a pole. It sounds almost exactly like the Rod of Aesclepius.
You're welcome. :)
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I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?In Greek myth, Apollo slew Python who was some kind of serpent and did something with the body so it gave off gas that the Greeks used to get mentally disturbed women whacky on to tell the future. I think usually a trio of them would sit over the fumes, selected for being a bit touched in the head and I think also old and unpleasant so no one would miss them much, and ramble. The priests made good money off interpreting that. Sort of a halfway house between getting it from the snake's mouth and reading entrails.
Just one woman, old and virtuous, who sat on a tripod. She was known as the Pythia. She was not regarded as mentally disturbed, getting visions from Apollo was an amazing talent that required a virtuous individual.
To really understand the bible, just watch how the Devil developed. A lot of what we believe about angels and the Fall isn't biblical, but comes from sources like The Book of Enoch and Jubilees.
Enoch is Biblical to the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox churches. Part of it is also quoted in Jude (1:14-15), which is in pretty much every complete Christian Bible I'm aware of.
Jubilees is Biblical to the Ethiopian Orthodox church and by one sect of Jews that also hails from Ethiopia.
So what's Biblical isn't in the Bible either, except where it is. :) The ancients didn't have neat and tidy ideas that the Bible as a whole was divinely-inspired and/or that it was alone in being so inspired. Even late in canon formation several popular extra-canonical works appear to have had both considerable popularity and some degree of theological influence over various species of proto-orthodoxy.
The past is messy enough that it's defied persistent attempts to clean it up.
Gruumash I'm taking this thread off my focus feed, so if you feel like replying to me, you can always find me over in FAWTL, K? Peace out.
Just one woman, old and virtuous, who sat on a tripod. She was known as the Pythia. She was not regarded as mentally disturbed, getting visions from Apollo was an amazing talent that required a virtuous individual.I had heard that the serpent was often a symbol for wisdom in Pagan religions. Any credence to this?In Greek myth, Apollo slew Python who was some kind of serpent and did something with the body so it gave off gas that the Greeks used to get mentally disturbed women whacky on to tell the future. I think usually a trio of them would sit over the fumes, selected for being a bit touched in the head and I think also old and unpleasant so no one would miss them much, and ramble. The priests made good money off interpreting that. Sort of a halfway house between getting it from the snake's mouth and reading entrails.
I suppose that the disturbing sequence in Book VI of Aeneid in which the Cumaean Sibyl is possessed by Apollo gives us a glimpse into the world of the ancient religious imagination. A very powerful depiction of bizarre religious sexual violence.
On a related note, I found this footnote in Robert Graves's Greek Myths 1 fascinating:
It was at Eleusis ('advent'), a Mycenaean city, that the great Eleusinian Mysteries were celebrated, in the month called Boedromion ('running for help'). Demeter's ecstatic initiates symbolically consummated her love affair with Iasius, or Triptolemus, or Zeus, in an inner recess of the shrine, by working a phallic object up and down a woman's top-boot: hence Eleusis seems to be a worn-down form of Eilythuies, '[the temple] of her who rages in a lurking place'. The mystagogues, dressed as shepherds, then entered with joyful shouts, and displayed a winnowing-fan, containing the child Brimus, son of Brimo ('angry one'), the immediate fruit of this ritual marriage. Brimo was a title of Demeter's, and Brimus a synonym for Plutus; but his celebrants knew him best as Iacchus--from the riotous hymn, the Iachus, which was sung on the sixth day of the Mysteries during a torchlight procession from Demeter's temple.
Now, there are some slight methodological problems with Graves (for example he is accused of making stuff up), but still, I'd love to play in that campaign.
EDIT: That being said, Graves's actual telling of the myths are beautifully-writen. His footnotes, if taken with extreme suspicion, are fascinating reading.
Sorry about driving you out of your thread, CJ :(
I want to know what CRD means.
If I was to guess, it would be Christian Religious Discussion.
I thought it was going so well, too.
I want to know what CRD means.If I was to guess, it would be Christian Religious Discussion.
I thought it was going so well, too.
Actually it stands for Civil Religious Discussion, an old OTD thread that is anything but what its title says.
Some of the underbridge squatters from that place are now bringing it's flavor here. Thusly, along with the red harlequin, I bid you all adieu
*blink*
[sigh of relief]
I thought I had somehow offended you with my comments on the fine New England residents of Quebecois descent.
On the other hand, I love trolls!
I wasn't trying to go there.
Nor was I. But apparently remarking on diversity of religious canons is trolling or something.
The rules are made up as they go.
Would it help if we talked about the diversity of religious beliefs in Islam?
I'd actually like that conversation, since it's not a topic I'm very up on and would be a great chance to pick up new stuff. I would say this is an odd thread for it, but apparently the thread's been abandoned by those concerned so it's a moot point.
Here's a question I've had but been too lazy to look up:
Is all that Arabian Nights stuff take place in a pre-Islamic Arabia?
'Cos they don't seem congruous with what little I know about the theology of Islam.
If you mean A Thousand and One Nights, the stories are ostensibly set in an islamic world, but I'm sure plenty of them was first told, in one version or another, earlier than that.
Some of them, though, probably do stem from after the Arabic or even Turkish conquests, and others might have been pulled into the story-cycle from areas conquered later (such as India).