In the last session we had a situation that seemed a little odd. A Large-sized creature (also pretty strong) had grappled a Gnome. The expectation was that he could spend a Standard action to grab the little guy, and then move away. It was pointed out however that both the grappler and the grapplee gain the Grappled condition which prevents movement. The Large creature would have to wait until its next turn and spend a Standard action to make a successful Grapple check to move, and even then only up to half speed. Is this correct, despite the relative size differences?
One other wrinkle. What happens if the Grapplee is rendered unconscious?
a) That's correct; you need to start the turn grappling if you want to move the grapple. Note that the Large creature could have used the Drag combat maneuver (from the APG) on the halfling if it just wanted to move the little guy.
b) If you're unconscious, then your opponent doesn't need to grapple you in order to pick you up and move you around (IMO).
In the last session we had a situation that seemed a little odd. A Large-sized creature (also pretty strong) had grappled a Gnome. The expectation was that he could spend a Standard action to grab the little guy, and then move away. It was pointed out however that both the grappler and the grapplee gain the Grappled condition which prevents movement. The Large creature would have to wait until its next turn and spend a Standard action to make a successful Grapple check to move, and even then only up to half speed. Is this correct, despite the relative size differences?
One other wrinkle. What happens if the Grapplee is rendered unconscious?
That sounds right. Standard action to maintain the grapple, and move 1/2 your movement. There are no extra conditions based on size that I can find. Same rules would apply to a colossal grappler vs. a fine target, I suppose, which gets a bit ridiculous.
If the Grapplee is unconscious, I guess there are two ways you could go. First is to treat him as helpless and continue to apply the grapple rules. Second is to treat him as an object, and just use encumbrance rules.
I think the latter is more realistic, although there are many combat situations where continuing to apply the standard combat rules to helpless creatures is appropriate. DM's call on that one.
There are no extra conditions based on size that I can find. Same rules would apply to a colossal grappler vs. a fine target, I suppose, which gets a bit ridiculous.
I concur on both points, that there is nothing stated for size conditions (other than increasingly changing modifiers to CMB/D), and that it is ridiculous that a Great Wyrm could not move its full movement rate while "grappling" a mouse. I think the rule of three size categories difference that is used for occupying squares would make a good house rule.
If you are three or more categories larger that the creature you're grappling, you do not need to make a successful grapple check to move. You still need to make a grapple check as a standard to maintain the grapple (and thus bring the target along with you) and to deal damage or any of the other options available to you. Movement in this fashion provokes AoO's as it would normally, however the target being moved with you does not.
How does that sound? Any potential gotchas?
How does that sound? Any potential gotchas?
Probably the easiest houserule is that when there is a large enough size disparity (3+ size categories), the larger creature is not considered grappled. They are still in a grapple and need to maintain it with a standard action (which allows one of several effects), but they don't gain the grappled condition. This means they are free to take a move action, and don't suffer the other grappled penalties.
Only condition I'd place on that is the creature needs to determine at the start of the round if they wish to continue the grapple or not. That's to avoid the arbitrary strangeness that could happen if you did a move-grapple check (fail, oops), vs. a grapple check (fail) first.
|
I've heard mention of being able to take a -20 penalty on grapple attempts to not gain the grappled condition yourself.
I'm not sure if that is a special ability some monsters have, or if that's a general rule. I couldn't find anything on it, but frankly I didn't look hard.
Even if it isn't a rule, I'd generally allow my players to use this, though I'd definitely keep an eye out and nix it if things got ridiculous.
:)
EDIT: Nevermind, it's part of Grab.
How does that sound? Any potential gotchas?Probably the easiest houserule is that when there is a large enough size disparity (3+ size categories), the larger creature is not considered grappled. They are still in a grapple and need to maintain it with a standard action (which allows one of several effects), but they don't gain the grappled condition. This means they are free to take a move action, and don't suffer the other grappled penalties
Easier, but not one I'd agree with. A smaller creature should have the chance to grapple a much larger one, even if it's a small chance. I'd describe it as some sort of joint lock. A properly skilled halfling Monk should have the chance to bring down a T-Rex by twisting its toe just so... :)
I've heard mention of being able to take a -20 penalty on grapple attempts to not gain the grappled condition yourself.
I'm not sure if that is a special ability some monsters have, or if that's a general rule. I couldn't find anything on it, but frankly I didn't look hard.
Even if it isn't a rule, I'd generally allow my players to use this, though I'd definitely keep an eye out and nix it if things got ridiculous.
That's part of the Grab special monster ability, which didn't come into play in my particular situation. It has seen use at the table though, by a kraken-like creature that had two PC's grappled while still attacking with other tentacles.
Easier, but not one I'd agree with. A smaller creature should have the chance to grapple a much larger one, even if it's a small chance. I'd describe it as some sort of joint lock. A properly skilled halfling Monk should have the chance to bring down a T-Rex by twisting its toe just so... :)
Lol. Good to keep an open mind about that, but I can't really see it being an issue in practice. If the halfling monk's best option is to grapple the gargantuan creature, methinks it is time for a new character. :-).
I did amuse myself by pondering a halfling monk that succeeds on the grapple, and then follows it up with a pin the next round on the highly embarrassed T-Rex. Sign him up for the WWE!